The Roswell Crash... Alien Spacecraft or Mogul Service Flight?

With the anniversary of the Roswell crash, I thought I'd put together my belief of what happened. I don't see a lot of arguments addressing the list of coincidences between the supposed flying saucer and balloon flights out of Alamogordo. I also don't see Mogul service/research flights mentioned often as what actually crashed.

I first want to give a very brief, simple summary of the history of Project Mogul. Points to highlight what I'm discussing in this thread. It seems many have the misunderstanding that Mogul began as a fully functioning program that immediately launched completed flights in Alamogordo NM. Meaning what was being launched in NM were only numbered Mogul arrays. This is incorrect. It was still in it's infancy and beginning stages of development when leaving for Alamogordo in late May 1947. Experimental flights, called research and service flights, were being launched throughout this period and many were not logged.

A launched service flight on June 4th seems to be the logical answer for what crashed on the Foster ranch, not Mogul Flight #4, and not an alien spacecraft. An in between flight of balloons, radar targets, and a sonobouy describes in better terms what crashed. The topic of this thread is to establish that service and research flights were a part of project Mogul, those launches were during the same time period as the "saucer" crash, multiple radar targets were attached to many of those early flights, the material of the "saucer" matches that of radar target(s), and the location of the launches was only 80 miles away.


Quick History
Dr. Maurice Ewing from Columbia University conceived the idea of Project Mogul in the mid 1940's. Dr. Ewing conducted research for the NAVY during WWII with the idea that explosions could be heard thousands of miles away using microphones placed in the sound channel of the oceans. He was able to prove this through testing and theorized that sound waves could similarly be heard for long distances high in the atmosphere. With the development of nuclear weapons and fear of attack by the Soviets, Dr. Ewing approached the Army Air Force with his theory in 1945. The project was approved in early 1946. With this approval, three new areas of technological development needed to be met: An expendable microphone able to detect low frequency sound waves given off by exploding bombs or missiles (contract given to Columbia University) - A way to send these signal to a ground or air receiver (contract given to Columbia University) - A way to suspend this equipment in the upper atmosphere for extended periods (contract given to New York University). Experimenting with equipment continued throughout Mogul's development. Eventually because of cost, security, and practicality, the Mogul program ended in December of 1948 and was never put into full operational use.



1- Mogul Was Still Experimental And Not A Fully Functioning Program When It Arrived In Alamogordo NM

SERVICE FLIGHTS LAUNCHED DURING THE MOGUL PROGRAM

From Technical Report No. 93.03
CONSTANT LEVEL BALLOONS FINAL REPORT:

During the course of the project, balloon flights were split into two general classifications, (a) research and (b) service.

Research flights were made to test balloon controls and telemetering systems developed under the contract....

Service flights were carried out by the New York University personnel in conjunction with technical personnel from the sponsoring agency to test geophysical equipment developed in Air Force laboratories. The requirement for these flights were launching and tracking of balloons to float at specific altitudes for short periods of time (6 to 8 hours).

books.google.com...=snippet&q=service&f=false

Two technical drawings of service and research flights below from Project Mogul report 93.03. These represent general flights launched during the program and not the failed meteorological balloons and radar targets in early June. Service flights were simple balloon launches, many expendable. Research flights contained testing equipment and were recovered. The flights in these drawings show the use of G.M. polyethylene balloons which didn't come into use until early July. Clusters of meteorological balloons were used during the first "field trip" or phase of Mogul in June.

Charles Moore Interview:

Q: So it would have to be in the June field trip, early in June. You had several service and flights but you also had, you called them experimental flights. The experimental flights with the testing...

A: The ones in early June were all service flights. In other words, all flights we were making for Peoples, and had some radar test flights.

books.google.com...=onepage&q=%22ED%20ISTVAN%22%20roswell&f=false

Charles Moore drawing of a typical service flight during the first phase of Mogul:


Photo of a Mogul service flight. Notice it includes radar targets, parachutes, a banner, and a small payload. This is an example of a simple gear flight as noted in the technical drawing above. Expendable and not searched for as with research flights that carried experimental measuring equipment.


