A thought experiment...

Imagine if you will a place and time where people of all different sexes, ideologies, political views, backgrounds, ethnicities, educations work together toward a common goal to get things done for the betterment of the entity they represent. Oh wait - that does happen - every day - at just about every company, organization, and non-profit in the world. Why is it that the one place that we *really* *really* need people to work together, draw a line down the middle and adhere to highly partisan viewpoints over trying to figure out what's best for the entity that they represent - the people of the united states. It's so obvious and so gd frustrating that our government is broken.

This isn't an anti-Trump message - it's an anti-partisan one. I'm frankly sick of the robots that *work for us* and make decisions because it's what their party wants, rather than what the people need. There's a healthcare bill floating out there in the ether that has some right-leaning ideas and some left-leaning - and it would end up working wonderfully for the people. But no - the agenda is to completely drop what's in place, and replace it with something that fits an agenda. All so that they can say they win. What do we need to happen to get the people that work for us to think rationally - to look out for all of us and do the right thing, and not the *right* or *left* thing? I don't know the answer. The idea of "draining the swamp" sounds better every day, but what we seem to be refilling it with doesn't appear to be much better. The USA is in crisis. What are we going to do about it?

a reply to: redtic

This is about the 4th thread this week on the same subject. I don't know what the solution is - the occupy movement fizzled.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: redtic

Right wing complains about big government and to much spending while they back the unsuccessful drug war and unsuccessful wars.

Left wing claims to back diversity and minorities while they back globalization, capatalist gain over the world and the losing of cultures.

People on both sides just follow a team for the sake of identifying with one another.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Yeah, I just came back to ATS, so haven't seen them. Just felt a sudden sense of frustration and had a few beers in me, so wanted to post.

I have a good solution. I believe the party ideology should be abolished. I think all political donations should go into one big pot and everybody draws equally. I believe that all candidates should be able to participate in debates. I believe there should be presentations on each candidate with no bias done by the media.

I believe all candidates should be drug tested and pass a psychological exam.

I would like to see them all in a glass encased zoo display for approximately a month so we can observe them in their native habitat. In fact, put them all on a nature preserve and........oh wait, we're talking about POLITICIANS. Sorry, I spaced out and spiralled off into nonsense.

There's no fixing this short of removing every single one and starting from scratch, which won't happen. Anything people touch that has money and power attached to it is naturally doomed, it is the nature of the beast. Even the loftiest ideals fall into the gutter when money and other vices are part of the perks.

a reply to: FissionSurplus

Yeah, I get it - we're entrenched in a system that would take decades if not centuries to get out of. A no-party system would be wonderful in theory, but I honestly have no idea what that would look like or how it would manifest. As much as I despise Trump and his cronies, I do think it was the right idea with the wrong person. We need a sea change in american politics and I think that does need to start from the top. But alas, the reality is that things will plod on with the status quo - maybe our doom lies in our complacency. Maybe there's no revolution in us because we just don't care enough.... When's that new Avengers movie coming out anyway?...

a reply to: redtic

You're working under the assumption that the goals are the same, it's just the method to achieve them is different.

The goals are different, in my opinion.

So there will never be a "come together moment".

There will be a war.

There will be a winner and a loser.

Nuke media.

It's the only way to be sure...

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: redtic

You're working under the assumption that the goals are the same, it's just the method to achieve them is different.

The goals are different, in my opinion.

So there will never be a "come together moment".

There will be a war.

There will be a winner and a loser.

Damn, that's bleak.

a reply to: redtic

I would be over the moon ecstatic if you'd prove me wrong.

a reply to: redtic

I love John Lennons tune..

But... the utopia he envisioned in that effort failed to include a dose of REALITY..

Check out Venezuela for the latest attempt...

Tribalism is so much easier.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: redtic

You're working under the assumption that the goals are the same, it's just the method to achieve them is different.

The goals are different, in my opinion.

So there will never be a "come together moment".

There will be a war.

There will be a winner and a loser.

There already is a war. However, just like the American revolutionaries with their uncoventional battle tactics that confused the red coats, our war is one of a psycholoical/sociological/cultural nature fought with words and ideas.

There will always be violence, but i wouldnt count on a total all out violent civil war. Expect instead mass protests and sudden awareness of key concepts by the masses.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: redtic

I would be over the moon ecstatic if you'd prove me wrong.

Do you really think that it will come down to a civil war?

With all due respect, both ideologies have been extremely perverted.

Most that represent both sides have lost sight of what they are supposedly fighting for.

