It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Impeachment: a discussion of standard of proof and the meaning of “misdemeanors”

page: 1
5

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:19 AM
link   
I am not a lawyer, but I’ve been listening to commentary on T.V. on what’s involved in an impeachment proceeding and trial, so if there are any inaccuracies here, please feel free to chime in and point them out.

I have come to believe that the standard of proof for conviction in an impeachment trial in the Senate is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but it is whatever the Senate wants it to be.

So, if that is true, then there is no need for a lengthy, ironclad investigation in order to get on with the impeachment and trial.

If you want to convict on the basis of obstruction of justice, then all that you need do is to present to the Senate the President’s past own words 1.) to Lester Holt when he said that he had the Russia “thing” on his mind when sacking James Comey the Director of the F.B.I. and 2.) to the Russian ambassador when he said, right in the oval office, that the termination of Comey’s employment eased the pressure of the Russia “thing” off him.

Just that alone seems to be adequate for conviction, but if the Senate wants more, then all that they need do is to have Comey and Trump testify under oath at the impeachment trial and weigh the relative credibility of Comey versus the credibility of Trump while keeping the following in mind: did Comey ever get caught in 31 perjurious lies during just ONE deposition in the past? Did Donald Trump? Did Comey ever have 417 lies attributed to him during a 100 day period? Did the great Donald Trump during his first one hundred days in office?

Right there, admittedly, you do not have proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but you do have more than satisfactory proof under the legal theory that, in an impeachment trial, the standard of proof is whatever the Senate wants it to be.

Moving on...

Currently, the legal term, “misdemeanor,” means a crime that carries a penalty of a term of incarceration of less than one year. However, at the time of the framing of the U.S. Constitution, the word “misdemeanor” simply meant “bad behavior.”

Very, very recently, you had pretty much universal pooh-poohing of the Commander-in-Chief’s bad behavior aimed at a couple of morning cable T.V. hosts calling them “crazy” and “psycho” followed by a few other choice words. This, in and of itself, to me can justify an impeachment conviction under the broad, past meaning of “misdemeanor.”

But there is more. Supposedly and allegedly, three flying monkeys of the Commander-in-Chief called those T.V. hosts and subjected them to an extortionate threat.

Oh, you may say that nothing was alleged to be attributable to the President in that little episode, BUT...

The President attempted to turn the whole story around by what was most definitely a contradictory tweet stating that the T.V. hosts had contacted him.

So, now things go to the credibility of the T.V. hosts versus the credibility of the President. Did the T.V. hosts ever get caught in 31 lies during one deposition; did they ever have 417 lies in a 100 day period get attributed to them?

If the President fails in his credibility, the Senate can view the President’s tweet about the T.V. hosts’ having called him as a LIE intended to cover up the alleged extortion carried out by his flying monkeys. RULING: GROUNDS FOR AN IMPEACHMENT CONVICTION.

Now, to be complete: the President had issued a tweet which could most definitely be taken, “as is” at face value, as a threat against a law enforcement agent, witness intimidation and witness tampering, that tweet being the one wherein Trump said that Comey had better hope that there were no tapes of his conversations with the President. Because of the very loose standard of proof necessary for an impeachment conviction, the VERDICT IS GUILTY with no further investigative effort being necessary.

So... why hasn’t an impeachment action moved forward as of yet?

edit on 2-7-2017 by theworldisnotenough because: Corrected misspelling.




posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:21 AM
link   
Aside from the endless ranting allow me to inform you have how the court process works.

A. You have no rights no one does unless your rich.
B. The DA can only pursue cases they can afford to win, if they can't afford to beat you they won't even try.
C. Trump is rich as hell.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:23 AM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
Aside from the endless ranting allow me to inform you have how the court process works.

A. You have no rights no one does unless your rich.
B. The DA can only pursue cases they can afford to win, if they can't afford to beat you they won't even try.
C. Trump is rich as hell.


Impeachment is not a court process.

Your reply is out of place and inappropriate here. (But I am not contesting the otherwise validity of your post.)



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:28 AM
link   
a reply to: theworldisnotenough

It is a court process just not like the one you and I go through. The house and senate present a case and go through trial.

It even has a judge and everything!
edit on 2-7-2017 by toysforadults because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:33 AM
link   
If it is the way you say it is then it should be.

My guess is that your wrong and they know it to. That's why nothing is being done.

My second guess is that your watching to much media on this whole thing.

But what do I know. I'm a middle class janitor. Your welcome.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:33 AM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: theworldisnotenough

It is a court process just not like the one you and I go through. The house and senate present a case and go through trial.

It even has a judge and everything!


Call it a "court process" if you will.

It is still NOT a criminal proceeding.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:44 AM
link   
a reply to: ConscienceZombie

Well it also would take a literal smoking gun to convict ANY sitting president..

It will have an even higher burden of proof then "innocent until proven guilty"..

So even if they can't find (a very hard to find) smoking gun, that doesn't mean he didn't do it..

Look at oj...

The reason I buy the Russian connection stuff is that assuming you think you won't get caught, it is a very very good deal...

No antichrist or mustache twirling villains required..

Imho I don't think trump would make a deal with the Russians if it would cost one drop of American blood..

But sanctions on Russia and staying out of Ukraine if Russia invades?!?!?!

2 things you couldn't find 5 Americans that give one flying flip about...

So what cut throat buisness man doesn't take that deal??



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:51 AM
link   
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Russians didn't have to hack anything theDNC collapsed under its own weight



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 07:55 AM
link   
a reply to: theworldisnotenough




but I’ve been listening to commentary on T.V.


