Who is a better member of society??

a reply to: Bluntone22

Because society has already chosen...

Atleast half the stories of the really successful buisnessmen are filled with deserted children and multiple divorces..

And everyone of them recieved countless dinners in their honor.

a reply to: and14263

I'm not sure what you mean by over generations when it is specifically targeting the extremes of both ends..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Say you take the 2 best and worst case scenerios and join them..

A) a man who is an excellent husband, friend and father who is just atrocious at the 9-5 thing.. can barely keep a job, if they can keep it at all..


B) a man who is an excellent employee and buisness man who is just atrocious to their friend and family..

What should society reward and revere?

Which one would you want as your next door neighbor??

The one who gives the most back to that society from his actions. The way I see it, your question doesn't focus on the man as much as the society in which he lives.

Based only on the information you gave,...man B. Even the truest of love and friendships will disintegrate into nothing if you don't have the money to sustain either one. Ever seen a homeless couple with a love you envy? Neither have I.

So man B is a terrible man on a personal level. Bring the home the bacon long enough and his family will learn to overlook his shortcomings, because his strong suit gives them a comfortable life.

And man A is Jesus reincarnated. Good for him. Don't provide for your family long enough and you won't be considered a man. Not to mention you won't have a family for very long.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Say you take the 2 best and worst case scenerios and join them..

A) a man who is an excellent husband, friend and father who is just atrocious at the 9-5 thing.. can barely keep a job, if they can keep it at all..


B) a man who is an excellent employee and buisness man who is just atrocious to their friend and family..

What should society reward and revere?

Which one would you want as your next door neighbor??

Imho we are doing it completely backwards...

How is some CEO who is just horrible to their family, considered a pillar of the community, while your average person who devotes his entire life to his friends and family but is bad at buisness is considered a drain on society???

Who ever decided that was a good idea?!?!

The thing you fail to realize is the amount of sacrifice it takes to be Person B. To be extremely successful requires an extreme focus and in many cases, means you have to sacrifice relationships and other things that many of us take for granted. This means missed family dinners, vacations, graduations, and other things.

It is not to say that these people are bad, but they often have wrecked personal lives because their focus is their profession. The vast majority of people I've met who have been successful entrepreneurs, actors, politicians, or ANYONE who is at the top of their respective fields tend to have personality disorders to some degree.

We all have to make choices as to what we are willing to tolerate and sacrifice.

To answer your question, I'd say Person B is of more value in general. As some have pointed out, by definition, it is hard to be a good father, etc if you can't put food on the table. To be clear, this does not mean being rich. My grandfather worked TWO minimum wage jobs, had a third grade education, and was functionally illiterate. However, he was one of the best men I've ever known. He provided for his family.

I've been fairly successful by most standards. However, I have a limit as to what I am willing to sacrifice. My family and the time I spend with them are far more important to me so have not reached my "potential". My attitude has always been that when I am on my death bed, I won't be wishing I spent more time at work or just got that last promotion. I will be reminiscing about the great memories I have with the ones I love.

a reply to: Bone75

Why?!?!

People who are great at buisness ignore their children and cheat on their wives daily..

Why would you assume it one way and not the other?!?!

a reply to: Edumakated

I' at specifically referring to those in the ends of the spectrum as I think they are a good example.

There are countless people who pull off both to varying degrees..

However, a person with out a decent job is considered a "bad person" usually. Reguardless of their personal lives.. if they can't hold down a job they are considered garbage by most..

While a very successful businessman is exactly the opposite.. only their buisness ventures count and their personal life is irrelevant..



But someone who isn't good at buisness is inherently bad?!?!

I think if you ask most people in a vacuum they say family comes first.. yet in reality it seems to. Be quite the opposite.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Bit if choice a is a stay at home dad, then we start asking the same dichotomous set of questions about his wife.

Who is the better member of society ... the woman who ...

If she does nothing except work and achieve, is she a good wife or mother and which one is the better member of society?

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Edumakated

I' at specifically referring to those in the ends of the spectrum as I think they are a good example.

There are countless people who pull off both to varying degrees..

However, a person with out a decent job is considered a "bad person" usually. Reguardless of their personal lives.. if they can't hold down a job they are considered garbage by most..

While a very successful businessman is exactly the opposite.. only their buisness ventures count and their personal life is irrelevant..



But someone who isn't good at buisness is inherently bad?!?!

I think if you ask most people in a vacuum they say family comes first.. yet in reality it seems to. Be quite the opposite.

Society doesn't value able bodied people who cannot take care of themselves...

A successful person who is a dirtbag is still a dirtbag. However, most people don't see them being a dirtbag. It is like celebrities. All people know is their public persona and many of them have absolutely trash personas. This is why Person B may get a pass because vast majority of people simply are not in a position to know them personally.

On the other hand, Person A will not get a pass because people will only see a loser if you aren't taking care of yourself. For example, there are a few meth heads/drug addicts I see all the time begging in my town. My only interaction with these guys/gals is them being a dirtbag drug addict. They may very well be nice people sometimes, but the reality is I have to judge them on what I see. I'm not in a position to delve into their personal lives. So as far as I am concerned, they are dirt bags.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Guess what? Most people who can't hold down a job aren't winning at the other roles in their life either because they tend to have no work ethic and you can't be a successful house husband without a work ethic because being a husband and father takes that much.

However, if all you can do is be husband and father and your family has no means of support ... how are you being a good husband and father? You're all living in a box under an overpass somewhere.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

While I agree with crazyewok that society should encourage a a balance in that sound principles of life are consistently practiced in all areas of life, most of us are 'unbalanced' in some way or another and insisting upon such a consistency is counterproductive.

A person may be highly honest at work and highly dishonest at home or at church. Integrity, in action, speech and thought, is a lifetime goal not a absolute requirement of decency. Anyone of us would be found wanting if judged by such an absolute standard. We live in a relative world and by insisting on the performance of absolute standards we encourage increasing levels of non-coherence in others lives.

Let's be real - we all do some things well, in some areas of our lives and are also failures at some things and in some areas. That's what being human is.

This delusional demand, on ourselves and others, hinders our attempts to be better people in society.

a reply to: ketsuko

You mean..

"I assume most people who don't work don't treat their families well either.."

Because if you ask any wife or child they would rather have a father there who loved them, than a house in the burbs...

a reply to: ketsuko

Umm, but this thread is asking about the man/husband/father. The only reason it's even an "issue" is because many people still expect males to act a certain way.

Ironically, I think most people who expect men to be the providers would openly agree that the good wife & mother is better for society than the great businesswoman that's a horrible mother.

a reply to: DBCowboy

You should always look deeper before passing judgment. That's how people get conned & duped, by making decisions based on carefully selected & limited details. It's the entire reason judges don't make a decision until all involved parties have presented their argument.

ETA: Besides, this whole thread is just a big "what if".

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: ketsuko

You mean..

"I assume most people who don't work don't treat their families well either.."

Because if you ask any wife or child they would rather have a father there who loved them, than a house in the burbs...

No, I am saying that there takes a great deal of work to be a good member of a family. I spend a good deal of my weekend still working to hold up my end of the family chores so that the house was ready for the week so that all of us could go to work, camp, and our various responsibilities and other activities. We all three did.

And you just spoke in an absolute.

Sorry, you failed to ask this wife. I need a husband who is my partner and works like I do. It wouldn't be enough for him to just be there on couch loving us while he's a lump.

a reply to: ketsuko

Because there are examples of both in society to judge from and compare.