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Has the U.S. virtually wiped out all competition in the military fighter/bomber field?

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posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: one4all

They also might not do well against rainbow colored unicorns, but when we just pull crap from thin air it doesn't matter much.




posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: nwtrucker

I agree with most of that in the OP. The F-22 was developed in the 1990s and is still the only stealth fighter in service today, until the F-35. It's true fighters today cost a fortune to develop and take a decade or more, other countries don't have the cash.
Are you implying the F-15 is better than the Su-30 which is better than the Typhoon? It's the other way round. Typhoon with Meteor BVR missiles will eat anything except stealthy F-22s and F-35s, which it can see with IRST, if close enough.
The F-15 is good at BVR but WVR it is out turned and out dogfighted by just about everything, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, Su-27, Typhoon, Rafale.
The F-35 will probably be the last US manned fighter IMO, next will be stealthy hypersonic drones IMO.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:37 AM
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originally posted by: Bluntone22

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Bluntone22


There is a big difference between knowing something is there and actually shooting it down.

if you see it you can kill it.


Very true.
That's the whole point of stealth. You see them before they see you.
The longer you delay detection the better chance you have to win the battle.


The weapons bay only holds so many missiles. Once they are expended then what, run for home? Or furball it eye to eye...

One f22 and gun against remaining ten SU-XX, guess who's breaking and running first?



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:46 AM
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a reply to: intrptr


You do realize that when the f22 shoots its weapons the Su-xx's are taking evasive action for several minutes or they will be dying.
The f22 is already headed home and is way out of range to be attacked.

The Air Force is not sending 5 lone f22's against 30 soviet jets. They might send 5 but would have several f15's or whatever type to cover the returning birds.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: intrptr

So the F-22s only kills half the Su-30s before they head home to rearm.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: rickymouse


In some circumstances, I'd agree. Yet, if I buy American made tools, yes pricier, there is no qualitative match from China.

That seems to be the rule. I know people doing the same for Chinese companies as you cite from Taiwan. Rarely do I see an equal from Asian products....as a rule. The exceptions seem to prove that rule. That includes food products.

edit on 1-7-2017 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 10:56 AM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
Much vitriol on fast tracked 6th gen fighter development or upgraded 5.5 gen F-22s. From an overview it looks academic. In either scenario, or perhaps both, depending on the political decisions, no nation in the current 'competition' is able to match or even stay close.

The U.K. is likely 'all in' on the EF which was waxed by much improved pilots in SUs by India. The U.K. indirectly acknowledges this by purchasing F-35 thereby covering the technological gaps in the EF. Those same SU were soundly defeated by F-15s in Malaysia not two years back by NJ ANG at a 2-1 ratio.

The EF hasn't achieved the foreign sales that was needed financially, nor has the Rafale met export expectations. Russian falls further behind in fighter development and seems relegated to tech demonstrator platforms that go nowhere further.

Apparently, the U.K. has followed suit with Russia and concentrated on missiles systems. Far cheaper than aircraft, at a guess. On the surface of it, the U.S. has 'lagged' in missile development?? OR is the U.S. concentrating on directed energy development which could make the missile technology a thing of the past?

If the directed energy weapon systems run into delays, one could suppose the U.S. could purchase U.K. missiles systems for the short term, perhaps offering directed energy technology in exchange.

With massive sales to Saudi Arabia and now a major sale announced to Taiwan, not only does the MIC have humongous internal funding, it's sucking up a huge amount of international monies which drains development from the French, Brits and Russians.

The only competition down the road seems to be China. The U.K., France and the Russians on the surface of it, don't have the monies to take it to the next level.

This thought is more intuitive than anything else. Obviously there's those that have a better insight than me on this.

It looks reasonable on the surface of it. Thoughts?


Competition isnt an issue. I wouldnt be putting any emphasis on what we know about and can see...but all the top-secret stuff all sides have...and we know all sides have amazing and unthinkable stuff within their black budgets.

And it most likely is not anything flying in the sky. Realize there are black military budgets...and we'll never know WHAT they involve. We can only speculate...but bombers are the least of it...