2- Mogul Service and Research Flights Were Being Launched From Alamogordo

TIMING OF CRASHED SAUCER AND MOGUL/SERVICE FLIGHT LAUNCHES

- Crashed Flying Saucer -

July 8, 1947 The Roswell Daily Record


Date Mac Brazel says he found the debris according to his newspaper interview:



Debris found June 14, 1947

Source

___________________________________________________________________________________

- Balloon Launches -

From New York University Progress Report - No. 7
July 1947

c. 1. GENERAL WORK ACCOMPLISHED

Field tests were conducted at Alamogordo Army Air Base during the week of June 1, using clusters of meteorological balloons. The primary object of these tests was to perfect handling and launching techniques for large flights and to check the operation of various altitude controlling devices developed for this project.

books.google.com...=onepage&q=field&f=false

Charles Moore Interview:

Q: So to go with the June 14th date (Brazel finding debris) what type of flight do you think would have...

A: All the balloons launched in that period would have been meteorological balloons, 350 grams meteorological balloons, some of them with radar targets just to test the radar out and some of them, I'd forgotten all about it, but Crary's diary said we had sonobouy microphones on some of them.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=service&f=false

From Albert Crary's (Mogul's Field Operation Director) journal kept from 4/2/46-5/8/46 and 12/2/46-8/16/47:

June 1 Sun. Left 0400, arrived in Alamogordo about 0930 - 800 miles to base from Houston. C-47 with Moore, Schneider and others from NYU. Also Ireland, Minton, Olsen, NYU men worked on balloons today in north hanger

June 2 Mon. Changed shooting plans to coordinate with balloon flights. Balloon all ready to go. Receiver on plane on ground...

books.google.com...=onepage&q=june&f=false

Mogul and experimental flights began with the arrival of Charles Moore and the NYU balloon crew in Alamogordo on June 1, 1947.

June 4 Wed. Out to Tularosa Range and fired charges between 00 and 06 this am. No balloon flights again on account of clouds. Flew a regular sono bouy up in a cluster of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on plane. Out with Thompson pm. Shot charges from 1800 to 2400.

books.google.com...=onepage&q=june&f=false

"No balloon flights again" means Mogul Flight (4) aka a research flight with attached electronic measuring equipment was not launched. The "regular sono bouy" launch on June 4, 1947 would have been another simple experimental service flight with a cluster of rubber meteorological balloons and multiple radar targets to continue testing the existing ground V-2 radar reception of the balloon arrays. This balloon cluster would have been expendable and not recovered.

The June 4th "regular" launch would be perfect timing and candidate for the crash at the Foster ranch which Brazel walked up on 10 days later on June 14, 1947. Other service flights with meteorological balloons and radar targets were being launched during this period and not recorded, but for the sake of it being noted in Albert Crary's journal on June 4th, we can use the June 4th date as a recorded example.

3- Mogul Service and Research Flights Were Being Launched the First Week Of June 1947

MULTIPLE RADAR TARGET USE ON SERVICE FLIGHTS

Radiosonde transmitters had been used for years to successfully track weather balloons and this was the intended method of tracking for Mogul balloon arrays. However, because of size and weight (500 lbs) limits of the B-17, project scientist Dr. James Peoples decided to leave the radiosonde on the east coast while the NYU balloon crew flew to Alamogordo. Dr. Peoples believed tracking would be successful using the existing ground V-2 radar in Alamogordo used to track missiles.

Charles Moore Interview"

A: My memory is that Jim Peoples, because we were being sent down by B-17 and by air, didn't let us take the radiosonde receiving equipment which at the time was very heavy. It was like a 500 pound rack with a receiver, frequency meter, recorder, etc., and we weren't allowed to use that. Instead, the idea was that Peoples would provide tracking on the balloons with radar targets and so on. So this is where I think radar targets come in...

