Justice for ALL! Will the left do away with that?

i wish some of you would go down the rabbit hole and do some research before spouting off nonsense. This is ATS by the way. The MSM is all BS and has been for many many years. The corruption runs very very deep. The left vs right is all a sharade. The same people dictating here are part of the same that do so in all countries. This is a global movement. Government and MSM are just the salesman trying to push it all through.

Gripe about Trump all you want. He is doing very very well and has stuck to his guns. He is one of the greatest presidents i have ever seen. This is a war and Trump is basically going it alone.

I am confused. There clearly seems to be some confusion in terms.

The left is being conflated with SJWs which are being conflated with people who aren't liberal...


The left's interest in the legal system is in making it more fair, so that victory doesn't go to the person who can hire the most expensive lawyers. THe left seeks to make justice accessible for everybody no matter how much money they have. Unlike the Right, which is interested in making sure only the richest people have access to victory in the courts.


SJWs are, as the name suggests, interested in social justice for all. This means previously downtrodden groups like women and racial minorities, get access to a level playing field. (And while this might feel like they are being elevated above straight white men, that's not the case, they're just being lifted up to the same level. Many straight white men feel very threatened by this.)


And liberal people... have different views on the role of justice.


So, yeah, I'm very confused by what OP is trying to say here?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ketsuko

n the end, the idea is to enforce equal outcomes in ever way on all of us, but you can never do this on any society composed of individuals.

Exactly. So we can only be 'just' in our own behavior towards others on our personal level.

Laws made with that intent will always advantage some at the expense of others and there are always unintended consequences that allow a few to really profit while some are really burdened.

Laws are for little people for control like you said. Those at the top are exempt.

Yes, it is appearing that way and the reason a tv celebrity can steal an election from our so called 'leaders'. His message was resonating with a lot of people worldwide if for no other reason than he calls em like he sees them. We all object to at least some of them but he has a lot of them laser accurate.

a reply to: Painterz

But in so doing, the left sometimes forgets that the law says what it say, and sometimes that means the law comes down on the side of the rich guy.

You guys sometimes so hate the rich that you automatically assume every rich guy or entity will automatically be in the wrong because the poor guy must be more deserving.

That is not justice.

But, I don't blame you, not really, everything in society is more geared toward making you automatically assume anyone who has some measure of success only found it by cheating others and being dishonest, so they shouldn't win because that's the left's idea of cosmic justice. They have things they don't deserve and took somehow from others.

a reply to: intrptr

The very simplest laws are the hardest to do that with which is why every single bill you see before congress looks like a phone book.

Contrast that with COTUS.

a reply to: ketsuko

Can you point to a time we had justice for all?

Was it back before women could vote? Blacks were segregated?

How about medical testing on mental patients, the radiation poison expirements in St louis, or allowing siphilus to run its coarse after having a cure?

Some of you make America this perfect beacon it is not.


The fact is there is more justice for more people then ever before on an individual level.

As a society we have less freedom which in a huge way is also conservatives fault.

Like expanding Intel to the point we have to hire 25 year old college grads who end up leaking personal info or the Patriot act itself.

Now the doj wants to increase civil asset seizure.

There is no glory day and this is no good party.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Painterz

But in so doing, the left sometimes forgets that the law says what it say, and sometimes that means the law comes down on the side of the rich guy.

You guys sometimes so hate the rich that you automatically assume every rich guy or entity will automatically be in the wrong because the poor guy must be more deserving.

That is not justice.

But, I don't blame you, not really, everything in society is more geared toward making you automatically assume anyone who has some measure of success only found it by cheating others and being dishonest, so they shouldn't win because that's the left's idea of cosmic justice. They have things they don't deserve and took somehow from others.

Yes, you get it. Envy is one of the bad things that it amounts to when you worry about stuff like other peoples pursuit of happiness who have violated laws. Now, I am all on board with fair treatment of the victims by a process whereby there might be a fair assessment of the guilty.

What I mean is the left is destroying the goose that laid the golden egg. Successful people will be and failures in life will be. We meet both in our daily activities. There is no way around the fact that some people find a way to excel by playing within the confines of the rules and regulations society has mutually agreed will be followed. You can't level that out with some special exception 'rule of society' because that becomes loss of other peoples right to pursue happiness.

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Painterz

But in so doing, the left sometimes forgets that the law says what it say, and sometimes that means the law comes down on the side of the rich guy.

You guys sometimes so hate the rich that you automatically assume every rich guy or entity will automatically be in the wrong because the poor guy must be more deserving.

That is not justice.

But, I don't blame you, not really, everything in society is more geared toward making you automatically assume anyone who has some measure of success only found it by cheating others and being dishonest, so they shouldn't win because that's the left's idea of cosmic justice. They have things they don't deserve and took somehow from others.