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:16 AM
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originally posted by: JimTSpock
a reply to: nwtrucker

I agree with most of that in the OP. The F-22 was developed in the 1990s and is still the only stealth fighter in service today, until the F-35. It's true fighters today cost a fortune to develop and take a decade or more, other countries don't have the cash.
Are you implying the F-15 is better than the Su-30 which is better than the Typhoon? It's the other way round. Typhoon with Meteor BVR missiles will eat anything except stealthy F-22s and F-35s, which it can see with IRST, if close enough.
The F-15 is good at BVR but WVR it is out turned and out dogfighted by just about everything, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, Su-27, Typhoon, Rafale.
The F-35 will probably be the last US manned fighter IMO, next will be stealthy hypersonic drones IMO.


It 'may' be a pilot issue, but yes, the F-15s killed the SUs in Malaysia at a 2-1 ratio. The Indian SUs were smoked in 2004 at Mountain Home AFB before Red Flag. That was likely due to both pilot's skill, it was senior pilots flying the F-15s and at that stage the Indian drivers weren't that experienced with their SUs- much improved pilots by the time they smoked the EFs. That officer that gave the lecture placed the SUs slightly better than the F-15s and the F-22s way better.

I know we're back to the missile argument. Platform vs platform, sans missile or HMCS add ons, the a TV'd SU is possibly a superior platform to the EF. Perhaps the Raffy as well. I don't really know the answer to that, for sure. British missiles vs Russian missile? I sure don't know.

I could be tactics as well. One avoids the opposition's strengths and uses it weaker aspect.

I'm not knocking the EF, per say.I do believe there's far more room to upgrade the F-22 and the F-35 than the EF. The main point being be it immediate 6th gen development or an upgraded F-22 into a 5.5 gen-and the F-22 is physically superior in almost every measurement to the EF as it stands right now- the EF seems a last gasp effort to stay in the cutting edge market as is the Raffy and sales are increasing for the F-35 with the latter two lagging.

The U.S. seems financially and politically far more willing to keep the development going and I don't seem the means or will for anyone else to match it....other than the Chinese.

Hence, the theory/speculation that the U.S. with strong Administration support, is going to leave most behind.

Is that a wrong conclusion? Might be. I DO have, at least, an idea of how much I don't know...

edit on 1-7-2017 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:17 AM
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a reply to: nwtrucker

"Apparently, the U.K. has followed suit with Russia and concentrated on missiles systems. Far cheaper than aircraft, at a guess. On the surface of it, the U.S. has 'lagged' in missile development?? OR is the U.S. concentrating on directed energy development which could make the missile technology a thing of the past?"

"If the directed energy weapon systems run into delays, one could suppose the U.S. could purchase U.K. missiles systems for the short term, perhaps offering directed energy technology in exchange."


Consider, that the triangle "truck" that I've suggested before would be the perfect carrier for your lasers and larger missiles. Such weapons, defensive and offensive capable, would be bulky system that requires a lot of room and lifting, a perfect match for a triangle craft that virtually doesn't weight a thing.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:19 AM
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originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: rickymouse
No, the US is just a little ahead in some technology at this time. Not that much that it would make a great difference. We might have some top secret stuff that is way advanced, but then so again does Russia.


Perhaps Russia does. All I see is Russian hype. Their revenues seem hinged on the SUs and the PAK-FA draining it as fast as it comes in.

Actual development takes money, boat loads of it. As does further development and advance technologies. I have to think that the lack of the income gives the U.S. a dominant position, again and still.

Seems everyone is a full generation behind in both engines and avionics, as well as directed energy weapons. That doesn't seem 'a little ahead'. I could be wrong on it, though.


You take Chinese engineers and companies that build weaponry. Because of the way their economy works, they can build these things way cheaper than we can. They do not have big corporations with their high salaried top big wiggs drawing off so much money. Even figuring the difference in money value, they can produce stuff at a fraction of the cost overall. Same with Russia, if they had our budget, they would accomplish way more than we do because of excessive profit taking here.


Yup thats the key right there.

Corruption in the US MIC is slowing the USA military down and eating away at it from the inside.

And the poor money you pour into the MIC the worse it gets.

China has not caught up with the USA yet but give 20 years? Maybe.


Just look at the Royal Navy and our Type 45 destroyers. Our Destroyers far surpass the USA at the moment while the USA has been dicking around and wasting billions on Zumwalt-class destroyer thats been a complete failure.
UK hasnt got the money to waste so we built a solid destroyer. USA turned there destroyer into a MIC vanity fest.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: intrptr

So the F-22s only kills half the Su-30s before they head home to rearm.