The V-2 radar was unsuccessful in tracking balloon arrays. Charles Moore (Mogul project engineer - head of constant-level balloon development) and his crew tried various "unorthodox" methods of radar target use, but were still unsuccessful.

So I think we tried the radar targets, as I remember, our contact who was Captain Larry Dyvad found that they weren't able to track our flights at all. They had a radar that was entirely aimed at looking at missiles. To look at slow moving balloons with poor signal return was difficult for them. So we started off with making single target flights. I think we went to multiple target flights, and still didn't have any success...

books.google.com...=onepage&q=rack&f=false

May 1947 Bethlehem Penn. Flight No. 2 drawing. Test with 3 radar targets attached:


Photos of multiple radar target use in Alamogordo:



4- Multiple Radar Targets Were Attached To Those Service Flights Launched The First Week Of June In Alamogordo NM

SIMILARITY OF CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS OF FLYING DISC AND SERVICE/MOGUL FLIGHTS

- Flying Disc Material -

Jesse Marcel:
...little members, small members, solid members that could not bend or break, but it didn't look like metal. It looked more like wood.

You couldn't even tell you had it in your hands – just like you handle balsa wood.

stuff there that looked very much like parchment.

Marcel also mentions foil-like material in numerous other interviews

Mac Brazel:
...when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks...

There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

No strings or wire were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.
Mac Brazel July 9, 1947 newspaper interview

Source

1. Rubber
2. Tinfoil
3. Parchment - Tough Paper
4. Small Wood-like Members Like Balsa Wood - Sticks
5. Eyelets

________________________________________________________________________________________________

- Service/Mogul Flight Material -

Balloons:

Flight A through Flight 7 (Nov 20, 1946-July 2, 1947) were made with neoprene meteorological balloons.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=FLIGHT&f=false

Radar Targets:
Weather balloon Radar Targets-

Triangular shaped, aluminum foil backed on balsa frame.

Meteorology Parts And Technical Manual
Source

Target ML307/AP is made of aluminum foil with wooden reinforcements to prevent collapse aloft.

Meteorologic Equipment Data Sheets
Direct PDF download Source

Weather balloon target ML307/AP:

Revised Radar Target

Target ML307C/AP blueprint below. Revised version of weather target ML307/AP mentioned above:

Full blueprint:
books.google.com...=onepage&q=blueprint&f=false

List of updated components of target ML307C/AP:

- Aluminum Foil Paper
- Bracing for Wood
- Reinforcements
- Scotch Acetate Film Tape or Equal
- MIL-C-4003 (Air Force Spec) Synthetic Base Glue or Equal
- Eyelets

Closeup of notations from bottom right of blueprint:


1. Neoprene/Rubber
2. Aluminum Foil
3. Aluminum Foil Paper
4. Balsa Wood Beams
5. Eyelets

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Comparison Table of Saucer Parts to Target Parts:

5- The Materials And Construction Method Of Service Flights Are Consistent With Those Of The Crashed "Disc"

PROXIMITY OF BALLOON LAUNCHES TO FLYING SAUCER CRASH SITE

The flying saucer crash site is approximately 80 miles to the northeast of the Alamogordo balloon launch site.

There was also a launch of a cluster (with Mogul equipment) on June 5th that crashed 25 miles to the east of Roswell:

June 5, 1947. ...B-17 and most personnel out to Roswell - recovered equipment some 25 mi east of Roswell....

Albert Crary's journal entry
books.google.com...=snippet&q=regular&f=false

Although weather changes from day to day, some balloon flights trended towards Roswell. So much so, that a letter was written and meeting arranged with the Regional Airspace Subcommittee to advise of this risk and to seek approval of further balloon launches from Alamogordo.

