It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Vatican: Bible Confirms Jesus Was Not Crucified

page: 3
13
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:11 AM
link   
Well, this may confirm what I believe went on. I figured since they did not know what Jesus looked like, someone pointed out Jesus that day, If I was a disciple of Jesus, I would go in his place. Judus feeling bad and killing himself was kind of something I thought, could Judus be the one who actually died on the cross, was he actually a hero for taking Jesus's place so Jesus could go on helping others?

I kind of blew that off though, why would they trash Judus so badly in the bible if he was a hero. But actually, Judas is not really bashed that much, the bashing came from future people who decided they hated Judus, not something Jesus would have approved of.

That whole writing sounded fishy in the bible, when they stated that the guards did not know what jesus looked like, I figured someone took his place. Jesus supposedly moved up north in the Mediteranian area with another name and kept spreading the word of god.

The words of Jesus written in the bible are words of wisdom and love, following those words is not a waste of time. If everyone in the world followed the path of the new testement, it would be a great world. Of course we would still have to kill murderers if they could not be reformed, Jesus did not expect that the really greedy and bad people would all reform to be as god wanted them to be. Notice that the god Jesus talks about seems to be a lot better than the one in the old testement. That god from the old testement promoted killing and violence.




posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:40 AM
link   
a reply to: rickymouse

Problem with your final thoughts about the difference between the Old Testament God and Jesus being different, not entirely
Jesus will return and destroy evil, just like God/He did in the Old Testament

Jesus never expected everyone to follow Him, hence why He addressed His message to His followers. Hence why He never wanted christianity to be part of the civil law.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:43 AM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
nvm not worth the fight. better things to do.


Finally some logic from you ks, have a star 😇



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:01 AM
link   

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: onehuman

The Apocalypse of St John predicted this 2000 years ago - that men would deny that Jesus was crucified for the sins of man.

and now here we are, 2000 years later - denying he was crucified (The Koran, among other historical texts, also refutes he died on the cross).

If I was a bookie, these would be very very slim odds.

VERY.


why are these odds slim? if anything, they are almost inevitable. as time passes, memory fades, evidence erodes, accounts dilute and obfuscate, and history gradually loses what was already a relatively tenuous hold on an event that should have been recorded in spades by as many hands as were capable of putting it down in solid writing. instead, the most helpful documents have perished or disappeared and what little remain are oddly phrased and poorly investigated. a man was killed and his death accompanied by strange phenomena in society, weather, and astronomy. one could assume that there is a correlation or even causality, but verifying it would require us to find a demigod and kill him/her/it. he wasnt making prophecy, he was pointing out the obvious. people are going to have a really hard time believing this a couple thousand years from now...yeah, no crap. that tends to happen when modern devices of investigative journalism make bronze age sheepherders look like neanderthals drawing on cave walls. having perused such documentation myself, i can only conclude that if there was a demigod who was persecuted and killed by the romans, he wasnt much of a demigod and something of a clumsy guru. you arent very good at your job if your job gets you killed. suicide by cops makes me think that something went horribly wrong with his demigod quest that made him decide death was better than trying to finish the job.
edit on 27-6-2017 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:07 AM
link   

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: rickymouse

Problem with your final thoughts about the difference between the Old Testament God and Jesus being different, not entirely
Jesus will return and destroy evil, just like God/He did in the Old Testament

Jesus never expected everyone to follow Him, hence why He addressed His message to His followers. Hence why He never wanted christianity to be part of the civil law.


Yup, you are right. But in the case of Jesus coming back, Jesus will not be the one returning, the spirit within him that he gained in the desert was part of the bigger picture. He initiated a link between himself and god through this link. A link with the collective consciousness. He is now a part of that collective consciousness. I do not know where the name Jesus even came from, that was not the name of Jesus.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:14 AM
link   
a reply to: Raggedyman




I thought we just established that in our discussion Did you not read what we wrote, miss the whole lot altogether


are you forgetting what you initially posted to get the 2 replies you did?


here let me remind you




What makes it so questionable is that the original letters and gospels were written and told directly after the death of Christ


when the first poster points it out

you act like you never said the above or simply forget that you said written along with told directly after his death.

your reply when questioned is below




Socrates said that the printing press and writing would make humanity dumb because they wouldn't have to remember history anymore Your point is reasonably valid but in the ancient and near meddle east, oral history was in fact the way history was passed on It's simple to say things were very different back before main stream media and tv and the Internet, it's true



WTF

It boggles my mind at how some posters respond to posts from time to time.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:23 AM
link   
a reply to: Raggedyman




Well isn't that funny, I noted I saw no reasoning in your comments and you did mine



No you responded like I do with emotion to posts that really pull your strings.





you said something absurd What you think of Jesus is irrelevant, I made that clear.



