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Hmmm.. A question to NON-American's

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posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by kode
I think a lot of Americans are inexcusably fat from what i seen on TV which reflects their mentality, OTT. I have never been to America but i love the sound of country and western which I think is the best thing America has ever done and probably will do.



Its because were making newer technologies to make our lives "easier" when actually its making it "lazier". I am an American Citizen and somethings that our government does here is really stupid.




posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 06:13 PM
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Hello- I am new here, in fact this in my very first post. I would first like to say that it was a very odd scenario that brought me to this website. I was actually looking at the back of movie and it mentioned something about the Illuminati- having heard of them before I quickly did a google seach and ATS came up. I found most of the forums completly crazy- save for this one. Now please allow me to make a reply to all the current tpoics about America world views.

I will first start off by saying that I am an American, born and raised. I am currently contracted over seas, in Iraq, with the DoD. I have traveled as a Youth Ambassador to Germany, Switzerland, France, and Spain. I have also traveled to Dubai, Sharja, Kuwait, England, and in the next few months I will be heading out to Africa, if all goes well. In short I have seen many cultures, many governments, many cities, and MANY MANY airports, lol.

What I have learned from all of the cultures that I have studied thus far is that most people do not "hate" Americans as a whole. They do not like our government, as many of us do not. They see Bush as a war hungry christian fanatic, as do many, who must stop his path of war. You know what? I agree with them. Being out here in Iraq has diversified my character in the sense that, while I did not agree with our reasons for war, I see that many of the Iraqi's that I work with wanted liberation from Saddam Hussein. We have, in short, at least granted them freedom from his terror. It is sad, though, that it took outside military action. Through out the course of history many nations have overthrown their own government and liberated themselves. For some reason Iraq was not meant for self-liberation.

I will say this about America and her government. We the people of the United States believe that we have an institution implemented in politics that is flawless. Our belief is that our democracy has created a super power and thus we have rights to act as the "World Police". We actually believe that our vote is helping put a certain politician in office. Our government, our president, is nothing more than a figure head, a giant human representative of the United States. We have Bush telling countries that the American people fear their weapons, that we fear for our allies, and that we fear for our posterity and the posterity of our allies. He lies- I do not fear what weapons North Korea has, nor do I fear what weapons Iraq had/has, or what weapons Iran has and nor does Bush. Bush and his adminstration cares about the security of America's largest import and by far our largest expenditure, oil. I fear nothing for the future of oil- it is time for us to learn to stop abusing fossil fuels, and stop polluting the world. We need to stop building polluting power plants our other countries borders and making our energy their problem. We need to stop going to McDonalds and investing our time and money in making frachises rich and that American people fatter. And if I read "Welcome to America, now go home" in a public bathroom one more time I will scream!

The question is not about wether a country likes us as people, but if they like us as a governing tyrant. We control too much- and that is the problem. To who ever said religion is not at growth in our culture, then you are obviously not gay. Our President was electing on the foundation that I would never have the right to marry. America is a country of freedom, if you are a white, heterosexual, business, male, republican. Freedom is not being defended in our wars- over seas nor at home. Our freedoms are being robbed from us blindly. The people that live over seas, in foreign countries see it, it is sad to say that few see that at home.

I say I am an American by force- for my parents put me there. I fear for my country and its inevitable fall. Just think- I wanted to go to Nepal to climb Mt. Everst to the morain lake, only to find out that people there are, too, killing us. May the powers at be find me a visa and move me to France. I am tired of people wanting to kill me because I am an American while I travel abroad, or kill me because I am gay while I live at home. People have been trying to westernize themselves- when at long it us that should be looking to the East for the security of our future and our posterity. Of all countries I have traveled to thus far, Dubai, a Middle Eastern Country, has been the most unique in its culture and people.

People do not hate American's as a whole- the hate the institution that people allow to exist that is her government. That hate this government because of its religious militant point of view. Americans as a people are good, bad, funny, boring, stupid, smart, annoying, and charming. The government is corrupt, more corrupt than most will ever know. Sorry for the long post.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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What a fine, well thought-out introduction to yourself as well as an outsider-insider's viewpoint of what's going on with your nation of birth.

