The Fermi Paradox - What It Is and Categories

originally posted by: Springer
BEST THREAD of 2017 so far!

THANKS Erik!

Best thread ever.

What other threads have approached this?

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: intrptr

4) They Are Here and Do Exist: This is where most of the conspiracy theorist will thrive, that they are here, meddling with us humans, but we're too stupid to notice, or it's been hidden too well from us.

(My own emphasis)

The color spectrum we see with our eyes is a very narrow slice of the known electromagnetic spectrum.

True, but anything made of solid matter interacts with the visible light spectrum.

Of course, if these aliens are made of something other than normal matter, then that's different.

"Matter" is energy. Plenty of invisible to our eye 'energies' are known to exist because we invented instruments to detect them. Before we invented (discovered) radio we had no idea that energy 'bandwidth' even existed, despite it was all around and thru us.

Before we detected X-rays, Ultraviolet, Microwave, Infrared, these energies were also 'undiscovered'. That process of discovery is ongoing, can we presume no other energies exist outside our 'science' because we haven't detected them yet?

That would be very presumptuous, especially considering that many people report interactions with presumably 'invisible' beings or craft, all the time.

But seeing is believing, eh?

Thats like saying there are no radio broadcasts because I can't see or hear them, period.

Or vegetables discussing whether gardeners exist, or 2D flatlanders discussing "UP".

a reply to: intrptr

I think that's why he made the allowance that if these alleged aliens are made from something other than 'normal' matter (whatever that means) then we couldn't detect them. You're picking apart a contention that he didn't make.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

there are no possibilities besides the ones we know of

You're only reiterating my point again.. I don't think you understand.

The periodic table as far as we know, is based off our limited knowledge of elements, unless of course we have explored the entire universe to discover every element in existence? See how silly that sounds?

My point again, is it would be extremely naive to assume life can only exist under our circumstances.

Infinite space and time = infinite possibilities.

Our periodic table is not infinite in the slightest.

originally posted by: WHWIV
a reply to: intrptr

I think that's why he made the allowance that if these alleged aliens are made from something other than 'normal' matter (whatever that means) then we couldn't detect them. You're picking apart a contention that he didn't make.

Whats "normal matter"?

a reply to: intrptr

Exactly, hence my parenthetical "whatever that means." Dude, read.

originally posted by: WHWIV
a reply to: intrptr

Exactly, hence my parenthetical "whatever that means." Dude, read.

if you can't perceiver the difference between 'matter' and energy then theres no point having further discourse, "dude".

originally posted by: verschickter
Um... a chemical reaction?

I find that UpIsNowDown´s first post is "fresh" and out of the box. It´s kind of obvious you´think otherwhise.

And what chemical reaction would that be? Water, in some form or another, is fairly ubiquitous.

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

We don't have to explore the entire universe to determine all of the elements. We can naturally assume they are pretty consistent due to the Big Bang and subsequent creation of heavier elements as stars died. There is also no evidence the universe is infinite, therefore there are not infinite possibilities. It had a beginning, the Big Bang (which is our best theory at the moment), which had certain conditions.... those conditions propagated and create the universe we see now.

I encourage you to investigate the googolplex idea and why our universe is not so large as to be incalculable.

I always associated the Fermi Paradox with the "answering" point that the distances are just too huge.
So that's why we are not having afternoon tea at the local patisserie with 3 fingered green or blue little men and women.

I suppose I got it wrong to include this IN the Fermi Paradox.
I suppose it was always, when I thought of it when much younger, this was an answer to the Fermi Paradox which couldn't be gotten around, so I thought of the Paradox question and this answer together.

Thanks for the clear introduction again to the FP.

Your introduction to the Fermi P includes a part I do remember well from it - that "they" have had millions of years to get here, so where are they?

However, of course, the FP leaves out the distance part, and that it takes lifetimes probably to get from distance universes to our universe, even at phenomenal speeds as yet unknown to humans overtly, all the Mach speeds humans have travelled at, known publicly and probably a lot faster.
Enormous distances, it may be.

Lifetimes of distance, so, who would be manning the space craft still?
Ok. Maybe the aliens flew in families and it is a multi-generational thing, where kids are brought up to "take over" through the long travel!

It begs the question about fuel in the first place, though - a craft which can carry lifetimes of fuel?

All of this may be left irrelevant if what some of the "whistleblowers" on Kerry Cassidy's TV channel, Project Camelot, claim (and Kerry herself) is true - about space-time portals allowing travel through such huge distance by space-time "leaps".

They say they have been here
... and are here.

In a way the space-time leaps through portals may seem to easy an explanation to the problem I pose about distance and time to travel.

In another way, it may be the only feasible solution to this problem which there can ever be - and so, convenient to an argument, yes, but maybe true?