But the poster didn't mention what they think about Jesus.

Again, just reading and responding to what you think is being said and what you think is being said really means when anyone can read the correspondence and scratch their heads at some of your responses that make it seem like a conversation is being had with a brick wall.




Do you know common sense, do you think before speaking I am not being rude, just pointing out your endless silly comments, logic and lack of reasoning



and I am actually quoting and showing how its you that is lacking logic.

responding to things not said, acting like you never said certain things.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:25 AM
link   
a reply to: InhaleExhale

Thanks for pointing out why I stopped talking to him. I was already getting a headache from the first few posts he addressed to me and I knew it wasn't going to improve if I continued.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:32 AM
link   

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: LABTECH767

May God bless and love those who don't know who He and His son and Spirit are
Jesus taught His "followers" no anger, no judgement

Remember you will be judged by God with the same measure you judge others


Jesus taught us not to be hypocrites in judgement... but we are not to partake in the follies of sin with others.

You have to have some judgement to be able to disassociate with those in serious sin.

If someone invites you to a party where there will be drunkeness, nudity and sexual perversity does a Christian say " oh.. I better not judge them and attend that party ? No.. a wise Christian will judge the action and refuse to be a part of it, because it would displease Christ.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:34 AM
link   
a reply to: onehuman

I read the Gospel of Barnabas over 20 years ago. It also predicts the advent of the Prophet Muhammad.

What may the case here, the point of the matter, is that this may be a copy of the original one or a very old one.





edit on 27-6-2017 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:37 AM
link   

originally posted by: Sheye
If someone invites you to a party where there will be drunkeness, nudity and sexual perversity does a Christian say " oh.. I better not judge them and attend that party ? No.. a wise Christian will judge the action and refuse to be a part of it, because it would displease Christ.

Why? Everyone is nude when they are born. It's part of being alive and part of nature. Clothes are what's actually the abnormal thing. What's so wrong about nudity?

And Jesus drank whine. Hell that wedding he produced all that food for was so they could have a party. This prudishness you are alluding to is really just self-inflicted dogma you guys created and has nothing to do with being a good Christian or not.
edit on 27-6-2017 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:39 AM
link   
a reply to: VegHead

Really?

The existence of Jesus of Nazareth is not confirmed by any writings at the time of his supposed life. So how is the crucifixion of a character who isn't really a historical figure "one of the most verified events in history?" Can you show any validation of this claim, perhaps a writing from someone who was there? A snippet in the Roman diary of the day? A royal decree from Herod?

I'm almost entirely convinced that "Jesus" is merely a creation of Rome in an attempt to calm and subdue the Jews.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 11:47 AM
link   
The very strange thing about the history of Jesus is this:

The ancient historian Josephus talked a lot about John the Baptist, but literally NOTHING about Jesus!

That has always baffled me.

Many claim he didn’t exist, though I don’t believe that.

What I believe is that there are still great mysteries revolving around Jesus the world has yet to know.

Mary The Magdalene is the key to this great secret, I believe.

On that subject there is a Gospel of Mary somewhere which btw also is very different from doctrinal (from 320 ad, Council of Nicaea or Pauline) Christianity



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 12:26 PM
link   

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Because nobody cares about a book that stands on its own, historically it has no value to anyone but Muslims and Gnostics.


The thing is, that book, The Gospel of Barnabas, makes a lot of sense from a "human" point of view. A Muslim friend of mine brought me this book decades ago, and we had a great debate about it. From a human perspective, it makes sense that God would not punish Jesus, who did nothing wrong, by allowing men to nail him to the cross and suffer that injustice, when all Jesus did was come and preach love and forgiveness. On the other hand, Barnabas says it was really Judas that was nailed to the cross, the same Judas that betrayed Jesus. And that perfectly explains the cry out "My Lord, My Lord, why have you forsaken me!" [e.g.:Matthew 27:46], because Jesus was the Lord, and it makes sense that Judas would be asking Jesus why he forsook him, and confused the Roman soldiers when they came to arrest Jesus, making them think that Judas was the Christ, when Jesus knew that Judas had to betray him. God would indeed punish Judas for his misdeeds, rather than Jesus, because Judas was wicked and took some coin as his reward to betray the trust of a friend and brother.

Our natural idea of God, is that he blesses the good and punishes the wicked. That's why we should try to do good, and avoid wicked. It's a logical order that makes sense to men.

But, here Jesus comes and does everything right, and still gets punished. He still has to suffer injustice. Where is the righteousness?