AIR COORDINATING COMMITTEE
FORTH WORTH REGIONAL AIRSPACE SUBCOMMITTEE

August 21, 1947

2. It was first thought that balloons would ascend and descend within the confines of the White Sand presently assigned danger area and that no further authorization would be required; however the Subcommittee was advised by the University that balloons have been descending outside of the area in the vicinity of Roswell, NM. It, therefore, appeared that there was a certain amount of hazard to aircraft encountered in the descent of this equipment.

books.google.com...=onepage&q=subcommittee&f=false

6- The Launching Of Mogul Service And Research Flights Was Only 80 Miles Away To The Southwest Of The Crash Site


===========================================================================================

- Summation -

1- Mogul was still experimental and not a fully functioning program when it arrived in Alamogordo NM.

2- Mogul service and research flights were being launched from Alamogordo.

3- Mogul service and research flights were being launched the first week of June 1947. (The same time-frame as the Roswell "disc" crash.)

4- Multiple radar targets were attached to those first service flights launched in Alamogordo NM.

5- The materials and construction method of the service flights are consistent with those of the crashed "disc."

6- The launching of Mogul service and research flights was only 80 miles away to the southwest of the crash site.


When you systematically approach this case from the beginning point by point and don't casually dismiss the coincidences and jump to: "Oh my god the properties of this material have to be alien!" you see there are far too many shared facts. From the similar construction of the "disc" and service flights, the timing of balloon launches to Roswell crash, to the close location for it just to be a chance.

Because of space, I only discuss few points made by diehard believers/followers of this incident, below.

WEATHER BALLOON AND MOGUL FLIGHT DIFFERENCES

- Jesse Marcel, being in the Air Force, would have certainly recognized a weather balloon!

-------------------------------------------------

- Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon, he said.

The Differences -- Re: 1940's

Meteorological/Weather Balloon Flights:
Objective: Used by the military and civilian agencies such as the National Weather Service to measure weather data for forecasting. Equipment launched by balloon(s).

Launched across the U.S. and the world by meteorological stations typically with a large hydrogen or helium-filled balloon. Attached would be a small expendable instrument package that weighed only 250 to 500 grams. It measured barometric pressure, relative humidity, temperature, etc. Many times a radar target/reflector (model ML307 for ex.) would be attached to assist tracking of the balloon and measure wind speed and direction. The balloons would stay adrift for periods lasting around 2 hours feeding information. Once reaching high altitude, the rubber/neoprene balloon(s) would expand in diameter and burst because of the lower surrounding air pressure. A small parachute attached would slow the decent of equipment:

Some targets and/or equipment would land in fields and farms fully intact:

Above is an example of what Jesse Marcel and Mac Brazel would find.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Projects Mogul, Skyhook, etc. Flights:
Objective: To spy on the Soviets after the development of nuclear weapons by the United States. Equipment launched by balloon(s).

Launched in the mid/late 40's initially with large clusters of rubber/neoprene meteorological balloons from New York. The project moved to Alamogordo NM because of weather conditions. The rubber balloons were soon replaced by large plastic polyethylene balloons because of the constant leveled flights and extended periods required. The larger polyethylene balloons were only inflated enough to carry the cargo aloft. This gave the balloon a deflated look when launched. Once it reached high altitudes, it would expand because of the drop in surrounding air pressure. With the use polyethylene, they would not burst as quickly as with rubber/neoprene, but instead stay aloft in the stratosphere for longer periods awaiting the recording of sounds waves (Project Mogul intention) or registering of charged particle tracks (Project Skyhook intention) of nuclear bomb testing. Radar targets were attached in the beginning with Mogul to track the flights. The ML307B and ML307C were updated and strengthened versions of the ML307 reflectors sometimes used with weather balloons. As with the balloons, these targets also needed to be made of stronger material than with weather balloon versions because of the constant leveled flights required. Tags were attached to all Mogul flights with rewards offered for the return of the expensive equipment.


The difference:
- Weather balloons were used as temporary measuring devices to record weather conditions by meteorologists. Typically contained one balloon, one radar target (if used) and a small instrument package. These flights were designed and only lasted a couple/few hours before completing their objective.
- Spy project balloons were to be used for reconnaissance missions to spy on Soviet nuclear weapon development and had to remain at high altitudes for extended periods. Meaning, while using the same time-tested method as weather balloons, the components involved with these missions had to be strengthened in order to complete their objective.