Bona fortuna!



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:56 PM
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Veretto - just want to take this opportunity to thank you, from the bottom of my heart. Most days lately I think about giving up on ATS. I've just been here a month...but have been seeing more opinions and attitudes that scare, disgust and anger me more than inspire me. Mostly coming from Americans..and I'm sorry to say it, but its true. Though there are many terrific people here...Canadians, Americans and others who are my friends now...there are way too many who just make me shake my head and want to cry. Seriously.

Your response was well thought out and completely honest. And its right on the money. You voice what many of us around the world feel...even though for the most part we like the people...the government with its domestic and foreign policy leaves to be desired...especially this current one and those who don't see it must be brainwashed. This government uses the religious right for the votes it received. Bush is not a religious man...he's a man that uses religion to push his agenda. But you know, I have come to realize that there is no difference between the parties...doesn't matter who's in office. All of their activities activities are part of a bigger, sinister worldwide plan. But that's a discussion for another day and another forum.

The fact is, the U.S. has a great capacity for good in the world...but in fact does more harm than good by imposing its will on the world.

Stay safe, and thanks again.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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Trent -


This end of time Bible prophecy show reaches 400 million people including my own country and i find some of their views very disturbing.

400 million people thanks to the internet.

Do you really think their views are representative of America?
Again, you're sadly mistaken if you do.


Also that article is only one of many that presents facts on the rise of the religious right in America, as i said there is many documentaries and articles about this including the well research one i watched which made me bring this up.

And I'm calling the BS. As one who actually lives here.
Not ONE thing has occured in this country to lead me to believe that it is. Or maybe something has and I missed it, but the past couple decades I do remember:
- Pray taken out of schools
- Abortion legal
-No more biblical references in on federal land
-Trying to take God out of Pledge of Alligence
I could go on....



I mean honestly, didn't Bush win the election because of his religious stance on gay marriage among other things.

No actually. All recent polls that have come out show that most Americans DON'T want gay marriage no matter what their religious beliefs are. More are in favor of civil unions, but want marriage to stay between man and woman. Nothing to do with religion.


Denying the rights of others because of religious beliefs sounds pretty damn fundamentalist to me!

?
Being gay is a religion?

veret-



Our belief is that our democracy has created a super power and thus we have rights to act as the "World Police".

Being the "World Police" isn't a always a bad thing. It's sometimes very necessary (especially with the ineffective UN). If another country was the only super power the burden would fall on them. Like with anything abuse is when the good becomes bad. Has America abused it's power from time to time. Yes. However if you think any other country in our position wouldn't do the same, you're mistaken. Humans will be humans.



To who ever said religion is not at growth in our culture, then you are obviously not gay.

No I'm not.
And no religion is not. It's not just the religious that are against gay marriage.



America is a country of freedom, if you are a white, heterosexual, business, male, republican.

lol
So what happened? Were you stuck in a desert somewhere during the Clinton years?



The people that live over seas, in foreign countries see it,

If by see it you mean read it in a not so unbiased newspaper or on the internet than you are correct. But until they live here they will never fully see anything, just as we will never fully see them.



May the powers at be find me a visa and move me to France.

You're kidding right?
The American government (and people) is a saint compared to France. If you're complaining about America why in the world would you take a step down?



That hate this government because of its religious militant point of view.

That may be a current reason, but they hated this government way before Bush came to power...

Welcome to ATS btw


Always -



But you know, I have come to realize that there is no difference between the parties...doesn't matter who's in office.

We have a winner!
Oh there may be differences in a few things here and there, but overall....there's not much diff.
Look at Clinton...he (with the left in control) had military actions in at least 3 times more countries than Bush has so far.




The fact is, the U.S. has a great capacity for good in the world...but in fact does more harm than good by imposing its will on the world.

The thing that gets harmed the most is the U.S. image (and no America doesn't help by some of the stuff it does). No matter how much good the US does it will always be overshadowed by something else....



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Trent -


This end of time Bible prophecy show reaches 400 million people including my own country and i find some of their views very disturbing.

