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Courts and parents at odds: Should dying British baby be brought to U.S. for help?

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posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 02:50 PM
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Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.

John Donne




Be a brave boy Charlie and rest easy. You're clearly among our best.


edit on 4-7-2017 by imwilliam because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 02:50 PM
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a reply to: audubon

no offense, but you probably dont understand genetics very well. We are learning with cutting edge research that its actually possible to CHANGE OUR GENES with environmental inputs. If you care to know more you can look it up yourself.

not only that, but our understanding of how epigenetics works is giving us new possibilities for treating previously untreatable disorders.

I guarantee you, unless this child has been given care by cutting edge geneticists and specialists in mitochondrial dna science he wasnt even given a chance.

i cant tell you how many doctors, maybe a couple dozen by now, ive personally quizzed about basic things with hormones, epigenetics, and the existence of the endocannabinoid system, and aside from recognizing the words most of them knew NOTHING about any of those. I put a bottle of pregnenolone on my GPs desk one visit and he had no idea what it was....pregnenolone....the grandmother hormone from which all other hormones are made. A hormone by the way that would probably help this child.

Not to mention, since his brain is compromised what have they been feeding him all this time? Did they cease all nourishment during this process of "compassionate killing" ?

As long as they were feeding him WHAT were they feeding him? Were they actually giving him ANYTHING that had the potential to arrest his condition? Somehow i really doubt it.

what about stimulation....any music....aromatherapy...ANYTHING at all besides harsh lights and buzzing machines in the room?


People are just dense...the human being needs MANY elements that minister to life in order to feel comforted and safe.....and having been in more than my share of hospital environments, including NICU, im very very unimpressed. For many of the nurses and doctors its just a job. Yes, often those that work with kids are more "gentle"....but most of them dont really care that much.....they cant....because when you DO become emotionally involved you burn out....so many of them detach emotionally. Strangely enough, since most people, including healthcare professionals, have never taken a course in logic, if they detach emotionally they have no intellectual fallback.......leaving only their "training" to carry them through.


as a side note, i have many healthcare practitioners in my family and one of my family is suing a doctor right now for malpractice and gross negligence.

doctors and scientists are not God or even gods....they are very fallible humans with agendas, biases and indifference.....and this poor child is suffering more from that than any of his physical maladies.


change DNA with diet
edit on 4-7-2017 by tribal because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 02:58 PM
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heres another article citing the benefits of MCT oil for mitochondrial disorders. MCT oil is particularly good as an energy source for the cells because it requires very little processing.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



a child who may have had the same disease as Charlie and was successfully treated in the US

metro.co.... uk/2017/07/04/father-of-boy-with-similar-condition-to-charlie-gard-says-he-deserves-opportunity-to-live-6754625/



posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: tribal

After five years Art Estopinan's son is still on ventilation and his hands and feet sometimes move. That is the only result this treatment is claimed to have achieved, and it's not even provable that the treatment achieved this anyway.

I dare say Mr Estopinian is happy with this state of affairs. There are people in the US who regard life as so sacred that they are willing to carry to term even the most clearly-doomed offspring. Ever heard of Myah Walker?

(TL;DR - mother is told she is carrying a baby with no brain and little chance of life. She goes ahead with the pregnancy, gives birth to a brainless child, and it dies after 93 days. Don't you just love a happy ending?)

Art Estopinan is not a medic, or trained in medicine. He might be content to think that he has a healthy child, or one with any prospect of anything like normal development. He's wrong, and has just been dragged onto a talkshow in order to milk the controversy for ratings.
edit on 4-7-2017 by audubon because: clarification



posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 07:19 PM
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POST REMOVED BY STAFF
edit on Tue Jul 4 2017 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 08:23 PM
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I would never let anyone near my child for any reason. PERIOD. Not a court, not a judge, not a politician, not a politically motivated satanic freak of a doctor. I would Serve and Protect my children with maximum force if necessary always, never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in existence would this change.


Would grab my child and never show up in court. They should already have left the country.
edit on 4-7-2017 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 10:42 PM
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This is the problem with socialized medicine. It sounds great... No more huge medical bills. The cost of treatment is paid for by the tax payers. It lowers the risk of someone going untreated because of not having insurance.

But the government has a say in health care. Lets say an elderly person ends up sick with something... Lets say cancer. The government can say "well they're old and the treatment is expensive. We cant waste money on this case" i find the whole thing with this child to be disgusting. The parents want to fight. That is their child and should have the right to fight.

I'm a parent of two. If either of my kids got sick i would do anything i had to to make them well. Even if it cost me my life or meant i had to ignore what the government told me to do. (Lets face it, the second would be a treat)



posted on Jul, 4 2017 @ 10:52 PM
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The Government has had nothing to do with this case. It has been decided by clinicians, and supported by courts in Britain all the way to the European Court of Human Rights.

It has nothing to do with "socialised medicine", and similar cases have happened in the USA (I cited one, a page or so back).

Anyone who thinks this case has anything to do with the British Government, 'death panels', socialism, euthanasia, eugenics, or anything else of the sort, is both ignorant and prefers to stay that way.

