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POLITICS: Israeli Rabbis Pray For Peace Talk Failure

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posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 06:27 AM
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Let me ask you all something.... what happens when you have lived in a piece of land which you did not claim and did not own, but 2 years latter someone buys the rights to that property and moves in....

Who has the right by law to be in that land?.... add to that the fact that the man who bought the claims to the property can prove that his people lived in that piece of land long before the other man, or that man's people.....

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]




posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Let me ask you all something.... what happens when you have lived in a piece of land which you did not claim and did not own, but 2 years latter someone buys the rights to that property and moves in....

Who has the right by law to be in that land?.... add to that the fact that the man who bought the claims to the property can prove that his people lived in that piece of land long before the other man, or that man's people.....


What makes you say they did not claim it?
The Arabs in Palestine claimed the right to the land and demanded independence at a time when they were a majority by far.
Way back to the earliest days following the end of WW1.

Read the document below from 1922:

1922-07 UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Org (United Nations)

The Delegation requests that the constitution for Palestine should—
(1) Safeguard the civil, political and economic interests of the
People.
(2) Provide for the creation of a national independent Government in
accordance with the spirit of paragraph 4, Article 22, of the
Covenant of the League of Nations.
(3) Safeguard the legal rights of foreigners.
(4) Guarantee religious equality to all peoples.
(5) Guarantee the rights of minorities.
(6) Guarantee the rights of the Assisting Power.
The Delegation is quite confident that the justice of the British
Government and its sense of fair play will make it consider the above
remarks with a sympathetic mind, since the Delegation's chief object is
to lay in Palestine the foundation of a stable Government that would
command the respect of the inhabitants and guarantee peace and prosperity
to all.


I would also like to know how the Jewish persons can claim rights to lands inhabited by the Arabs for 1,200 years when the Jewish persons had only lived there in great numbers for about 400 years and that was thousands of years ago, not decades ago like the Palestine Arabs.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 07:34 AM
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Muaddib, we are talking about two different things and you keep refering to ancient history.

I am talking about how things are now, in the 21st century.
Illegal settlements are bulit on somebody else's land and the claim for that land is "in my 3,000 year old story my god gave land to my ancestors, which btw are not my real ancestors since my family only recently converted to judaism".

That has to stop if you want to establish peace in the middle east.
The only solution is the creation of Palestine as an independent state next to Israel.

In the real world, you cannot expect that they just wake up one day and hug eachother like nothing happened. You have to separate them, create separate states, with separate goverments, so that they both actualy have some kind of infrastructure, responsibility, authority which is capable of enforcing laws and regulations.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 08:12 AM
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Of course how can palestinians continue to die horribly if there is a sudden outbreak of peace! Makes perfect sense, sadly...



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
From what I know of Jewish Israelis is that there is an intolerance of Palestinians that worse then Americas treatment of Blacks in the 50s. to the point of treating them as the "Untouchable" class in India.[/quote
Except, of course, for the jewish israelis that don't mistreat or hate palestinians.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 08:47 AM
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This kind of discussion is indicative of why this conflict has festered for the past half century.

Both sides have legitimate greivances and there is no clear cut right or wrong side in this conflict. Thats why it is a perpetual cycle of violence.

The Zionists achieved the creation of Israel through the UN with a majority vote. That is internationally legal, period. It was not fair on the Palestinians though, to them it was unacceptable. The Jews needed a home land but why should it be Palestinians that gets to give up their land? Why were they so lucky?

To understand why the UN made that decision you have to remember the Jews had come close to being exterminated by the Nazi's not long before and there were literally thousands of them displaced by WW2. They had large amounts of sympathy in the World community and they got what they wanted.

So theres the Israeli's sob story, the Palestinians sob story is more apparent and easier to emapthise with.

They had their COUNTRY confiscated. I defy any nation to find that acceptable and to not fight those responsible. In addition to their country being taken from them they had their HOMES, BUSINESSES and FARMS confiscated. Who among us can honestly say they would find this acceptable and wouldnt fight back?

They've been crammed into refugee camps and when they stab at those they obviously see as invaders they find helicopters firing missiles into those refugee camps.