Everyone (partisan) is completely distracted from the actual battles. They are stuck defending silly battles while significant changes get slipped through.

I don't think the sheep will revolt. They will stay in the silly arguments.

& all:
Great conversation with a lot food for thought. The potential in this situation is definitely big,
A lot of "pumped" individuals. Looking for a better system, is the discussion we should have.
Obviously we can't "export" our style of living, be it US-Europe, the garbage per head output would be crazy high
& garbage is already a big "real" problem.
In some places it's a resource.
Recycling is something we have to work on, so badly.
But it's easier and better to just kill off the future problems.
There are a ton of seriously close to nazism people in power.
"Germans are everywhere" I often say and it's true.
I hate to tell you, we basically invented the tactic of "infiltrating places of power",
plus have a very ...hierarchic mindset, the direct superior at work we call "Meister" (have fun googling that)
and there are some very global lodges and masters and some very nationalistic, some like mafia, others more economic, but in the end they all serve the same Grandmaster.

A story.

I often wonder why America is so attached to relying upon a two party system.

I was so used to it growing up, it didn't dawn on me that things could be any other way, until I moved out of the US and witnessed nations with many parties instead.

What is the interest in having two extremes that clash and oppose?
I guess the theory is that they can balance and check each other, and we end up with decisions that fall in the middle, in moderation and balance. But there has to be mutual respect between them and their roles in seeking this outcome.

Why is there so little value based upon the notion of "other" as valuable precisely because different than "I" ?

I am often in a position to ponder the traditional American values, because I work in an American company in France. The company ethics are typically American (as I perceive them to be) - honesty, integrity, respect for the individual, and seeking win-win solutions.

I'm always kinda of wondering how they expect to integrate those values into people of other cultures for whom they do not at all reflect their education and systems. That's sorta besides the subject here- I just explain how it is that I end up thinking about this subject so much!

But watching politics today in the US, I then wonder what happened to the old notion of win-win, or seeking solutions of mutual benefit? I don't see it in current attitudes or politics in the US. I don't see it in business either. I see hostility and intent to crush the other in order to win, at any cost, by any method necessary.

I find it disheartening, discouraging.

a reply to: redtic

The idea of "draining the swamp" sounds better every day, but what we seem to be refilling it with doesn't appear to be much better.

I've come to suspect that there are two or more groups influencing sections of the public via social media. There's an incentive to incite higher levels of division and intolerance between populations. It promises to overturn the status quo, which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it isn't clear what the alternative could be.

The 'right' and 'left' thing is a natural outcome of civilised society, but the extremes we see on ATS and elsewhere are atypical and don't exist in the lives of most of us. Thank God these extremists dwell online and aren't a reflection of the majority of people in the West. One obvious downside is how our political parties are always batting for the team and no better than the partisan extremists and hysterics we see on social media. All of them, in my opinion, poison the pool of democracy and create the 'swamp' that all sides agree exists.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: redtic

The idea of "draining the swamp" sounds better every day, but what we seem to be refilling it with doesn't appear to be much better.

I've come to suspect that there are two or more groups influencing sections of the public via social media. There's an incentive to incite higher levels of division and intolerance between populations. It promises to overturn the status quo, which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it isn't clear what the alternative could be.

The 'right' and 'left' thing is a natural outcome of civilised society, but the extremes we see on ATS and elsewhere are atypical and don't exist in the lives of most of us. Thank God these extremists dwell online and aren't a reflection of the majority of people in the West. One obvious downside is how our political parties are always batting for the team and no better than the partisan extremists and hysterics we see on social media. All of them, in my opinion, poison the pool of democracy and create the 'swamp' that all sides agree exists.

QFT nailed it.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: redtic

You're working under the assumption that the goals are the same, it's just the method to achieve them is different.

The goals are different, in my opinion.

So there will never be a "come together moment".

There will be a war.

There will be a winner and a loser.

It only seems lile that if you are on one of the sides. If you step outside of your party and listen to the pther party, you will find that 1). Both parties have legitimate concerns. 2). Both parties are made up of voters that want better lives for their children. 3). Neither set of politicians will ever let that happen, because they are all just selling snake oil. 4). The underlying causes of the problems are far more complex than the oversimplified "solutions" presented to us.

It's called "divide and conquer" and it's working. I promise you the gun toting republican and his liberal PETA neighbor have far more in common with each other than either has with any member of Congress.

a reply to: redtic

No harm - I feel the same level of frustration at times but try to stay upbeat....not an easy task