Yes, you get it. Envy is one of the bad things that it amounts to when you worry about stuff like other peoples pursuit of happiness who have violated laws. Now, I am all on board with fair treatment of the victims by a process whereby there might be a fair assessment of the guilty.

What I mean is the left is destroying the goose that laid the golden egg. Successful people will be and failures in life will be. We meet both in our daily activities. There is no way around the fact that some people find a way to excel by playing within the confines of the rules and regulations society has mutually agreed will be followed. You can't level that out with some special exception 'rule of society' because that becomes loss of other peoples right to pursue happiness.

I don't yhinknots that simple or even close.

The problems we face have plenty of attachment to conservative politics.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: ketsuko

Can you point to a time we had justice for all?

Was it back before women could vote? Blacks were segregated?

How about medical testing on mental patients, the radiation poison expirements in St louis, or allowing siphilus to run its coarse after having a cure?

Some of you make America this perfect beacon it is not.


The fact is there is more justice for more people then ever before on an individual level.

As a society we have less freedom which in a huge way is also conservatives fault.

Like expanding Intel to the point we have to hire 25 year old college grads who end up leaking personal info or the Patriot act itself.

Now the doj wants to increase civil asset seizure.

There is no glory day and this is no good party.

This Republic is an ongoing experiment because the Declaration of (war) Independence was designed to challenge tyranny of government of ancestral dynasties that had ruled for centuries with an iron fist and the Constitution was to define how the people would be able to control the government from self serving corruption.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Painterz

But in so doing, the left sometimes forgets that the law says what it say, and sometimes that means the law comes down on the side of the rich guy.

You guys sometimes so hate the rich that you automatically assume every rich guy or entity will automatically be in the wrong because the poor guy must be more deserving.

That is not justice.

But, I don't blame you, not really, everything in society is more geared toward making you automatically assume anyone who has some measure of success only found it by cheating others and being dishonest, so they shouldn't win because that's the left's idea of cosmic justice. They have things they don't deserve and took somehow from others.

Well of course, yes, the rich person might well be in the right. And the poor person might be wrong. But if the legal system only allows the rich person representation because the costs of lawyers are so high and there is no legal aid to assist the poor person, then that's hardly equal and fair access to justice is it?


I'm not saying all rich people are crooks. I'm just saying it's a principle of the Left that all people should have equal access to justice.

a reply to: Justoneman

True it was set up like a mini revolution every 4 years. It was also largely based on classical liberalism and the work of John Locke first with Roseau, Voltaire, and other enlighten Era works.

My point in the comment you reference is exactly that.

It's messy and gross and ever evolving.

But it's also great, adaptive, and civil I just have an issue when people think one ideology is necessary to be true or valid.

America works best when opposing ideas are aired in a civility and dignity and mutual respect.

I am no fan of Kennedy and McCain as far as a team I would put a bumper sticker on my car but, in John's illness and little bio specials I was reminded of what did once make us great.

It was the civility of opposing ideas discussions and sometimes conversion, sometimes retraction that allowed us to actually be a great place for as many Americans as possible.

I don't think the USA is a beacon of freedom judging by our rates of incarceration:



And top countries:



I guess we are the leaders of the world in something.

This does not appear to be the doing of just one party, but has been growing over the last couple of decades.




But they hate us for our freedoms?

Now where did those civil asset seizure statistic go?

a reply to: Justoneman

I've read your post three times now, and it is still really not making sense to me. You seem to be jumping from criminals who aren't actually criminals because they were framed, to financial success, to the government stealing money from people. I'm not sure what the topic is supposed to be here.

What exactly is it that makes socialism unfair in your view? If we don't have a socialist regime in play, we still have a government...and that government still taxes the life out of hard working people, and puts that money into their own pocket. That's fair to whom?? I'm not an advocate of socialism, but there are a lot of people who view it as a fair system for good reason...and those people favor it because they've spent their lives getting screwed six ways from Sunday by our existing joke of a system, which is anything but fair.

I don't understand why it matters at all what the rest of the world thinks. In fact, why should any of them have a high opinion of the level of fairness in this country? We are all treated like # by our government.

We've got millions of homeless people starving in the streets and we willfully leave them there to rot. We've got millions of people dying of treatable illnesses that would not have to die if they were allowed to get medical treatment. We've got kids who don't have adequate nutrition or clothing or other basic needs being mocked and bullied by children of more fortunate families because they're "poor people", and they've learned from their parents and television and the internet that people like that are beneath them and therefore fair game.