The Israeli's loudly shout their right to defend themselves against these terrorists but I wonder how many of them realise that the modern terrorist model was created by Zionists to get the British out of Palestine. Modern Jewish militants CREATED MODERN TERRORISM! Maybe the British should of rounded up all Jews into camps and flattend the houses of those terrorists.

What needs to be agreed upon is that both sides have done wrong:

Palestinians should of only targeted the Israeli Military to legitimise their struggle. Killing civilians, not matter what cause, is unacceptable.

Israeli's, no matter what reason you give, invaded and took land from an existing nation.

The only solution to this I can see is just what is currently going on. Israel needs to withdraw from occupied lands and the Palestinians need their own State.

The only additions I would add to this plan is Israeli financial compensation for the land they took from Palestinians. Not to individuals but to the newly created state of Palestine.

Also Jerusalem should become an international and independant zone to both states of Israel and Palestine. It should be governed by a UN agency or some other independant body. Similar to how the Vatican is independant to Rome.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 10:31 AM
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subz, that would probly be a very likely solution except for the many foreign nations funding and supporting either side of this conflict. Israeli's would not have anywhere near the military it has without US supporting them. (over 2 billion dollars a year) This has created a incredibly unfair advantage for one side.

Most scholars have agreed it is not a "war" because of religion, but just wanting land



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by subz
They had their COUNTRY confiscated. I defy any nation to find that acceptable and to not fight those responsible.

It was a british mandate no, not an independant Palestinian State?


they would find this acceptable and wouldnt fight back?

Fight? Yes, they fought alongside a wider arab alliance. They were utterly defeated and lost anything resembling independence for the west bank.


They've been crammed into refugee camps

Because they made war on israel and lost. No nation has a 'right' to 'win' a war after loosing it. If the palestinians want an independant palestine, then they need to make war on the israelis. They do not. They engage in terrorism, rather than actual war.


Modern Jewish militants CREATED MODERN TERRORISM!

Indeed, the jews in british mandated palestine engaged in terrorism to get the brits out. I don't know if you can say that they invented modern terrorism, certainly the palestinains didn't learn it from the jews. THe IRA was apparently influential in training PLO people.


Maybe the British should of rounded up all Jews into camps and flattend the houses of those terrorists.

Entirely different. There was no jewish state that made war on the british state. THe palestinians had a state, went to war with israel, and lost. Now, they are a defeated people and their country is under legitimate occupation. If the jews had done something similiar to the brits, then of course the brits would be justified in occupying their country.


What needs to be agreed upon is that both sides have done wrong:

Irrelevant. The british promised a jewish homeland, the UN created it. Independant Palestine went to war with it and lost. 'Wrong or Right' is irrelevant.


Israeli's, no matter what reason you give, invaded and took land from an existing nation.

They invaded an enemy that was invading them. They occupy a defeated enemy state.


Israel needs to withdraw from occupied lands and the Palestinians need their own State.

I agree 100%. THere is no advantage to occupying the west bank at this point. The palestinians, however do not accept that. THey want, additionally, a right of return to israel, and an independant capital in jerusalem. Right of Return is somethign that the israelis, simply, will never permit, under any circumstances. Hence no peace hence the continued occupation.


The only additions I would add to this plan is Israeli financial compensation for the land they took from Palestinians. Not to individuals but to the newly created state of Palestine.

Certainly a workable proposition, but wasn't some sort of recompense given to the palestinians when first evicted? I'm not sure.

Short of a workable compromise, the Palestinians should, en mass, fight against the israelis, and the arabs shoudl support them. War is probably the only thing that can resolve this 'intractable conflict'. The arabs don't want to do that tho, since israel has already defeated them.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
What makes you say they did not claim it?
The Arabs in Palestine claimed the right to the land and demanded independence at a time when they were a majority by far.
Way back to the earliest days following the end of WW1.
.........................
I would also like to know how the Jewish persons can claim rights to lands inhabited by the Arabs for 1,200 years when the Jewish persons had only lived there in great numbers for about 400 years and that was thousands of years ago, not decades ago like the Palestine Arabs.


How exactly is that an official claim to the State of Palestine?....