Save the calories you would waste on typing this sort of ill-informed drivel, and spend them clicking back to the first page of this thread, where you can read a realistic version of events.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 03:26 AM
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a reply to: audubon

The judicial branch is a branch of what? Is it the government? Hmmm. At any rate how ever you break it down no one has the right to over rule a parents wish. Doctor or judge. The parents have rights. As for the rest its not worthy of a response.


edit on 5-7-2017 by Somethingsamiss because: Misspelling



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 12:27 PM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy

LONDON — Charlie Gard, who turns 11 months old Tuesday, was born with an extremely rare genetic disease. He is blind and deaf, and he cannot breathe or move on his own. He suffers from persistent epileptic seizures.

Now the British infant is at the center of a global debate, drawing in the Vatican and President Donald Trump, over what medical treatment, if any, he is entitled to receive, and who decides — his family, his doctors or the courts.


“These terrible decisions have to be made all the time,” said Jonathan Moreno, a professor of ethics at the University of Pennsylvania. “It is very unusual for a case like this to explode on the global stage. They raise difficult moral and ethical questions.”



The London hospital that is treating Charlie has asked permission to remove him from life support. His parents want to take him to the United States, where they believe an experimental treatment has a chance — however remote — of prolonging his life, even though the disease has no cure.


www.seattletimes.com...


A difficult topic. A sad topic for anyone who is a parent. I'll give my opinion right off the bat; If the parents want to move mountains to care for their child, then they should be able to do so. The government should be bending over backwards to follow the parents wishes.

But who knows more? The parents or the government?

It sickens me to think that a cold government can so casually dismiss a parents desires to do anything and everything for their child.


What the hell? That makes no sense! You're saying the government should use resources to pander to the whim of every parent out there that wants to "bend over backwards" for their child? Yeah better start raising those taxes there bud because someone needs to pay! Resources come from somewhere!

The logical and reasonable thing to do in this case is to put the poor thing out of it's missery! Yes it is sad, yes it is unfortunate... But honestly, you wouldn't do that to an animal as it would cruel (keep it alive suffering).

If they have their own money and want to kick it up the street then that's fine... But they definitely do not have a right to do it with other peoples! It's a much more difficult topic but I'm not sure they have the right to prolong someones suffering either, however, I certainly wouldn't want to defer that right to the government either! Perhaps courts could decide or jury I don't know.

But just for example if this kid is in constant pain and discomfort is it not torture to keep him alive? I don't know the ins and outs, does he receive pain relief etc etc... But I would hazard a guess the poor thing is not having a party right now! Does anyone have the right to keep someone in the state?

I feel for the parents but I think they are being very selfish and stubborn and prolonging the suffering.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 12:38 PM
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originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
This is the problem with socialized medicine. It sounds great... No more huge medical bills. The cost of treatment is paid for by the tax payers. It lowers the risk of someone going untreated because of not having insurance.

But the government has a say in health care. Lets say an elderly person ends up sick with something... Lets say cancer. The government can say "well they're old and the treatment is expensive. We cant waste money on this case" i find the whole thing with this child to be disgusting. The parents want to fight. That is their child and should have the right to fight.

I'm a parent of two. If either of my kids got sick i would do anything i had to to make them well. Even if it cost me my life or meant i had to ignore what the government told me to do. (Lets face it, the second would be a treat)


This isn't a "kid that got sick" though... This is an 11 month old terminally ill baby... It's going to die and keeping it alive with constant seizures is just not acceptable to me. I get your feelings though towards your own children who are probably little people by now. But this baby has never had a good life and never will have a good life even with the experiemntal treatment.

Do the parents have a right to prolong this poor babies agonizing life? Just assuming it is in pure horrid torment every waking moment... The parents have a right to keep that going for as long as they wish and with other peoples money if needs be?



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 01:41 PM
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a reply to: Meee32

the parents raised 1.7 million dollars to treat their child.




posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 01:44 PM
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a reply to: Meee32

The question should be does the government have the right to kill innocent children.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

If it was my child I would let the child go, because as a parent that is my right to care for my child in the manner I think best .. just like these parents.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 01:53 PM
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originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
a reply to: audubon

The judicial branch is a branch of what? Is it the government?


No.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 01:59 PM
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a reply to: audubon

It's not?



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 02:02 PM
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originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
a reply to: audubon

The judicial branch is a branch of what? Is it the government? Hmmm. At any rate how ever you break it down no one has the right to over rule a parents wish. Doctor or judge. The parents have rights. As for the rest its not worthy of a response.



The judiciary reviewed the clinicians' decision to make sure it was correct in law.

Due process, we call it.

It doesn't matter whether its socialised medicine or private medicine, whether its a doctor or an actuary making the decision, risk is pooled and hard decisions are taken.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 11:30 PM
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a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese

I understand that. But if the parents wish is to use the money raised and come to the US for an experimental then they should.

I am here thanks to experimental medicine. I had stage 3 melanoma they had an experimental gene therapy and i am so thankful i had the opportunity to get healthy. These parents want that same chance and no one should be able to stop them.

This is a tough subject. He is suffering but the parents want to try to save him.



posted on Jul, 5 2017 @ 11:32 PM
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Think about the baby, allow it to move onto the other side.



posted on Jul, 6 2017 @ 05:34 AM
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originally posted by: AkontaDarkpaw


What's wrong with governments today??


It's because we call it a government. We should call it servicement.




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