While weather balloon targets could occasionally be found complete, what was found on the Foster ranch, namely multiple radar targets and at least portions from one balloon from the array, had been ripped apart, destroyed, and been sitting in the sun and weather for at least 10 days before being discovered by Mac Brazel. If not scattered because of the initial crash to Earth, the weather could have moved the debris over a large area in those 10 days.

You have to also note that this debris had no consequence to Mac Brazel when it was initially found on June 14th. He simply moved some of the debris and went about his work. It wasn't until July, after Kenneth Arnold and other sightings occurred and newspapers offered a reward for the recovery of a saucer, when Brazel thought maybe what he found was a flying saucer. With $$ in his eyes, he went back and picked up some debris and brought it to town on July 8th.

PURPLE/PINK MARKINGS ON TAPE AND THE LETTERS

Marcel - Pratt interview 1979:

...some of those they had little markings, a two-color markings as I recall – like Chinese writing to me. Nothing you could make any sense out of."

Source

Brazel in July 1947:

Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

Source

_____________________________________________________________________________

Colonel Albert Trakowski:

I remember so clearly when the contractor for these targets was selected, and Jack (Peterson) thought it was the biggest joke in the world that they had to go to a toy manufacturer to make these targets. Then it was an even bigger joke when it turned out that because of wartime scarcities of materials, the tape that they had used to assemble these targets, the reflecting material on the balsa frames, was some kind of a pinkish purple tape with heart and flower designs on it. This was, again, a big flap.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=toy&f=false

Professor Charles Moore Interview:

I do remember every time I prepared one of these targets for flight, I always wondered why these figures were on the tape. There was always a question of why they were there. When this purplish-pink marking on the debris came up, I immediately remember this sort of marking.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=purplish-pink&f=false

Professor Charles Moore Affidavit:

I have specific recollection of reinforcing tape applied to the seams of the reflectors that had some symbols like arcs, flowers, circles, and diamonds. They were pinkish in color.

books.google.com...=onepage&q=arcs&f=false

Note on the revised 307C/AP blueprint, there is a mention of using Scotch brand tape and placement on the seams of the target:

"SHALL BE SCOTCH ACETATE FILM TAPE (?) AS MADE BY MINNESOTA MINING & MFG CO ST. PAUL MINN OR EQUAL."

This has been discussed by others before, but Scotch and other brand acetate tapes came in different printed designs:


If targets were sourced by toy companies to China, it's logical to assume Chinese type characters, geometric designs, or flowers could have similarly been printed on tape as described by witnesses.

________________________________________________________________

LETTERS ON THE DEBRIS

Mac Brazel mentions seeing letters on some of the debris:

There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts.

On the revised ML307C/AP blueprint, there's a notation for the model number to be printed on the target:

PROPERTIES OF THE MATERIAL

During Mac Brazel's newspaper interview on July 9, 1947, there was no mention of material with amazing properties. The only description he gave was that the paper found was "tough." You would think he would have mentioned something in the newspaper interview to help substantiate his claim and "go on record" it was a possible crashed saucer. This would help lead him to the $3,000 reward offered at the time for recovery of a flying saucer/disc by papers.

You also have the stories that claim Brazel was seen around town with two military men who coerced him to change his story. What part of his story? The material he mentions in his newspaper interview is basically the same as what Jesse Marcel mentions:
- Very small wood or balsa-like sticks.
- Foil-like material.
- Parchment.

To Brazels:
- Sticks
- Tinfoil
- Paper

With those three materials, they both still describe what is used to make a radar target. The military coercion story has to be created because Brazel goes into more detail adding rubber strips, eyelets, and Scotch tape which describes, without a doubt, radar targets that were being launched 80 miles away in Alamogordo.