You really need to turn off the TV.
The MSM has been pushing their BS narrative for months now and they STILL have nothing. Anything and everything they can whine about, they've done it and keep having to correct and retract, because they've been called out on their lies. The story keeps changing, because they just make up something out of the blue and when they can't make it stick, put a small retraction at the end of of a story and go on to the next.
The Democrats are desperate and it shows.
edit on 2-7-2017 by DAVID64 because: clean up



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 08:00 AM
link   
Bad behavior: let's talk about casually and cavalierly disclosing highly sensitive, highly classified information to the Russians, right in the Oval Office, no less.

The President's defense (if you can even call it a defense) is that he has an absolute right and power to declassify anything that he wants to.

Really?

I don't think so.

First of all, the information was so sensitive that the provider of it, intelligence partner Israel, didn't even want that information spread around too much among people in our own government, and Israel specifically stated that the information should not be shared with Russia.

Now, Donald Trump, the real estate deal-maker without equal, should know about the significance of contractual obligations, and I'd say, in a very real sense, that there was a contractual obligation to Israel for The Donald to comply with the stipulations of Israel's providing of that top secret information to the U.S. Government DESPITE HIS POWER TO DECLASSIFY. What a kick in the jaw to Israel that was.

Moreover, passing on highly classified information to a declared adversary of the United States of the America is hardly keeping with the Oath of Office to defend and protect the Constitution which includes the Preamble and its "protect the general welfare clause," Consorting with the enemy is not protecting our general welfare.

Some may say that the Preamble does not confer a power on the government, but I'd say that it confers an obligation on the government.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 08:11 AM
link   
when it comes to impeachment, you don't just need grounds, you need a congress willing to do it..
at the moment, we have a republican president with a majority republican congress. you're gonna either need some heavy duty proof that there is good reasons to impeach, or a really lousy president that makes those republicans in congress believe that they are politically doomed if they let him stay in. no one wants to impeach him, what the heck if his campaign did collude and manage to get russia to aide them in being elected, all those congressmen would be patting him on the back becoming buddy buddy wanting to know how he did it!! but it's kind of hard not to when you have a president who is acting like he wants to be impeached with every twitter rant. those congressmen, the republican party aren't going to go up in flames with him is he manages to set himself on fire. his biggest danger his himself.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 09:10 AM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults

And none of that has anything to do with an impeachment trial.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 10:06 AM
link   
I don't want impeachment. I can wait for another election. We just have to live with it.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 10:58 AM
link   

originally posted by: MOMof3
I don't want impeachment. I can wait for another election. We just have to live with it.


Excuse me.

Have you not heard about one of the latest outrages out of the Trump administration?

One of the Trump flying monkeys has sent letters to all 50 states requesting detailed voter information including voting history of each voter over the last decade or so even though we are supposed to have private/secret voting privileges in this great nation.

The speculation regarding the motive for this move is VOTER INTIMIDATION to skew the next election(s) to you-should-know-whose advantage.

Moreover, there seems to be not much action on the part of the Trump administration to prevent any further Russian interference in our future elections with the worst-yet-to-come projected.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 11:23 AM
link   
a reply to: theworldisnotenough

Really bad behavior:

The Screwball-in-Chief, just a short while ago, posted a video tweet depicting himself perpetrating a violent act against a humanoid symbolically representing CNN.

Within one hour, a guest commentator on MSNBC stated that that video could be construed as inciting violence against journalists.

What is this?!? Something out of Putin's playbook?!?!

So much for the First Amendment and freedom of the press!



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 11:56 AM
link   
a reply to: theworldisnotenough

It is a joke..
Its from wrestlemania and i think succinct after how much BS cnn is being gven over obvious bad journalism..

Now if he were to hold a severed head up with a cnn logo on it then i would not see it as a joke..

You arent getting an impeachment. There is nothing of impeachable substance.

B



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 01:56 PM
link   
a reply to: Bspiracy

It's fun to watch them grasp at straws though. They need to wake the f*ck up and realise they are being played.
edit on 2-7-2017 by Wide-Eyes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 01:59 PM
link   
a reply to: Sillyolme

You're being played.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 02:18 PM
link   
a reply to: theworldisnotenough

I heard and contacted my governor and Raul Labrador in protest. Think it did me any good.

We should live with the consequences of our elections when protest fails.



posted on Jul, 2 2017 @ 02:45 PM
link   
a reply to: theworldisnotenough


So... why hasn’t an impeachment action moved forward as of yet?

Political calculation.

The members of the Democratic Caucus in the House are aware that Mike Pence would be the new POTUS. The GOP agenda would most likely end up accelerated without the Trump circus sometimes making statements contrary to that agenda. The bar is: What will likely cause greatest damage; incoherency or coherency of GOP agenda. The lowest bar would be: "Is this President going to blunder the U.S. into a war that the U.S. could actually lose."

Many GOP members of the House may think Trump is not only a buffoon, but a successful criminal buffoon who has cleverly escaped felony conviction so far. Their calculation would include the 38% approval rating of Trumps job performance as an indication of popularity. Can they afford losing that 38% and still get re-elected in 2018?

I happen to watch the (name redacted for journalist safety) show on MSM. There are many avenues to charge Trump with Emolument violations, including foreign patent streamlining, foreign brandings for buildings not mentioned in Financial Disclosure Statements, direct loans from Russian State owned non-licensed as a bank "bank" VEB to bail out Trump properties so as to avoid bankruptcy.

Trump's strategy of attacking MSM is obviously designed to make sure his faithful followers don't hear the mounting evidence against him. That way the 38% remains a viable leverage against GOP Congressional defection from "the greatest President ever in the history of Presidents" and many other hyperbolic categories.
edit on 2-7-2017 by pthena because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
5

log in

join