If you have not experienced Kerry Cassidy's shows, she has just done herself being interviewed about a lot of what has been said on her channel, by Robert David Steele, focussing on the "secret space program".
Search in Youtube - Project Camelot Steele interviews Kerry Cassidy
or similar.
It is a good interview - if you have assumptions, do try and keep an open mind.
Reserve judgement about what may be true and doesn't need to be impossible simply because you have not had the experience in your daily life yourself.

In her interview, Kerry does also go into alien beliefs / experiences - which, as ever, may be true, or may be the effects of sci-ops programming / targetting / technological and other means of mind control.

a reply to: intrptr

You said "matter is energy." How about you tell me what the difference is?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: eriktheawful

This is a really good thread. I tend to lean towards the rare earth scenario modified by the thought that intelligent life is not necessarily an evolutionary goal, instead one of many possible side developments, and will not form on a planet that is identical to earth unless all the nuanced sequences of events required for it take place.

Intelligent life on Earth formed as part of the battle between finding the next meal and avoiding becoming the next meal for something else. Plants and vegetation can't do much to avoid being eaten except taste awful, and send chemical messages to each other. Mammals, fish and reptiles evolved vision and taste, plus high speed motion. That also requires some intelligence in avoiding being killed by heat, cold, drowning or infection.

The next level of intelligence is being able to write down knowledge and be able to recall it at any time later.

a reply to: WHWIV

WHWIV, thanks.

And as you mention, my previous –more speculative– post notwithstanding, mainly we are looking for probable carbon based life on Earth like planets in Goldilocks zones, maybe intelligent.

Personally, I think it would be very unlikely that that life would have exactly the same biochemistry as us. If it would, that could go a long way in supporting the concept of panspermia.

It might be similar, but with other types of amino acids, lipids, sugars; or it might have completely different organic molecules that can organize, interact, grow, etc.

On Earth all organisms today share exactly the same biochemistry: same DNA, same amino acids, which would indicate that the coming into existence of successful life on Earth was a one-time event.

So successful life has come into existence on Earth only once, 3.7 x 10^9 years ago (although recently found fossils might indicate it might have been 4.2 x 10^9 years ago), because in all those years we have no evidence of organisms with an alternative biochemistry.

Now, I have no idea what unit of time to use (seconds, hours, years, century?), but when using years, the chance of successful carbon based life coming into existence on an Earth like planet in a Goldilocks zone would be 1 in 4 x 10^9 (or maybe smaller)? Don’t stare yourself blind on the calculation nor the number (it’s actually bad to extrapolate from what happened on just one planet to all the others), I’m just indicating that the chance might be small.

Cheers!

originally posted by: stormcell
Intelligent life on Earth formed as part of the battle between finding the next meal and avoiding becoming the next meal for something else.

If that were the case why didn't the previous species that had tens or hundreds of millions of years of dominance develop intelligence?

Intelligence was a localized side development, not a goal.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: cyberjedi

originally posted by: CreationBro
a reply to: eriktheawful

After some thinking, i came to this conclusion:

-There is intelligent life capable of interstellar travel in the Milky Way (at least 20-50 races)

-Some of this life has and does visit Earth

-While many focus on Earth bound governments hiding their presence, its clear to me that the visitors are masking their own presence and are careful to disclose themselves fully.


With this in mind, i think what we have is a galactic organization involving a number of interstellar races that determine the "readiness" of a planet's life for disclosure...

You are actually very close!

Indeed advanced races are capable of interstellar travel, however, they have removed the issue of having to 'travel', they simply relocate, they teleport. They can stop existing at one spot, and start existing at another as they please.

Also there IS an organizaion of alien species, and they DO measure the readiness of a plantet's community for disclosure!

Multiple alien races are observing Earth, and they are eagerly waiting for the time to arrive where they can present themselves officially.


People underestimate their intelligence, the 'advanced' races are VERY intelligent. Hollywood should also stop putting aliens on display as warmongerers, 99% of the universe is at peace. War is rare. Why would someone in their right mind kill one their own, truly it is not hard to understand, and alot of aliens do understand this and live in harmony, as could we one day.

They apparently forget how things work...do we really care what they think about us?

This is a question they face now...emotionless beings trying to recreate that which was...YAWN.

Stifling and lying is the game they played...perhaps they went just a tad too far...........

What are you rambling about?

They are emotional and with integrity, they for now dont feel it would benefit us if they were to make their presence known without the consent of our governments. At this point it would cause a breakdown of society. People will literally go into shock if they were to appear out of the blue in public.

a reply to: WHWIV

We can naturally assume

Again...

Let's just agree to disagree because we'll only be going in circles at this point..

I'll put it simply again - to assume life can only exist under our circumstances is arrogant and ignorant, imo. We haven't even delved into the possibility of other dimensional beings. There could be many ways for life to exist outside of a biological one.

a reply to: WHWIV

Ever see Mulholland Falls?


Fifty one minutes into here: