The Vertical Plane by Ken Webster - Is this proof of Time manipulation and travel or just a story?

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Semantics in discussing the Vertical Plane as loosely defined by Ken and the hints from 2109 is going to trip us up every time. We each, I agree, have our own personal definitions already so finding a common framework is going to be a bugger.

While I admit I now need to go get acquainted with t1,t2,t3 concept I'll still go an shoot from the hip. The way I came to understand Time and layers of reality were in being overly sensitive to others.

By this I mean Daytime is more concrete. People get up for work, pull back their thoughts and focus more on themselves and "the airwaves" calm down.

In the Evening the airwaves get a little busier and things start ramping up as people come home, shed their own personal realities in favor of their home realities.

Middle of the night is a free for all with everyone dreaming and "the weird" being able to cut loose.

Middle of the night, awake or asleep we're able to access MORE. Access each other, access random ideas floating around, tap into what's commonly called the collective unconscious or whatever you personally call it. Time "seems to be less rigid" because we aren't focused on our own personal realities such as work, chores, concrete things we need to get done.

Now that doesn't mean Time can't be more fluid during the day, it's just more difficult for us to free-wheel it with our indoctrination to our individual society's norms. Humans are Do-ers if nothing else and during the day we're busy do-ing.

When I perceived things this way it was very painful so much so I chose to work at night and sleep during the day because it was both safer, and quieter. What 2109 proceeded to do could just as easily been accomplished without that word processor probably at night but for whatever reason it was easier for them to hook into "our airwaves" via the device. Maybe a shortcut?

I'll be back after I get acquainted with the T-definitions.
Am a little handicapped since I don't have a copy of the book, so if I'm off track hopefully someone with a copy will school me?

LOL!

a reply to: sputniksteve

My neighbour 2 doors down was having her kitchen renovated when in a split second she saw a little bald man in an old fashioned nineteen thirties suit but she told me it looked like he saw her then a later on they found a paper pushed into a hole in the kitchen that was dated 1930 ?

a reply to: 808Funk

SS cited a CIA document as having significant weight on the topic.
In the 1930's the CIA was not officially chartered however William Friedman and his wife were employed at riverbank labs.
Friedmans Wife Elizabeth was involved in the the Baconian theory of Shakespearean authorship suit, is that what you were referring too?

Hi everyone! I have read all your posts, Crom I got your msg thanks man, I'm on my phone and can't seem to reply on it.

Things have taken such a weird turn guys that I don't even want to tell you what has happened until I have a reply from Gary. Even then I am really not sure how this will go down. Might be back to work same as I was doing, might be quite different than that. I don't know, but I promise I will explain soon either way.

I will say now though, that this is far stranger than ANYONE presumed it would be. Frankly that is the understatement of the century. Some of it you may flat out disbelieve. Sometimes I don't believe it.

It's probably going to be the best week in the history of weeks, make sure you got your happy pants on and loving your neighbors. I'll see if I can get some replies out today.

What a day. What a life. What a world. I am going to take a week off from TVP, and after WED will be offline completely till the following week.

I implore you guys to keep digging and thinking about this story. My stance has not changed, if anything it has been reinforced. With concrete and rebar. Tons and tons of it. Frankly it is without question.

I won't be of any assistance at all, I apologize. I don't know that you guys need anything from me at this point anyway. Without giving you the book itself, I have given you basically everything I have to give at this moment. I am not being cryptic or dramatic, just being honest. Things have happened that haven't been shared, I don't know if they will be.

I have felt like I was running a race the last few weeks, and I have come to realize it's not a race at all. There isn't any hurry. Everything happens when it is supposed to, in a way it is supposed to happen. Me freaking out thinking I had to do all this stuff isn't going to help anything. If those things happen they happen, but frankly they are now of little importance. I was very naive about my approach, but then again I never thought this would be anything but another thread on ATS.

Get up to speed guys. I highly suggest you go out and get "Surviving Death" by Leslie Kean and "Beyond Biocentrism" by Robert Lanza as soon as humanly possible and read them in one sitting back to back if possible. You are not going to get anywhere without them. Trust me.

I am healthy and happy, and going to spend the rest of the week being a normal dad and husband and friend. I truly love you guys that have participated in this thread, I am happy to have met you in these circumstances. These have been some incredible conversations. You had to know I couldn't do this with a little theater though. I feel like I deserve it at least.

HAHA.

P.S. if you don't currently have access to the google doc, sorry but you will have to wait. I locked it, and will keep it locked for the time being. If you are in the thread and lost access, just PM me and of course I will get you back in there. I think it best to keep this in house for the moment though.

Have a great week guy! If you aren't lying on your back and breathing in your belly yet start tonight. Never know what you might find.

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
I appreciate everyone's contributions to the thread, I have no doubt I would have been able unable to think of this on my own.Hopefully, this perspective sheds some more light on what may have happened...

Here I meant to say unable.I caught that while reviewing it after the 4 hours had for editing had elapsed.Ladies & gentlemen please keep the ideas flowing as you feel free.

a reply to: CromCruachh

I don't believe in physical time travel myself.I don't understand how that mechanism for that would work, currently. 2109's description of the dimensions/pebbles makes sense if they are referencing consciousness/information as the vehicle.I believe spirit can travel this way.

I took a quick look at the wiki about Tachyon. There was an interesting graphic describing Cherenkov radiation, and a double image effect.In section about speed, looking at the possibility of communicating backwards in time brought a link to Tachyonic antitelephone. Idk physics to that degree, but turned back after article's One-way example.

Einstein (and similarly Tolman) concluded that this result contains in their view no logical contradiction; he said, however, it contradicts the totality of our experience so that the impossibility of a > c seems to be sufficiently proven.

I laughed at this.How well do we recognize the totality of our experience?

Idk, how fruitful trying to understand the mechanics of what went on in Dodleston will be.It'd be great exercise for writers out there into sci-fi. It brought to mind what One was saying to 2109 about lecturing on physics and existentialism.

I figure advanced intelligence is more likely to use parables or stories to get a message across, leaves more room for free will.That way is closer to the way the arts speak to us (creatively).I took another look at the info about serialism, and came up with that interpretation of it in the context of the story.

Thinking out loud...

What you fear wil be your reality if you let it, believe in yourselves. Safe are the bodies of the silent world. As long as your kind cannot penetrate our world we are safe. Turn pretty flower turn towards the sun, for you shall grow and sow but the flower reaches too high and withers in the burning light. Knowledge will be your progress but your kind are coming close to getting their fingers burnt...indirectly, you may prevent this!

In my perspective 2109 could well be some kind of artificial intelligence.The issues with their spelling errors and whatnot, make me think they actually could have burned their fingers (using a more robotic body) or in a metaphorical sense, their system was going down.Or the opposite.2109's description of consciousness and them being safe from us, makes me wonder if they ever get any rest?Total awareness in their Tachyon universe could be a heavy burden to bear.Not for a necessarily for a machine, but for man.

There could have been a catastrophe of sorts in the distant future, where the program had some safety feature for that kind of scenario.Perhaps a fail-safe encouraging those in the past to appreciate their humanity?and our sense of balance?

When it comes to their description of this as an "Experiment", they may not have been wholly responsible if they were indeed a kind of computer.I doubt an intelligence like that degree of free will.2109 does appear very intelligent.

One: POOR, POOR, JACK IN THE BOX, WHAT WILL HE DO WITHOUT A SPRING, NOW HE’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO PERFORM FOR THE CHILDREN. oH, AND HOW THE CHILDREN WILL CRY!
Won, we presume?!. Cut the criptic, yoar too obvious anyway!. Trying to play the brave sumaritan eh?!! Revert to cipher yoar just confusing 1985E. They know not to trust you!
One: Your English is appalling!. Don’t you have any other purpose than to lecture this kind with existentialism and Quantum physics. What a meaningless existence! But if cipher, then cipher it is - If you can keep up with me!!
Not this Frq. Range!!

About One.I imagine one being not all that different from us.If I recall correctly he is being sarcastic about the Jack in the box when communicating with 2109.Another exchange, who was brought up.I think John and 2109 had a little exchange asking about that to do with the frequencies.Owls say who!lol

I think One probably had a higher degree of unity consciousness, then 2109 in a more organic sense.That's going off on a tangent though.I say that entertaining the idea, that in 2109's timeline perhaps the man/machine boundary was crossed to the point of diminishing returns.

For context when it comes to experimenting with time, areas like dreamwork, psionics, and even research into the great pyramids come up.Dee was mentioned earlier, too...

a reply to: sputniksteve

Steve thanks for this post.I just saw that.I was feeling a little worried about you.There's no rush.

I am healthy and happy, and going to spend the rest of the week being a normal dad and husband and friend. I truly love you guys that have participated in this thread, I am happy to have met you in these circumstances. These have been some incredible conversations. You had to know I couldn't do this with a little theater though. I feel like I deserve it at least.

It's so good to hear it!Bless you sputniksteve.

Please check your messages sometime.I wanted to ask you something, before posting in this thread.Hopefully you don't mind us exploring the story further.

a reply to: Caver78

Thanks for the feedback Caver78.

originally posted by: Caver78
Semantics in discussing the Vertical Plane as loosely defined by Ken and the hints from 2109 is going to trip us up every time. We each, I agree, have our own personal definitions already so finding a common framework is going to be a bugger.

I agree and being familiar with the high strangeness of communications in 2109 style, it's worth while practicing due diligence.I feel better today though, thinking back on how things have worked out.I think I have a more clear idea of how to express these concepts compared to before sputniksteve created the thread.

While I admit I now need to go get acquainted with t1,t2,t3 concept I'll still go an shoot from the hip. The way I came to understand Time and layers of reality were in being overly sensitive to others.

I was unaware of the concept of serialism as a description for levels of awareness before CromCruachh shared that with us.Ken's Vertical Plane appears to be an amazing read, and someone could probably learn a lot reading and contemplating it for themselves.

Idk, as not to send anyone on a goose chase, perhaps this will simplify what I was trying to get at with my interpretation of serialism.

Thomas era - t1 - linear-cyclical
1980's era - t2 - linear-cyclical-vertical time
2109's era - t3 - linear-vertical-cyclical
Ones space - t4 - linear-vertical-cyclical-fractal

I am trying to describe their perception of time using linear,cyclical,vertical, and fractal as descriptions for that awareness.I think that anybody involved could have the various modes of perception, for the purpose of illustrating the concept I broke it down that way.

Stereotypically, society has a trend to underestimate our ancestors and the previous generations.I disagree, but feel that for most individuals their awareness of time grows hopefully throughout their lives as they learn various lessons.

Awareness growing: linear-->cyclical-->vertical-->fractal (with the combinations creating subsets)

By this I mean Daytime is more concrete. People get up for work, pull back their thoughts and focus more on themselves and "the airwaves" calm down.

In the Evening the airwaves get a little busier and things start ramping up as people come home, shed their own personal realities in favor of their home realities.

Middle of the night is a free for all with everyone dreaming and "the weird" being able to cut loose.

Middle of the night, awake or asleep we're able to access MORE. Access each other, access random ideas floating around, tap into what's commonly called the collective unconscious or whatever you personally call it. Time "seems to be less rigid" because we aren't focused on our own personal realities such as work, chores, concrete things we need to get done.

Now that doesn't mean Time can't be more fluid during the day, it's just more difficult for us to free-wheel it with our indoctrination to our individual society's norms. Humans are Do-ers if nothing else and during the day we're busy do-ing.

I agree and share a similar perception.There's much I've come across that echos this description.

When I perceived things this way it was very painful so much so I chose to work at night and sleep during the day because it was both safer, and quieter. What 2109 proceeded to do could just as easily been accomplished without that word processor probably at night but for whatever reason it was easier for them to hook into "our airwaves" via the device. Maybe a shortcut?

Idk how they did it, day and night may not exist where they come from.Depending on the maps they use to navigate their space/time your take makes a lot of sense.I think they did have much they could share, but were unable to due to respecting our free will.One seemed to remind them that.One may have been lost to their space/time before hand.

The way I came to understand Time and layers of reality were in being overly sensitive to others

If I'm picking up, what your laying down, I agree.I've been making my way through the ME mega thread slowly, and it reminds a lot about that sentiment.Reading this thread my first impulse was to describe my perspective in equations/graphics, but it's too much.I've tried before and it usually goes "missing".(Others looking out for our physical well being)

If anything learning about how I feel about space/time has made me practice more due diligence when it comes to that sort of thing.It's difficult to imagine sometimes how information comes across on the net.Offline, I'll usually crack jokes and stuff to break up the seriousness of these kind of conversations.My delivery sucks though, so I don't think it translates well on the boards.

Peace

I felt like sharing some commentary on a few points. Imo, a human had written this in chalk on the wall somewhere...

"The eyes are open yet nothing do you see. The grey retarding mass is your convict. Quietly alone he sits in the dark waiting for sentence to be passed and demanding through the eyes of the blind of unspoken questions to answers of ethereal kind. The soul he is the traveller. Chain nor bar can hold him to frail flesh. Here is the ruler of time and space. Here is your God." - Unknown Time Traveler.

For me when I read that, I get the impression that it references consciousness as God or the powers of the mind shaping our experience.

John Dee was mentioned earlier in the thread, and the quote made me want to mention something called confounding the planes.It's basically a name for a danger in magical thinking where individuals will lose track of who they are.I thought it would be good to bring it up, because I haven't seen it mentioned in our community.

Basically, individuals would take on a name specifically for their esoteric workings and keep that name usually to themselves or closed circle.Then when they finish their working they go back to their everyday name.In another thread talking about the workings of the mind, I was reminded about confounding the planes when someone was describing the use of different hats for different roles.

For example, here my name dffrntkndfnml. My name is, lets say "Fulano", my kids know me as Dad, and my brothers by my nickname.Hopefully, you get the idea. Different names for various roles.

Sometimes individuals lose track of who they are, when they forget when and where they are.Like I prefer if the kids call me dad, their friends Mr. "Last Name", and my mother "Fulano".

In esoterics, and other areas of life, mixing up names and roles can create undue hardships.Please everyone be practice being conscious of who you are, where you are, and when you are...

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Interesting point you made there about serialism. If you haven't already, you should read the whole book. just type "An experiment in time-PDF" in google and you can read it for free.

That Tachyon antiphone concept is very interesting! thanks for sharing that. Sending signals back in time,hmm...
Maybe future people (or people from the past) sent not just a Tachyon signal, but an entire AI program into the Tachyon reality.

I'm just seeing how many different scenarios I can come up with here

originally posted by: CromCruachh
Interesting point you made there about serialism. If you haven't already, you should read the whole book. just type "An experiment in time-PDF" in google and you can read it for free.

Sweet, always like to get book suggestions.Makes bus rides, fly by.

originally posted by: CromCruachh
That Tachyon antiphone concept is very interesting! thanks for sharing that. Sending signals back in time,hmm...
Maybe future people (or people from the past) sent not just a Tachyon signal, but an entire AI program into the Tachyon reality.

Glad I don't have that phone bill!lol, no wonder they said that was it for communication.

originally posted by: CromCruachh
I'm just seeing how many different scenarios I can come up with here

This Vertical Plane and this thread is awesome like that!

originally posted by: CromCruachh
a reply to: TrueGoose

Wow, i'm an Australian also and I followed the exact steps you did!
I also called that library in that small town, what was it...Morwell? No wonder they thought you were crazy, heaps of people probably rang them for that book, and when you went in there maybe they thought it was you who kept ringing them? lol!
Then i got that torrent which only downloaded to 74%
I even called second hand book shops all across the country, and in London! all to no avail
BUT...My second language is german, and abra cadabra...in 1993 Ernst Meckelburg printed another copy, with Ken's permission. This was the second printing, the only other language The Vertical Plane was translated into.
www.amazon.de...

All of the messages from 2109, Ken, One and Tomas are in English. The rest is in German.

I'm interested in that BBC computer manual now, I'm gonna do some searching for it.

I haven't finished my way through this thread, so apologies. I live not too far from Morwell in the scheme of things. Are you and Goose saying that there's no actual book at that library?

a reply to: auroraaus

When I called up they told me it wasn't there. And when goose actually went there they didn't have it.
But when I look in that online library database it says the book is there?

originally posted by: sputniksteve

originally posted by: sputniksteve
Anyone live near Brasenose College Oxford? I know we have a few UK folks watching. That was Thomas school. I will call them first thing in the morning UK time and see if I can speak to someone in the Library or History department. If anyone is close they could possibly go there with the book description and make better head way thank I can.

I don't know why I never thought of this until right now. You guys are geniuses.

You guys are never going to believe this. I am struggling with it myself at the moment.

This screen name that I have used since 2007, is after my deceased cat.

My plans for sleeping are done, I'm gonna walk till I can't. Then we will just see what happens tomorrow.

Sleep well guys.

That is a brilliant name for a cat! My cat when I was a wee lass was called Arthur C Cat.

a reply to: CromCruachh

That is absolutely barmy. Did they not give an explanation why Trove says they have it?

a reply to: auroraaus

Nah I didn't ask. If you live close you may as well drop in and have a look and ask yourself. Maybe they filed it wrong or something?

By coincidence I am sure, the Co author from Beyond Biocentrism is the newest Mysterious Universe Podcast. I highly suggest it is listened to. Get something right from the horses mouth if you will.

originally posted by: auroraaus

originally posted by: sputniksteve

originally posted by: sputniksteve
Anyone live near Brasenose College Oxford? I know we have a few UK folks watching. That was Thomas school. I will call them first thing in the morning UK time and see if I can speak to someone in the Library or History department. If anyone is close they could possibly go there with the book description and make better head way thank I can.

I don't know why I never thought of this until right now. You guys are geniuses.

You guys are never going to believe this. I am struggling with it myself at the moment.

This screen name that I have used since 2007, is after my deceased cat.

My plans for sleeping are done, I'm gonna walk till I can't. Then we will just see what happens tomorrow.

Sleep well guys.

That is a brilliant name for a cat! My cat when I was a wee lass was called Arthur C Cat.

Him and Squirrly Birdman made quite a team. Totally unrelated to this thread, Steve was always an unhealthy kitty. When he was just a couple years old he had to have an operation because his liver was bad or something, I can't quite remember the details. In any case my girlfriend and I who owned Steve (as much as you can own a cat) didn't have the $450 to pay for it. So like any college student we threw a "Save the Pussy" party at my house and raised enough to have the operation and pay for the Kegs. It was an epic evening.

About 5 years later Steve got Asthma. He would have to have steroid shots every 6 months, until they no longer worked. He was miserable, and I felt terrible for him. I made the hard decision to release Steve from his pain, he had lived a spectacular life up until then. The adventures he had escaping from my house to wonder home days later with a satisfied meow at my window. I would wake up every morning and go and get a Cappuccino and Teriyaki Shredded Beef Jerky for breakfast, as soon as I opened that can of Jerky Steve would come running. I would put little pinches of it down and we would share each can.

I cried all the way to the Vet, I made noises while he was injected that scared the staff. They gave me a wide berth, and looked a little confused when I told them I would take Steve with me. I laid Steve in my trunk and drove to a Hardware store, with my eyes beet red and tears still coming down I took a single shovel to the counter. If I wouldn't have happened to know the guy at the check out, I am certain they would have called the cops on me. It must have been a sight. Neither of us acknowledge the other.

Still crying I drove 45 minutes outside of the city and found a wide open field. I dug a hole as deep as I could and buried my little friend. In the hopes that his kitty spirit would be able to run around in the fields and woods that he used to enjoy as a younger cat. Life went on and Squirrly bird got all the loving. Then one night I was laying in bed trying to sleep when I felt a familiar weight on my leg. Just like Steve did his entire life, a spirit kitty curled up against my leg and stayed there all night. I didn't dare move except to open my eyes to see if it was really there. I didn't need eyes to tell me that though.

It would be hard to refute bio-centrism as a valid way of explaining the subjective experience of human consciousness.
Isaac Asimov imagined Autonomous Robots that would be limited and predictable by their biological hardware/software.
I could see myself as a "useful idiot" in some scheme that is outside my conceptual abilities.
As the saying goes "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it", so I tend to look for historic examples to reverse engineer, so that I can reference them.

You never know what kinds of new connections you make with these ATS threads, I had a girlfriend years ago who was a gifted singer and pianist. She had a female cat named Lucy, short for Lucifer and I wondered why she would name a cat Lucifer? Now I can include the possibility that her kitty was named after Lucifer Samantha from the Pink Floyd song.

And in other news the outback steakhouse is denying their organization is involved in a Satanic Cult

a reply to: sputniksteve

I honestly think the book isn't in the Morwell library because they've either removed it, sold it or it's been stolen. It isn't listed on their local database but it is in the national database. I honestly think that the NLA database can lag behind. It's quite old for a paperback and I imagine it was worn out. Either that or a bunch of weirdos (like myself) kept asking for it so they got rid of it....

I don't want to seem judgemental here but... I think this book is so complex that it lends itself to reflexive thought - it is possible to read many things into it because it is so multifaceted. And then the analysis starts producing meanings inherent in the observer's perspective. It really does lend itself to obsession. I've had a couple of nights laying back, wide-eyed, contemplating issues that the book brought up.

In a way, I don't think it's multifaceted at all. It's more like a glimpse into totality. All moments in time and space existing simultaneously. Possibly. I don't know. That doesn't explain 2 Lukases.

I haven't contributed too much here because I've pretty much exhausted my own thinking and research capabilities. Although, I haven't gone as far as sputniksteve. (By trhe way, sputniksteve, I'm really glad you've taken a rest.) Robin Peedell seems to have a relative who works as head chef at Brasenose, but Robin may have already given all his research to Ken.

I'm certain that the nature of this story will reveal itself soon enough, and when it does, it will probably make a bunch of people # their cosmological pants.