The Palestinians fought against the Israelis in many wars in present history, the Israelis won all the wars, and the Israelis gave back to the Palestinians most of those lands they captured...

The land has always belonged to those who could keep it, mostly by force, that is a reality of human history. The Israelis as a people have lived longer in Israel than Palestinians, but for a long time the Israelis had to conform to the mandates of the Palestinians....


Arab-Israeli wars
The Arab nations initiated four wars against Israel:

1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). (see Camp-David Accords). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.


Excerpted from.
www.science.co.il...

BTW, the Ottoman Turks controlled the lands of Palestine and Israel also for a long time...so not only the Arabs took those lands by force, until 1918.

BTW....if we are going to argue that a letter by the Brittish is what gives anyone the right to claim land, then you missed the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917.


1917 The British government issued the Balfour Declaration on November 2, in the form of a letter to a British Zionist leader from the foreign secretary Arthur J. Balfour prmissing him the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.


Excerpted from.
www.palestinehistory.com...

Do notice that the link is Palestinian.

---edited for errors---

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 01:55 PM
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Well some are confused here, I though the land of the Palestine was taken by the Israelis, because of God mandated.

And latter the Jewish were divided from the non Jewish Palestinians, and yes separated.

Actually is not longer true Palestinians in that area they were taken over by Arabs, so any true Palestinians has blended either with the Israelis or the Arabs. Yes palestine is the land of Arabs now.

Now about prayer, well I am non Religious person but that does not mean that praying does good to the soul, and bring resolutions and good vibes for the masses.




posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Well some are confused here, I though the land of the Palestine was taken by the Israelis, because of God mandated.

And latter the Jewish were divided from the non Jewish Palestinians, and yes separated.

Actually is not longer true Palestinians in that area they were taken over by Arabs, so any true Palestinians has blended either with the Israelis or the Arabs. Yes palestine is the land of Arabs now.

Now about prayer, well I am non Religious person but that does not mean that praying does good to the soul, and bring resolutions and good vibes for the masses.



Well, i am confused now, as I have no idea what you just said or what point you are trying to make. BTW, i am not trying to get back at you. I just dont understand what you are saying and how you can refute what i have presented.....

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 02:35 PM
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Sorry Muaddib you are such a scholar and I am just but a Spanish teacher, what can I said, Palestine is and always be Arab. bottom line, no prayer in the world is going to change the fact and the fight.

So please keep enlightening us with the historical facts.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Sorry Muaddib you are such a scholar and I am just but a Spanish teacher, what can I said, Palestine is and always be Arab. bottom line, no prayer in the world is going to change the fact and the fight.

So please keep enlightening us with the historical facts.


Wow...so you are ignoring every piece of evidence i just presented, which I did not make up or twist to fit anyone's agenda, you can read the links by yourself and make an informed decision.....

Are you including Israel as part of Palestine?..... Do you not know that Palestinians have rejected a Palestinian State, which they don't have yet, three times because they want all of Israel?.....

Bottom line is that Israel is a legal country, Palestine is not... You do know that the Jewish people could have at anytime taken all the land from Palestine in war....and kept it to themselves?..... but they haven't....

Even the Brittish empire gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people, it was not a mandate of God... Israel is a legal country, whether or not you agree with the religious implications is of no importance, what is important is that Israel, is legally a country, while Palestine is not a country yet... It is not a country mostly because Palestinians do not want a Palestine without the lands of Israel and all Jewish people gone...which is not going to happen...


[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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OK, I said that as a compliment but I think your are so high up in your knowledge that is clouding your mind.

Palestine is not a state you are right, Israel is, you are right.

Palestine had been invaded through the years by Arabs immigrants palestine is Arab, any vestige of the original people of the area has been erased by the Arabs take over.

Now do you understand what I am trying to said now, that is why piece can never be attained.

Now Muaddib get off the defensive stance and let others bring some light and opinions, ok.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
OK, I said that as a compliment but I think your are so high up in your knowledge that is clouding your mind.

Palestine had been invaded through the years by Arabs immigrants palestine is Arab, any vestige of the original people of the area has been erased by the Arabs take over.