If we get punished, whether we do right or wrong, then what's the point. What value is that religion to us?

This is, of course, thinking like men, with human values and concerns. This is why Muslims cannot accept Jesus being nailed to the cross. God does not punish you if you do right. This guarantee is written in the scriptures of the "old testament"



Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: -- KJV, Ecclesiastes 8:5


So, Jesus dying on the cross is "inconsistent" with the God of the "old testament," who guarantees that you will be protected by Him, if you continue to "obey" his law.

The Muslim claim, then, is that the Christians "distorted" the old laws, and Islam was required to "restore" truth to the scriptures, and that's why the Prophet Mohammad had to come, to "fix" the problems introduced by the Christian distortions.

But, when we look deeper into the whole message of Jesus, we see something else there. It's about the "spirit", not about the "flesh." The God that Jesus brought information about, was not particularly concerned with the things of the flesh, but about the spirit. And Jesus did indeed bring a different message about the idea of "punishment." So, while people thought that suffering in the flesh was all about wickedness and punishment for sin, here is what Jesus says,



And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? -- KJV, John 9:2

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. -- KJV, John 9:3


In other words, Jesus broke the old connection between sin and suffering. God wills it. You don't have to do anything wrong to be born blind, or suffer any pains of the "flesh."

God needed a miracle, to make people take note of Jesus' message, so HE made a man blind, so that Jesus could perform the healing, and people would "wonder" about what they had just seen, and "pay attention" to the message.

Jesus dying on the cross, satisfies the Jews, who continue to believe that Jesus violated the laws, by doing work on the Sabbath, disrupting their temple, saying astonishing things etc..so in their eyes God was Justified in punishing this man for making false claims about being the son of God and doing sorcery greater than Solomon, working on the holy day etc..everyone gets to see what they want to see, their God did punish only the wicked, so the Jews didn't need Islam to tell them that, the Gospel of Barnabas would make sense to both Jews and Muslims, because it's consistent with the "old laws" as they are "understood by men." An eye for an eye, punish the wicked, bless the good.

But, Jesus message is that man cannot "fix" the problems he has by himself, only God can fix these things. Man punishing another man for misdeeds, fixes nothing. God punishing man for misdeeds, fixes nothing. Man cannot "save himself" by doing good things, and avoiding evil. God wills it. This point upset the Jews so much, some wanted to "stone Jesus".



My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: -- KJV, John 10:27
..
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. -- KJV, John 10:31


Jesus was basically saying, God has determined who will understand and who will not, He wills it, some will follow me, because God wills it, some will not, because God wills it to be so.

This, of course, makes no sense to the Jews, because it means things are "pre-determined", and man has no free will. Men have to be "taught" what is right and what is wrong, and "punished" to get him to behave correctly.

But, in their own scriptures, if the Jews would read their own books, the old testament does say, that the time will come when there will be no more "teaching";



But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:33

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:34


So, now we can see what Jesus represents. The coming of the time when the "law" would be "built-in" to the design of man, and that's why some people could understand the message of Jesus, immediately when they heard it, because it "resonated" with what was "built-in" to their design, by "their maker", enabling them to comprehend the message, while the others, who had not yet been modified by God, could not understand the words coming out of Jesus' mouth. The same promise that the time would come when God will "forgive all sin," is already there in the old testament. Jesus' arrival marked the beginning of the "transformation" from sin to sinless. The only question is, how long does this process take? It's been 2000 years already, and still sinners walk the earth. Well, the new testament has the following claim;



And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. -- KJV, Matthew 26:61

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years -- KJV, 2 Peter|3:8


So, in 3000 years from the Birth of Christ, we'd expect to see all men on earth able to understand the words of Jesus, without "teaching."



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 12:28 PM
link   
The Grave of Jesus in Srinagar Kashmir

The Bible is written so Christian/Catholic worship is venrated as the only true faith, the most righteous path.



  “The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ” by NicolasNotovitch describes his finding a document on Issa at the Hemis Buddhist Monastery, which took place in 1886. He describes how he was there for several weeks after breaking his leg from a fall from his horse. After becoming acquainted with the monks, one showed him the document on the life of Issa, the name used in India for Jesus. He had the text translated, first into Russian, and then published his book in France in 1894. Though critics such as Max Muller and others attackedNotovitch to debunk his claims, Notovitch in turn said he talked in private to a Catholic priest at the Vatican who told him that the Vatican library had 63 documents of various oriental languages that referred to Jesus traveling in India. These had been brought to the Vatican by missionaries from India, China and Arabia.