Wash, rinse, repeat until no more SUs are left...



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:30 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok


I'd be curious from what would happen if your Type 45 went against the 'complete failure' that is the Zumwalt.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: nwtrucker

Exactly my point. So their argument the F-22 can only kill some before needing to rearm needs to be rethought.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:34 AM
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a reply to: nwtrucker

A lot of Japanese motorcycles are manufactured in China, at least most of the parts anyway. They can add a few parts in Japan, like logos and some trim and call them Japanese bikes. The Japanese company oversees the production in China.

The tools I was a distributor for would come with all the pieces and needed a tag put on and maybe some fittings installed then they could be considered made in America. That taiwan company sold a lot of tools to major companies that boast made in America. The Made in America stuff is a scam sometimes. I saw these tools, made exactly the same way sold under some of the most prestigious names in air tools. Of course, the tools were well made, that is why I actually was interested in selling them. They were more expensive than the cheap imports but way cheaper than the same tool bearing a Cornwell or snap-on or Chicago pneumatic, and other major brand name tag. The company has changed styles in the last thirteen years but it still makes quality air tools. www.mastertoolsupply.com... They custom make airtools for big companies, at least I think they still do. The prices of those tools are high now, but I got a whole lot of tools for three hundred bucks and my brother bought about a hundred bucks worth too. Saved about seventy five percent buying them direct as a distributor. I also bought some for friends in the auto repair industry. I never made anything, but we all got quality tools at a very reasonable price. I could have sold high priced tools at the cost of cheap junk and still made some money. But the drugs used to treat my epilepsy messed with my ability to run a business anymore. It doesn't pay to sell them anymore, most of the prices went up so as not to compete with the big companies buying quantity of them like the ones I mentioned.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:37 AM
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originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: rickymouse
No, the US is just a little ahead in some technology at this time. Not that much that it would make a great difference. We might have some top secret stuff that is way advanced, but then so again does Russia.


Perhaps Russia does. All I see is Russian hype. Their revenues seem hinged on the SUs and the PAK-FA draining it as fast as it comes in.

Actual development takes money, boat loads of it. As does further development and advance technologies. I have to think that the lack of the income gives the U.S. a dominant position, again and still.

Seems everyone is a full generation behind in both engines and avionics, as well as directed energy weapons. That doesn't seem 'a little ahead'. I could be wrong on it, though.


You take Chinese engineers and companies that build weaponry. Because of the way their economy works, they can build these things way cheaper than we can. They do not have big corporations with their high salaried top big wiggs drawing off so much money. Even figuring the difference in money value, they can produce stuff at a fraction of the cost overall. Same with Russia, if they had our budget, they would accomplish way more than we do because of excessive profit taking here.


Yup thats the key right there.

Corruption in the US MIC is slowing the USA military down and eating away at it from the inside.

And the poor money you pour into the MIC the worse it gets.

China has not caught up with the USA yet but give 20 years? Maybe.


Just look at the Royal Navy and our Type 45 destroyers. Our Destroyers far surpass the USA at the moment while the USA has been dicking around and wasting billions on Zumwalt-class destroyer thats been a complete failure.
UK hasnt got the money to waste so we built a solid destroyer. USA turned there destroyer into a MIC vanity fest.


Those type 45 destroyers are impressive. I bet they won't get run over by a cargo ship either.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:37 AM
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a reply to: mysterioustranger


I'm a bit on the pragmatic side when it comes to the black budgets and 'we all know' stuff that we don't know.

So omitting that, it's down to money, political will, and current and soon to be current technology and systems. If we get blind-sided by something new, then sobeit. It looks like, at least in the air, that the U.S. is poised to, potentially, smother the competition.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: crazyewok


I'd be curious from what would happen if your Type 45 went against the 'complete failure' that is the Zumwalt.






Nothing because it would not even get to the fight before breaking down!
And yes it was a failure because they cancelled the entire project. After wasting billions and making two prototype ships that are at the moement next to useless.


It would be more revelent to ask what would happen between a Arliegh Burk and a Type 45.

Also our subs run rings round yours at the moment too.