It's claimed those two military men waited for him outside of the KLSA studio when he gave his interview. Were these men who "coerced" him in what to say, upset by these comments made:

they simply could not reconstruct it all. They tried to make a kite out of it, but could not do that and could not find a way to put it back together so that it would fit.

Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

Those statements throw a wrench into the weather balloon "cover story" that the military came up with. Doesn't he put into jeopardy the "pay off" that the military supposedly gave him? Why would he jeopardize jail time, threats, a pay off, or whatever the claim is, by making those statements? It doesn't add up. What does add up is that Brazel was being 100% honest in his statement in the newspaper. Giving details of exactly what he found ending with the true confusion that the debris didn't match any weather balloon he had found previously. This confusion (and reward) leads him to Roswell with the debris and his questioning. This fits true to the story.


Jesse Marcel's comments began with UFOlogist Stanton Friedman calling and talking to him. This 30+ year old story didn't freely come about because Marcel was aching to get this amazing UFO/alien tale out. It came with the biased promotion and retelling encouraged by UFOlogists. In fact, during his Bob Pratt interview in 1979 he said: "I'd just about dismissed the whole thing from my mind." He hadn't even thought about the incident until it was mentioned. That doesn't sound like someone hanging on to an amazing tale of unforgettable materials with super alien properties. With that said, what I believe to be 30+ year old embellishment of properties of this material and the possible unusual nature of it in comparison to what was familiar, is below.

- The Support Sticks/Beams -

Weather Balloons:
On weather balloon targets, the support sticks would have been plain wood or balsa wood. The need for strength wouldn't be necessary since these targets would only be flown for a couple of hours before the balloon would burst.

Mogul/Service Flights:
Charles Moore on the strength properties of the Mogul/Roswell support sticks:

I think some of the balsa wood was dipped in something like Elmer's glue, and as a result had some sort of glue coating on it which would make it somewhat resistant to burning.

...balsa wood beams that were coated in an "Elmer's-type" glue to enhance their durability...

In the revised ML307C/AP blueprint, Air Force Spec "MIL-C-4003 Synthetic Base Glue" was to be used on the intersecting portions of the beams needed for strength:


This could support Moore's claim of glue on the beams. Having the targets farmed out to other companies, we don't know the process of how these targets were constructed or how much glue was applied to strengthen them. Coating a balsa wood beam in synthetic glue, could make it hard to whittle/cut with a pocket knife, make it flexible enough to bend but not break, and as Moore pointed out in his interview, make it somewhat resistant to burning. Especially in comparison to a plain balsa wood beam which would have been common on weather balloon targets. Marcel mentions balsa wood like in weight and size in numerous interviews.

- Foil-like Material -

Weather Balloons:
This was discussed and shown above, weather balloon targets would have used regular foil. There was no need to track weather balloon longer and a couple of hours so strength was not a priority.

Mogul/Service Flights:
"Aluminum Foil Paper" is the notation on the updated ML307C/AP blueprint. It's listed in the same area of reinforcements, braces, adhesive tape. Again, we don't know the manufacturer and what material might have been used. If these were Chinese produced targets that needed to meet the military revised standards, any type of aluminum/silver backed material could have been used. These weren't the typical radar targets that had been produced.

Even given the exaggerated properties above, there's no getting around the fact that everything else: timing of balloon flights, location, construction material, etc. would have to be astronomical coincidences. You have to consciously choose to ignore the similarities and choose to believe this was an alien spacecraft. I've said this before but I believe it's a good example -- Imagine if pieces of a modern day B-2 bomber came crashing onto the Foster ranch in 1947. Would there be a single piece of debris found that wouldn't share common construction materials with balloon flights that were being launched 80 miles away? I think the answer would be - of course. This is with human strides only 70 years into our own future.

I think Charles Moore summed it up in his affidavit:

I can think of no other explanation for Roswell than one of our early June service flight balloons.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

C'mon man that's a lot of hype for a friggin weather balloon.

Great post, and very well presented. S&F!

I will forever be intrigued by Roswell and uncovering wtf truly went down there and shortly after. It is very difficult discerning fact from fiction here, which helps keep the event strong.