400 million people thanks to the internet.

Do you really think their views are representative of America?
Again, you're sadly mistaken if you do.


Actually the show is on TV and that is the number of people who watch it on TV world wide. It's on over 20 stations in over 20 countries. It has no ads and you can request videos of it or download it from the site. It costs a heck of a lot of money to do this so yes it must have a lot of funding, so it must have a lot of support. Also i do not understand what you mean by a representation of America, there is no unifying thought pattern for millions of people there that i know of. However this is run by a GROUP of Americans who obviously have a lot of funds and thus support. Also do you really think all parts of America are the same? I have visited enough of it to know that is not true. So i doubt living in one area would get you an idea of what it is like in another, statistics however can do this... not entirely accurate but they are good indicators.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by Trent]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Most days lately I think about giving up on ATS. I've just been here a month...but have been seeing more opinions and attitudes that scare, disgust and anger me more than inspire me. Mostly coming from Americans..and I'm sorry to say it, but its true. Though there are many terrific people here...Canadians, Americans and others who are my friends now...there are way too many who just make me shake my head and want to cry. Seriously.
...snip...
The fact is, the U.S. has a great capacity for good in the world...but in fact does more harm than good by imposing its will on the world.

You know I don't want you to leave but if you do, don't forget to leave me a forwarding address.


Those feelings you get, you're not alone. While there are a lot of great people here, there are a 'core group' who are very adversarial, and seem to attack anyone who doesn't agree with their very narrow view of the world. They live in a world where everything is black and white, and there is no room for differences of opinion or belief. And sadly, every single one of them that I class in this group are American.

Ten or fifteen years ago, people learned about America through reading, travel, the news and Hollywood. And since most of the reading, news and Hollywood are American, it very naturally has a pro-America bias. Those of us on the outside have always seen your government for what they are because our news will report what yours does not. Believe it or not, if you rely on American media, you are not getting the whole truth.

But we still thought Americans were great people with a bad government who deceive and mislead them. Then along comes the internet. Suddenly people from all over the world can interact with each other, have an actual conversation with someone in America. You expect them to be friendly and outgoing like in the movies, and instead they attack you, belittle your opinions and denigrate your country, which you love just as much as they love theirs. In high school, we called them bullies.

Out of all the members on this board, they are a very small percentage, but they tend to stand out in your mind. I don't use my ignore button, but there are several people whose posts I won't read, or will only read them under certain forums. All Americans, every last one. I think it's sad to see a select group of posters reinforce the 'ugly American' stereotype, and they ruin a lot of perfectly interesting discussions.

Bottom line Americans: if you post inflammatory messages to this board, just remember, you are the one making Americans look bad, not our media.

As for AL's last statement, as I type this my copy of Dale Carnegie's 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' is sitting on the corner of my desk. I suggest that this fine book become required reading for the American administration, no matter which party is in power.


[edit on 10-2-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 01:33 AM
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the american dream

what do i think of america?
i come from europe also, an old continent, where most of the countries have old roots, old history.
on the other hand, the america is very "young" country, if you know what i mean. the united states have about 200 years of history (since the declaration of independance). and in that "youth" you have to try and do all the things others, older countries in the world, did. like all the "great" empires: greek, roman, british, french, german, just to name european empires, that once rule the world. but hey, its a part of human nature, so i cant blame the american people for that. only their leadership.
i feel like from the ww2 the america need an arch enemy, in order to stay alive and keep strongest. its like you are a bodybuilder and HAVE to flex your muscles all the times, or they will start to shrink. that is how the america looks like to me, always looking for more "exercise":
russia, korea, vietnam, south americas, iran, iraq etc... so once in a while there has to be a war, its simply unavoidable. the u.s. goverment is overtaken by war hungry corporations, that make money out of other peoples misery. they like to control the "world situation" and they are the real evil if you ask me.
but i know, the american people are not guilty of such accusations, their leaders are the guilty ones! they decide what to do with the budget and where to stick the money.

things i will never "forgive" from the american history:
-the indian wars
-the racism of the black man in america
those two point out, and i cannot forget these two facts.
sorry. no matter how you turn it, its still ugly.
there is too much "sweat & blood", too much of that "cowboy and indian" stuff, that is happening all over again. the situation in iraq looks like another "cowbody and indian" situation: on one side heavily armed soldiers, on the other hand simple people with guns.

america today?
i dont like u.s. goverment at all.
they are a bunch of war pigs.
american people is still very much divided in two parties,
just like it was during the american civil war,
and that will never change:
there will always be coservatives promoting war
and liberals votings against it.

i think that america could be a far far better country,
doing far more good in this world, then it is doing now.
thats all for now.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 01:54 AM
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my view on america : great country, great people, bad government (could say the same about China's government actually). I don't like US foreign policy nor do I like the power the conservatves and the neo-cons currently have. I don't agree with the US healthcare system nor do I agree with the huge military-industrial complex and the extent of power and control that big business has and the extent of conflict of interests that are allowed and permissable in the US executive and legislative branches, which other countries would not allow. I don't agree with a US style executive branch because I feel that it is undemocratic and lays the groundwork for tyranny.

The American people I know are great, nice, generous and know how to have a good time. America is fun, has everything you want and has really cool theme parks.

So in summary : America, # YEAH! (ala Team America)
American government and foreign policy



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:58 AM
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I am a proud Canadian, and have friends in several states, On the whole, I love America, and what she stands for. What irks me is how freely America imposes her will on the world. Winston Churchill said it best " America went from infancy to senility, without a period of maturity" But - I love America



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by JohnClark318
Winston Churchill said it best " America went from infancy to senility, without a period of maturity"

now that is a great quote you have found.
and its true.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey

You know I don't want you to leave but if you do, don't forget to leave me a forwarding address.


I don't want to either...I figure I should at least learn from the ignorance of others...but sometimes its just too much to take. Many times they overshadow some terrific discussions. We'll see...as my business picks up I'll be here less and less...so I won't give up completely for awhile yet. And will be sure to leave a forwarding address to all my new found buddies if I do.


Those feelings you get, you're not alone. -snip- They live in a world where everything is black and white, and there is no room for differences of opinion or belief. And sadly, every single one of them that I class in this group are American.


Its not just here though. I've had these feelings for a while now...I go to the U.S. a lot to visit family and I find, for the most part that Americans are so ignorant of and unconcerned about the world around them and know virtually nothing about their neighbours. I grew up watching WKBW tv in Buffalo, N.Y. - Rocketship 7, Commander Tom and "Its 11 oclock, do you know where your children are?" I could name half of the towns in western New York when I was 8. I knew they spelled things differently than we. I understood it was a different country and I was curious about it. Canadians in general know so much about the U.S. than vice versa, but I don't think its just because we are influenced by American media. I have a friend in Florida who's originally from Buffalo, has a cottage on the Canadian side of the border, lived summers on Lake Erie and returns each summer to this day, but didn't know that the Stanley Cup was Canadian,r that we have our own kind of superbowl called the Grey Cup, or who and what the CBC is. This is just a teeny example.

My own half brothers, who are eligible for Canadian citizenship by barely lifting a finger, know less about Canada then I know about the town they live in.

I don't know,I may be wrong. But to me its indicative of an utter disregard and disconnect from the world around...kind of like, if its different from what we know and understand, its not worth knowing. And I see this at all ages...it must be something that is encouraged from childhood.

Now with the internet most will only seek out information that is in keeping with their boxed view of the world a la Americaine. Even though there is no excuse for ignorance anymore...it still seems to be fostered in so many, too many.

But now, at least, I see other Americans trying to fight that image...and to you all I say thanks. You're the ones who make me not give up on our closest ally and neighbour.

After 9/11 there was so much good will toward the U.S. from everywhere, even though other countries acknowledged that the U.S. is far from innocent. All this goodwill was squandered by the government WITH THE BLESSING OF MOST OF THE PEOPLE! This, instead of maybe trying to understand why this country which is supposedly so wonderful, would have enemies in the world.


In high school, we called them bullies.


And these are the images and attitudes that are projected to the world...


'How to Win Friends and Influence People' is sitting on the corner of my desk. I suggest that this fine book become required reading for the American administration, no matter which party is in power.


You know what they say...you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Never has a simple statement been more true than now.



[edit on 10/2/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 09:53 AM
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I will learn how to quote on the TSA some time- until then you know who you are.

I do not know how well traveled you are, or if you have even been to France; but, from your post I can see that you have no idea on what the French culture and French people are like. People believe what the media tells them, they have no concept of individualsim, though that is what we constantly strive for. I will save myself the heartache of defending the French cultural and French people and just ask that you go to France. You may find it a lot different than what you actually believe. Orange is nice, so Paris, Mount Pielle, and the Riviera. If you do happen by France, make sure that you do not just go to Paris. France has a lot to offer in their smaller towns. You may want to head out towards Germany and stop at Natzwieler Concentration Camp.

The point about sexuality not being a religion- how right you are. That was not the point, and I am sure you know that. For some reason I remember hearing Bush say this "We must fight to keep the sanctity of marriage between a Man and a Woman holy". America claims that they are the epitome of human rights, in fact I do believe that our Decleration of Independence says "We hold the truths to be self evident- that all men are created equally, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The very statement of keeping the sanctity of marriage holy is a violation of human rights, yet people are too hard headed to see beyond their personal beliefs and ideas.

As far as travels are concerned, and seeing what people think about us while over seas, I will tell you this; there is more to be found in conversation with one person than any news paper in the world. How odd this may sound, but, in Europe you can go to a coffee shop sit outside and talk with a complete stranger. In America this would only happen if some guy, or girl, were trying to woe her/him. I have had my fair share of conversations with complete strangers throughout the world. The media tells people the worst of the worst, I have found that to be universal. The media is not a fair representation of ones people.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by Trent
Also i do not understand what you mean by a representation of America, there is no unifying thought pattern for millions of people there that i know of.


This thread was about what do you think of Americans.
Why did you single out that group knowing there's no unifying thought pattern? There are a lot of...different groups in America with their own (sometimes strange and hateful) beliefs (i.e, kkk).



However this is run by a GROUP of Americans who obviously have a lot of funds and thus support.

Some people are just rich.
I can tell you these people aren't big here in America. I never heard of them until your article.


Also do you really think all parts of America are the same?

That's what I'm asking you!


I have visited enough of it to know that is not true. So i doubt living in one area would get you an idea of what it is like in another, statistics however can do this... not entirely accurate but they are good indicators.

And statistics will show that type of stuff isn't on the rise. I have been across this country many times over to know. As more and more people gain access to the internet, it may seem like it's on the rise....but that's not reality.






I do not know how well traveled you are, or if you have even been to France; but, from your post I can see that you have no idea on what the French culture and French people are like.


ahh oui que je connais....
croyez-moi

You said earlier "America is a country of freedom, if you are a white, heterosexual, business, male, republican."
Well in France, you're ok (the country may be PERFECT) if you're white and preferably gay with liberal viewpoints....otherwise fuggedaboutit.
Of course that isn't true everywhere there just as how you described america isn't true everywhere here.



The very statement of keeping the sanctity of marriage holy is a violation of human rights

No it isn't.
Being able to say something like that is one of those other pesky little rights we have called free speech.

Do you really think you ("you" in a general sense) can prove that not being able to marry another man is keeping you from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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Indeed I can. The question is, can you prove that not allowing me to wed another is NOT a violation of my rights as a human being. Liberty- a word that is repeated over and over and few people even recognize its meaning. Liberty is the condition of being free from restriction or control.
The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. By allowing only man and woman to marry our government is not allowing me to express myself in a manner of my chosing, my government is takin away my right to pursuit happiness.

I must say, however, the topic of discussion has kind of been changed. Wether or not a homosexual can marry is an irrelevant point when taking the entire world into consideration. That is just one factor that I had to add. My message was not about homosexuality, the message was about a corrupt administration and world views on that administration. I do apologize if this small statement about homosexuality has altered the topic of which we currently speak.