We've got people working two and three jobs to support their families because federal minimum wage is still, in the year 2017, only $7.25 per hour and most of those minimum wage employers deliberately schedule their staff under the federal full-time pay scale (35 hours per week is the cutoff) so that they do not have to offer benefits to them. Even forty hours a week at that pay rate only brings in $290 in wages...and that's before taxes are taken out. You simply cannot feed, house and clothe a family on that pittance...and the cost of living keeps rising, while the minimum wage stays the same. So people spend their entire lives working multiple jobs just to survive...does that seem fair to you??

We've got people going hungry, yet you hear stories all the time about big restaurant chains throwing away thousands of pounds of perfectly good food...and firing employees for taking that wasted food and giving it to people who are in need of sustenance. They literally prefer to throw food away than give it to someone who is hungry...and our government is perfectly OK with that.

We've got fat people on disability benefits, did you know that? Millions of great big obese people who are so large that they cannot walk because their skeletons cannot support the equivalent of two or three people's worth of weight. They get a check from the government, a handicap sticker and a scooter to drive around in the grocery store so they can buy more food they don't need and shove it in their fat faces. Our government literally pays people to be fat and lazy...yet refuses to do anything for the people who are going hungry. And people who truly are injured or disabled have to fight sometimes for years before they're finally granted disability benefits. Fair or no?

If other countries believe that America treats its citizens fairly, then they're woefully misinformed. And when it comes to our judicial system, it is far from being favorable toward criminals...framed or not. Who are you referring to being framed for crimes? Did you have a specific case in mind when you wrote that?

If people have a chance to be what they want, say what they want and be allowed to go about their business if they don't harm others physically or financially, and if they feel like the gov doesn't steal their money, they will be happy. The more people allowed to be happy the better. Also, we get the less of crazy nutjob BLM's or KKK, oh you fill in the blank_____ party's.

This part really confuses me. It sounds like you're saying that pedophilia (to fill in the blank), racism and violence would suddenly stop occurring if people didn't feel like the government is stealing their money. You think that those things are a direct result of people paying too much in taxes?? No....people like that do what they do because they like it. Giving them more money would only serve to empower and embolden sickos like that. In fact, money is what allows them to gain a foothold in our society in the first place. It doesn't make them happy. Causing pain and suffering to other people makes them happy. Money just affords them the opportunity to do more of the same.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Justoneman




But

I actually very rarely hear people praising Americas justice system or talk about it being the worlds best hope. Most people think you are way to materialistic, to focused on your military, are arrogant (a stereotype I know) and a very young and inexperienced country.

I think that many Americans, particularly on ATS have a false belief in how the rest of the world views America.

^This^

I speak to people from other countries daily, people from China, Philippines, Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and Pakistan, they view America much differently than we do. They view our citizens as woefully ignorant of the world, arrogant, belligerent, incapable of argument/reason and short-sighted.

As far as our justice system? We have more people behind bars than the population of some countries. We have a huge rate of recidivism. We have prisons for profit. We have judges getting paid by those prisons to give convicts long sentences. We have police that shoot first and walk off with no charges or a slap on the wrist.

So if you really have faith in our judicial system and think that the rest of the world appreciates it as much as you do, OP, then perhaps you should confer with more non-Americans and get their perspective. While some of the nations you mention do seem a bit severe, they also don't worry too much about the petty things. (and people actually try to get a long in those countries.)

a reply to: tigertatzen

I am not jumping around. It is simply stated

Freedom for all with a chance to pursue happiness. Don't make it what it is not. Framed was a reference to a jury of your peers being all in agreement of the crime verses the King's people saying "off with his head" and no fairness in the process.

Fairness goes to the victim in the west also. If the kings people do something to you, tough luck. If someone does something to you here there are ways to obtain fairness.

Tiger you are off on a tangent and went off the thread.

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Justoneman




But

I actually very rarely hear people praising Americas justice system or talk about it being the worlds best hope. Most people think you are way to materialistic, to focused on your military, are arrogant (a stereotype I know) and a very young and inexperienced country.

I think that many Americans, particularly on ATS have a false belief in how the rest of the world views America.

^This^

I speak to people from other countries daily, people from China, Philippines, Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and Pakistan, they view America much differently than we do. They view our citizens as woefully ignorant of the world, arrogant, belligerent, incapable of argument/reason and short-sighted.

As far as our justice system? We have more people behind bars than the population of some countries. We have a huge rate of recidivism. We have prisons for profit. We have judges getting paid by those prisons to give convicts long sentences. We have police that shoot first and walk off with no charges or a slap on the wrist.

So if you really have faith in our judicial system and think that the rest of the world appreciates it as much as you do, OP, then perhaps you should confer with more non-Americans and get their perspective. While some of the nations you mention do seem a bit severe, they also don't worry too much about the petty things. (and people actually try to get a long in those countries.)