It seems obvious after all these years that the initial reports were probably closer to the truth.

What a great thread.

Stanton Friedman posted here back in '04 his thoughts on Mogul.

His first part about Left at East Gate being a good book, (now proven to be a fiction by Warren), just shows we can't take as given the words of behemoths in UFOlogy. Nor should we hang everything on witnesses. Buuuuut this Rendelsham hooplah all just came out in the last year so not Stan's fault.
Friedman's main gist in his post below was Mogul does not explain witness testimonies. I do agree, but just want to again highlight the Warren debacle sadly casts a shadow on witnesses for the BIG stories.

originally posted by: Stanton Friedman
I have talked to Colonel Halt, Peter Robbins, Larry Warren, Georgina Bruni, Nick Pope aand others about Rendlesham mostly in the UK. I am satisfied that this was a real flying saucer event and that the criticsms don't stand up. The basic government line in the UK and the USA is that there are no alien visitors so one can't admit that any are here and have landed. Left at East Gate is a good book.

Mogul was known about back in 1980 when Bill Moore and I were researching the Roswell Incident as described in The Roswell Incident.
USAF Colonel Richard Weaver wrote the huge 1994 Report "The Roswell Report: Truth Vs. Fiction in the New Mexico Desert" He provided the fiction ,not only lying but with selective choice of data. even lying about me and Major Marcel. I wrote a long paper about what was wrong with the Mogul explanation. The History channel on Oct. 10 showed a huge polyethelene Balloon.. NONSENSE, Mogul Balloon trains prior to July 7, 1947 included 20-25 small neorpene balloons at 20' intervals, sonobuoys, radar reflectors etc. The characteristics of the balloons don't match at all witness descriptions from Major Marcel, his son Dr. Jesse Marcel, The rancher's testimony, his son's testimony etc clearly are not of MOGUL.. The Mogul program was cancelled decades ago because it wasn't a great idea. Evidence of the 1st Soviet nuclear test came from air sampling by military planes after the August 1949 first Soviet nuclear test.. not from Mogul. Colonel Weaver's specialty was, not surprisingly, Disinformation.

When queried the offical view is careflly worded propaganda.. no sighting investigated evaluated by the USAF gives any evidence of being a threatto the security of the USA.. neither do the penguins in Antactica.. but they also are real.
The USAF does not have in its possession any flying saucers.. so if the Army, Navy, NSA, MJ_12 did, it would still be a true but meaningless statement. The USAF has no evidence that UFOs represent technology beyond our knowledge . I worked on nuclear fusion 42 years ago.. it is not beyond our knowledge. In short there is lots of denial echoed by SETI Cultists (SETI stands for Silly Effort to Investigate) as I noted in a recent column in the MUFON Journal

Stan Friedman

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Oh and the the I beam and hieroglyphs being explained as sticky tape....whaaat
S and F

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Stanton Friedman has bot books about flying saucers to sell, of course he would deny any terrestrial explanation.

If the Army back then had found the pile of foil and sticks as shown in a retraction story, then how could they have possibly mistaken that rubbish for a flying saucer that was said that they found, and a General was the one to first give the okay on that story?.. I know first hand what liars military brass can be. They still haven't changed much.

Wasn't a balloon they first found. They found a balloon later after getting it, (oh look what we just found), so they could get pictures of it for the retraction story.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

You are exactly right and your recollection was the first thought which came to mind. The irony is the reason the brass actually reported what they found is there was no protocol in place for how to handle crashed "flying saucers". For once they actually told the truth the first time out of the gate. Then they were like, "We f**ked up".

Retraction time.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Soundly documented!

Thank you. Star & flag for this thread.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Still doenst explain big black triangles, the secret space program, black budget USAP's etc...
Nice try though!

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

So all of the connecting stories that support the UFO version of the affair are false in one way or another and the government is to be believed when there is tons of hard evidence right up to this minute that "flying saucers" and other alien-type craft have been visiting Earth for a long time?

a reply to: Ectoplasm8
Great thread! S&F!