Now do you understand what I am trying to said now, that is why piece can never be attained.


I am not a scholar Marg. The only degrees I hold are in electronic engineering and computer engineering, i just like to read a lot about history....

I didn't understand what you were saying Marg, sometimes is hard for me to grasp what you are trying to say, more so because for me, english is not my first or second language either.

BTW, since when knowledge clouds the mind?

Anyways, i see now what you were trying to say, and yes i agree with what you said, but it is also a bit more complicated than that.


[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 04:16 PM
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You are right is more complicated, than that because is not longer a call for nationalism within the population in Palestine.

It looks sometimes that their sole purpose is to cause as much damage to the area and to any relationships with Israel as they can.

Its hard to sympathized with them.

Plus is hard to take sides with Israel when so many people has die.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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Nygdan wrote: Fight? Yes, they fought alongside a wider arab alliance. They were utterly defeated and lost anything resembling independence for the west bank.
They were utterly defeated due to American interference and support of the Israelis. The Americans saw the Arab Alliance as the Soviets proxy Army and thus had to be defeated. But I still fail to see your point in raising that fact.

Just because they lost the war doesnt give the Israeli's carte blanch to fire rockets into refugee camps or demolish family homes because a terrorist allegedly lived there.


Nygdan wrote: THe IRA was apparently influential in training PLO people.
Dont you see the hypocrasy though? The Zionists first used terrorist tactics, bombing British buildings and killing scores of civilians, for their cause. How can they then show utter disgust and contempt for Palestinians using the exact same tactic? Its hypocrasy at its purest.


Nygdan wrote: Entirely different. There was no jewish state that made war on the british state. THe palestinians had a state, went to war with israel, and lost. Now, they are a defeated people and their country is under legitimate occupation. If the jews had done something similiar to the brits, then of course the brits would be justified in occupying their country
So youre saying because it was a Palestinian state that attacked Israel they're allowed to kill civilians in refugee camps and flatten innocent peoples homes without trial? And conversely because it wasnt an Zionist state that attacked the British then the same rules shouldnt apply? Well its nice to see that you draw such a neat distinction as to when killing civilians is acceptable.


Nygdan wrote: Irrelevant. The british promised a jewish homeland, the UN created it. Independant Palestine went to war with it and lost. 'Wrong or Right' is irrelevant.
The main point I was making is that the reason this conflict lasts so long is that there is no clear victim here. For example there was a clear case of who the victims were in WW2 and who needed to be defeated: Nazis. In this case there is no clear victim, no one party that is either right or wrong. It is relevant to my argument.


Nygdan wrote: They invaded an enemy that was invading them. They occupy a defeated enemy state.
I was refering to when they partitioned Palestinian land after the UN vote. To the Palestinians it mattered not that an International body had voted to give half your country to Jews. They were losing their land. You jumped the gun there.

Basically the thrust of my argument was that no side could claim victim status and ensure support from the global community. Unlike the situation with Germany and Japan during WW2.

[edit on 7/2/05 by subz]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by subz
Just because they lost the war doesnt give the Israeli's carte blanch to fire rockets into refugee camps or demolish family homes because a terrorist allegedly lived there.


And does it give the Palestinians the right to attack by suicide bombings and using rockets against Israeli buildings?

Doesn't Israel have the right to seek and take out those who are part of terrorist cells, including their leaders who keep encouraging terrorist attacks?... So, according to you Israel can't go after those who seek to create chaos and death in the State of Israel, but Palestinians can?....

Or Israelis are supposed just to stand by as they keep getting attacked constantly, just turning the other cheek and letting more of their people being murdered?...

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 10:59 AM
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No amount of prayer is going to fix the fact that Palestine is Arab and Israel is Christian, the fights between them will never stop.

Their conflict has become "The will of who's God is more powerful"



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Israel is Christian



huh?

And I always thought on
5 Iyar 5708, 14.5.1948 David Ben Gurion on the Proclamation of Independence declared:

[...] "Accordingly we, members of the People's Council, representatives of the Jewish Community of Eretz-Israel and of the Zionist Movement, are here assembled on the day of the termination of the British Mandate over Eretz-Israel and, by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel".


Rebekka




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