Unless you put yourself in the shoes of another you will never know how good/bad you have it. We can not continue to look from the inside. For us to truly know one another we must step outside what makes us comfortable and look into it from a new perspective. Our government would do well to do just that.

J. William Fulbright has said that "The citizen who criticizes his country is paying it an implied tribute."

Only by acknowledging our problems can we work to fix them. People live in fanciful worlds in which they believe everything is all fine and well. They believe that our government is looking out for the peoples best interest. They believe that a foundation for a better America starts with a better world- starting with forced democracy. A better America will never come to pass so long as our foreign policy remains the same. A better America will never come to pass if the problems at home are ignored. I am not looking for Utopia or perfection by any means.

Inevitably it falls down to the American government forcing law throughout the world. We are not the World Police. We should not be the world police. There should not be one country given authority to tell every other country in the world what they are going to do. This mentality must die. This makes America nothing but a large bully.

Also- I did not say that I wanted to move to France strictly on the basis of not be targeted for being gay. I could move to a lot of European countries if I wanted that. I just happen to really like France. The langauge, the culture, the food, the wine, the climate, the architecture, and the geography are all things that I love about France. There are other "perks" as well. If you can not go to France then go to Disney in Orlando, FL. At Epicot they have a place where you can "walk around the world". Take a stop in France and watch the movie about its culture and geography, stop and taste some of the food too!

[edit on 10-2-2005 by veretto]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:06 PM
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That in fact is one problem that the U.S. does have. We do act like the world police. Sorry not the citizens...the government. And yes, it does get on my nerves. It annoys me that we are always busting into somebody else's business world. Our enforcement should stay over here, how has, yalls inforcement should stay over there. The U.S however, doesnt care. Its like we are trying to establish "our way of life" in other countries. What Bush and the government does not see is that, we are a different culture than other countries. Just like Russia is a different culture than France. We speak a different language, have different jobs, and do many different things. Sometimes I feel like Bush is "leading the U.S. on" to lie and make us think that OUR government is trying to be established wherever it can. Ide say that would be a pretty dumb idea.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:55 PM
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About being the world's police....

It's a no win situation for the US. If we didn't do anything....we'd be called isolationist. If we do do something....we're tyrants.
As I said before this burden falls on us because we are the only superpower left. If another country were in our position...they'd be dealing with the same problems.
This mentality should NOT die as it is necessary. How you use the power is where it can get you into trouble.



The U.S however, doesnt care. Its like we are trying to establish "our way of life" in other countries. What Bush and the government does not see is that, we are a different culture than other countries.

We attacked Afghanistan in response to 9/11. Something any pres would have done.
Not including Iraq, where else would you say that we are taking away someone's culture and trying to establish our way of life?



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 04:21 PM
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I would like to know who started this thread and why. This thread caught my attention and brought me to this ats. I would like to know why it was started though. Also, I want to know why you believe that America is supposed to police the world. Why do you believe that there should be One country to police the world. As police of the world, what do you think America's objectives should be? Also, this may require a new thread, but seeing how I do not know how to do that, I will ask it here. Do you believe that America should force democracy on those countries that do not want it? Also- should America ban other countries from having weapons of mass destruction, when America has her own fair share of such weapons? If so, how can America determine who is allowed and who is not? If this is the wrong place to ask this then can someone please direct me on how to put it in its proper location? Thank you- if this post is deleted by the owner can you please tell me where to direct this post? Thank you-



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 05:08 PM
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I am the one who started this thread. First, I did not intentionally put this thread on ATS for people to come in here and bicker about things. I do not believe that ANY country should have weapons of mass destruction, Even the United States. I posted this thread to ask NON-Americans what they think about the United States. If you have a problem with my thread/reply, please feel free to U2U me.

Regards,
Creamsoda



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 05:18 PM
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creamsoda,

I think this is a great thread, and have been quite impressed at how civil it has remained.

For having the cojones to post this and invite our replies was impressive enough.

But for not telling a single person that they were wrong, or trying to make us justify our feelings, I think you earned this:



You have voted creamsoda for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


Thank you for being open-minded. We need more of that on this board.





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