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
If the Army back then had found the pile of foil and sticks as shown in a retraction story, then how could they have possibly mistaken that rubbish for a flying saucer that was said that they found, and a General was the one to first give the okay on that story?.

. I know first hand what liars military brass can be. They still haven't changed much.

Wasn't a balloon they first found. They found a balloon later after getting it, (oh look what we just found), so they could get pictures of it for the retraction story.

Brazel called it a "disk" because he was trying to collect a $3000 reward for a disk, so that explains where the "disk" idea came from, it was just reward oriented phrasing. The FBI memo put "Disc" in quotes indicating they didn't necessarily think that was an accurate description. Before Brazel found out about the $3000 reward, he didn't think much of what he found and told his daughter Bessie who was helping him pick it up it was "just a bunch of garbage".

This is Bessie Brazel's description of the "Disk", she helped her father pick up the debris when she was 14 years old:

Roswell Witness Bessie Brazel

Because, what Bessie said was:

"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other... Sticks, like kite sticks, were attacked to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The 'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors... The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil... I do not recall anything else about the strength or other properties of what we picked up. We spent several hours collecting the debris and putting it into sacks. I believe we filled about three sacks... We speculated a bit about what the material could be. I remember dad (Mac Brazel) saying 'Oh, it's just a bunch of garbage.' "

When Bessie was shown the November/December 1990 issue of the International UFO Reporter (IUR), Pages 6, 7, and 8 of that issue showed the Roswell photographs. She later wrote:

"The debris shown does look like the debris we picked up."
(Jan 10, 1994 letter from Bessie Brazel Schrieber)

Even Randle admits that those photographs are of ML-307 radar target(s) and weather sounding balloon(s).

So the debris from a supposed crashed alien spaceship looks exactly like ML-307 radar targets and weather sounding balloons!

After reading that I fail to see how you can proclaim "Wasn't a balloon they first found."??

It certainly sounds like a balloon and radar targets, doesn't it?

One other thing: The man who made up the story about the bodies was one of the owners of the Roswell museum trying to drive traffic to his museum out in the middle of nowhere, but nobody ever seems to mention his ownership in the Roswell museum. We do know that there was never any nurse named "Naomi Maria Self" who he said was the Nurse who witnessed the bodies, so that's how we know he's lying.

Well researched, well presented and well laid out Ecto.

But we cannot let the first pillar on which ufology stands collapse can we? For fear that if it crumbles then so too will the whole field of ufology with it.

In July 1947 it was a flying disk. (Although we should remember that back then flying saucers and disks were not necessarily considered to be alien spacecraft).


Something else that has very different associations now as well

Then it was just a weather balloon.

Then things went quiet until Stanton Friedman gets hold of Jesse Marcel.



No mention of aliens there but an interesting find that the FBI described it as an 'experimental kite' from an unnamed organisation.

Jesse Marcel finally comments "It was not anything of this Earth. That I am quite sure of".

I think the lasting legacy of the Roswell legend imprinted in many people's minds comes from two TV programmes. Very well produced ones as well from the 90s.





Both based heavily on the UFO literature of the time. But leaving a lasting impression.

It was different times back then. We couldn't easily see copies of newspapers from the time, interviews with witnesses, documents etc. Only those which were presented on TV or in books and magazines to re-inforce a viewpoint.

The US government reports in the mid 90s were also produced saying it was all a Mogul balloon (their third explanation). What I do find strange is that I've never seen any documents backing up the investigation and conclusion it was actually a Mogul ballon. Nor does it seem any photos were taken of the debris field or of the wreckage anywhere. Is that because it was totally unimportant?

I am not trying to convince anyone about what happened at Roswell any more. It's up to everyone to make their own minds up. And many people already have.

what people forget is the fact that roswell wasnt the only crash, there were thousands of crashes both at that time and on other decades: www.alienhub.com...
it was only a matter of time one of them would coincide with an balloon launch