In fact your navy I beleive is going to nick a few bits of tec from us for the next genration of your ships.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:43 AM
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originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: rickymouse
No, the US is just a little ahead in some technology at this time. Not that much that it would make a great difference. We might have some top secret stuff that is way advanced, but then so again does Russia.


Perhaps Russia does. All I see is Russian hype. Their revenues seem hinged on the SUs and the PAK-FA draining it as fast as it comes in.

Actual development takes money, boat loads of it. As does further development and advance technologies. I have to think that the lack of the income gives the U.S. a dominant position, again and still.

Seems everyone is a full generation behind in both engines and avionics, as well as directed energy weapons. That doesn't seem 'a little ahead'. I could be wrong on it, though.


You take Chinese engineers and companies that build weaponry. Because of the way their economy works, they can build these things way cheaper than we can. They do not have big corporations with their high salaried top big wiggs drawing off so much money. Even figuring the difference in money value, they can produce stuff at a fraction of the cost overall. Same with Russia, if they had our budget, they would accomplish way more than we do because of excessive profit taking here.


Yup thats the key right there.

Corruption in the US MIC is slowing the USA military down and eating away at it from the inside.

And the poor money you pour into the MIC the worse it gets.

China has not caught up with the USA yet but give 20 years? Maybe.


Just look at the Royal Navy and our Type 45 destroyers. Our Destroyers far surpass the USA at the moment while the USA has been dicking around and wasting billions on Zumwalt-class destroyer thats been a complete failure.
UK hasnt got the money to waste so we built a solid destroyer. USA turned there destroyer into a MIC vanity fest.


Those type 45 destroyers are impressive. I bet they won't get run over by a cargo ship either.


Its a shame we only built 6 of them rather than the original 12 that was planned.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:50 AM
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originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: rickymouse
No, the US is just a little ahead in some technology at this time. Not that much that it would make a great difference. We might have some top secret stuff that is way advanced, but then so again does Russia.


Perhaps Russia does. All I see is Russian hype. Their revenues seem hinged on the SUs and the PAK-FA draining it as fast as it comes in.

Actual development takes money, boat loads of it. As does further development and advance technologies. I have to think that the lack of the income gives the U.S. a dominant position, again and still.

Seems everyone is a full generation behind in both engines and avionics, as well as directed energy weapons. That doesn't seem 'a little ahead'. I could be wrong on it, though.


You take Chinese engineers and companies that build weaponry. Because of the way their economy works, they can build these things way cheaper than we can. They do not have big corporations with their high salaried top big wiggs drawing off so much money. Even figuring the difference in money value, they can produce stuff at a fraction of the cost overall. Same with Russia, if they had our budget, they would accomplish way more than we do because of excessive profit taking here.


Yup thats the key right there.

Corruption in the US MIC is slowing the USA military down and eating away at it from the inside.

And the poor money you pour into the MIC the worse it gets.

China has not caught up with the USA yet but give 20 years? Maybe.


Just look at the Royal Navy and our Type 45 destroyers. Our Destroyers far surpass the USA at the moment while the USA has been dicking around and wasting billions on Zumwalt-class destroyer thats been a complete failure.
UK hasnt got the money to waste so we built a solid destroyer. USA turned there destroyer into a MIC vanity fest.


Those type 45 destroyers are impressive. I bet they won't get run over by a cargo ship either.



I don't think that collision was the ships fault, but I can guarantee that a few officers don't have a future in the navy.



posted on Jul, 1 2017 @ 11:51 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nwtrucker


Much vitriol on fast tracked 6th gen fighter development or upgraded 5.5 gen F-22s. From an overview it looks academic. In either scenario, or perhaps both, depending on the political decisions, no nation in the current 'competition' is able to match or even stay close.



'Wundewaffe' was the answer in its day, too. Ultimately it failed, because back then too,


Yup the USA is falling into the same trap as Germany did.

Take tanks. in 1942 there designs where some of the "best" in the world. Problem was they where high maintience, Expensive and slow to make. worse they only worked to maximum effect in idea conditions and war does not lend itself to ideal conditions. Sure tigers had up to 1:25 kill ratios but that meant nothing when most of them broke down and had to be destroyed by there own crews while the Russians simple yet soildly designed T-34 just rolled on.




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