But i know of hundreds from places you reference and others who love America. To the last one they have been a testament to the opposite of that you claim. They think the BLM and others of the rioters are spoiled brats.

There are way less people to incarcerate if they kill them 1st like in China and the Communist gulags.

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Justoneman




But

I actually very rarely hear people praising Americas justice system or talk about it being the worlds best hope. Most people think you are way to materialistic, to focused on your military, are arrogant (a stereotype I know) and a very young and inexperienced country.

I think that many Americans, particularly on ATS have a false belief in how the rest of the world views America.

^This^

I speak to people from other countries daily, people from China, Philippines, Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and Pakistan, they view America much differently than we do. They view our citizens as woefully ignorant of the world, arrogant, belligerent, incapable of argument/reason and short-sighted.

As far as our justice system? We have more people behind bars than the population of some countries. We have a huge rate of recidivism. We have prisons for profit. We have judges getting paid by those prisons to give convicts long sentences. We have police that shoot first and walk off with no charges or a slap on the wrist.

So if you really have faith in our judicial system and think that the rest of the world appreciates it as much as you do, OP, then perhaps you should confer with more non-Americans and get their perspective. While some of the nations you mention do seem a bit severe, they also don't worry too much about the petty things. (and people actually try to get a long in those countries.)

But i know of hundreds from places you reference and others who love America. To the last one they have been a testament to the opposite of that you claim. They think the BLM and others of the rioters are spoiled brats.

There are way less people to incarcerate if they kill them 1st like in China and the Communist gulags.

Those are a small handful...What less than 10 countries that kill them first? The cops here kill them first in some cases too. And I know a few people that love America, and some rich ones that refused to send their kids here to university because of the "lawlessness and racism on the American streets."

originally posted by: Justoneman
a reply to: tigertatzen

I am not jumping around. It is simply stated

Freedom for all with a chance to pursue happiness. Don't make it what it is not. Framed was a reference to a jury of your peers being all in agreement of the crime verses the King's people saying "off with his head" and no fairness in the process.

Fairness goes to the victim in the west also. If the kings people do something to you, tough luck. If someone does something to you here there are ways to obtain fairness.

Tiger you are off on a tangent and went off the thread.

I spoke to every thing that you mentioned in your own OP, so no, I did no such thing. And the reason I spoke to all of it was stated very clearly in my reply. Your OP is disjointed, all over the place, and doesn't seem to address any single topic for discussion, nor make any real sense. Therefore, I replied in the same vein. Perhaps it would benefit you to be more concise yourself rather than editorialize on others who are simply trying to discuss the things you mentioned, given the scattered and rather vague nature of your OP.

Have a lovely day, now.

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Justoneman




But

I actually very rarely hear people praising Americas justice system or talk about it being the worlds best hope. Most people think you are way to materialistic, to focused on your military, are arrogant (a stereotype I know) and a very young and inexperienced country.

I think that many Americans, particularly on ATS have a false belief in how the rest of the world views America.

^This^

I speak to people from other countries daily, people from China, Philippines, Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and Pakistan, they view America much differently than we do. They view our citizens as woefully ignorant of the world, arrogant, belligerent, incapable of argument/reason and short-sighted.

As far as our justice system? We have more people behind bars than the population of some countries. We have a huge rate of recidivism. We have prisons for profit. We have judges getting paid by those prisons to give convicts long sentences. We have police that shoot first and walk off with no charges or a slap on the wrist.

So if you really have faith in our judicial system and think that the rest of the world appreciates it as much as you do, OP, then perhaps you should confer with more non-Americans and get their perspective. While some of the nations you mention do seem a bit severe, they also don't worry too much about the petty things. (and people actually try to get a long in those countries.)

But i know of hundreds from places you reference and others who love America. To the last one they have been a testament to the opposite of that you claim. They think the BLM and others of the rioters are spoiled brats.

There are way less people to incarcerate if they kill them 1st like in China and the Communist gulags.

Those are a small handful...What less than 10 countries that kill them first? The cops here kill them first in some cases too. And I know a few people that love America, and some rich ones that refused to send their kids here to university because of the "lawlessness and racism on the American streets."

Plenty of examples of how the governments are run by hideous people doing terrible things in Africa alone and elsewhere like the Banana Republics in SA. 10 is a bit below reality if you think that.

ETA

Being a sex slave in the oppressed ME is not on the list of prisoners in prison.

a reply to: Painterz

And there is an amendment that covers that.

But perhaps you should start getting outraged over "Big Law" which is something I *never* here the left complaining about. You guys complain about every "Big" this or that under the sun, but never about lawyers who charge those outrageous fees that make access to the law so impossible.

If you want to be intellectually honest, then you should be at least as outraged about for-profit legal advice and defense as you are about for-profit everything else ... but I never hear complaining about that.