Seperated and superior from the tribal, animistic and pagan ancient wisdoms that predate Christianity? Jesus would not have traveled in his youth to learn from these lesser faiths? As the son of god, not a mere mortal prophet Jesus would harness all knowledge. No need to learn?


Unfortunately, as is so often the case, the document at the Hemis Monastery seems to have since disappeared with present day monks knowing nothing about such a document. Some feel that certain Christian missionaries or agents had gone there to deliberately confiscate it to prevent any such evidence from being available any longer.

The Church shirley would not cover up the truth?


The story of Jesus’ crucifixion is also interesting because, generally, most people die on the cross by starvation or suffocation when the ribs press down on the lungs so that the person can no longer breathe. This often takes several days. According to tradition, Jesus was nailed on the cross in the early afternoon of a Friday and taken down as dusk was approaching, after being nailed on the cross for only four or five hours. So it is most unusual that a young and healthy person like Jesus died after only four hours on the cross. Thus, it is more likely that as a yogi he was able to enter an altered state and appear as if dead, only to be revived later. This is not uncommon with some yogis in India. Furthermore, there are modern commemorations of Jesus’ crucifixion wherein people are crucified every year in the Philippines and Mexico and survive quite easily. A person does not die of crucifixion after only four hours. Thus, it is quite likely that he survived the crucifixion and died elsewhere. 

Many legends and stories survive of a man arround Jesus time, living, traveling and ministering in his twilight years in villages of Nepal.
Jesus Tomb Rozabal Nepal

The only record of Jesus death or resurrection is the infallible Bible! If tribal stories and temple records from other heathen faiths held no truth, they would not need to disappear? The Bible should be unedited, without chapters removed? Jesus would be tossing in his grave where ever it is located at the state of his christian fellowship.
edit on 27-6-2017 by aliensanonymous because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 12:35 PM
link   
Why don't we start with the man that supposedly ordered the crucifixion? Pontius Pilate.

The idea that Jesus was never crucified stems from various reasons. Though both the Qur'an and the Talmud state quite clearly that he wasn't crucified, both sources are religious scriptures and thus open to plenty of manipulation. I prefer to explore the non-religious evidence.

Here's just one piece:

Though crucifixion was a popular form of execution during the time of Christ, and Pontius Pilate was known for sentencing crucifixion, there's no non-Biblical source that confirms that Jesus even came into contact with Pilate. That is, unless you consider the words of Josephus and Justin Martyr to be unbiased, non-Christian sources.

Philo of Alexandria ( 25 B.C. - 50 A.D. ) was a prominent historian at the time and wrote much about Pilate. It's believed that not only was Philo very familiar with the religious communities of Judea, but was even a personal friend of the apostle Peter. And yet, one can read through Pilate's trials and executions of many accused criminals that Philo documented and find not a single mention of Jesus being on trial or executed by him.

Wouldn't you think Jesus' crucifixion would've been considered at the very least controversial at the time?

To suggest that Christ wasn't famous and well known by the end of his ministry would conflict with quite a few Biblical passages.
edit on 27-6-2017 by AgarthaSeed because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-6-2017 by AgarthaSeed because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-6-2017 by AgarthaSeed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 01:00 PM
link   

originally posted by: onehuman




The Bible, which is now being kept in the Ethnography Museum of Ankara, contains the Gospel of Barnabas – one of the forgotten disciples of Christ. The Gospel says the Jesus was not crucified, nor was he the literal son of God – but was actually a Prophet.



The book in Turkey as above was found in 2012 by police after a raid on smugglers, was, according to local papers to be in police custody.
There are also other documents that describe similar stories already known of from the 16th /17th centuries in Spanish and Italian, and thought to be not original writings, perhaps revisionist. The Spanish document was lost while some of its text is in a partial 18th century transcript....I guess that makes things even more obscure, rather than definitive.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 03:07 PM
link   
a reply to: Sheye

You are both right, I was very wrong to get angry and my words were totally un Christian so thank you both for correcting me Sheye and Raggedyman.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 04:37 PM
link   

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: LABTECH767

May God bless and love those who don't know who He and His son and Spirit are
Jesus taught His "followers" no anger, no judgement

Remember you will be judged by God with the same measure you judge others


Jesus taught us not to be hypocrites in judgement... but we are not to partake in the follies of sin with others.

You have to have some judgement to be able to disassociate with those in serious sin.

If someone invites you to a party where there will be drunkeness, nudity and sexual perversity does a Christian say " oh.. I better not judge them and attend that party ? No.. a wise Christian will judge the action and refuse to be a part of it, because it would displease Christ.


Or a Christian might feel called to go and minister to the sinners, but in today's society, that's called being judgmental or hateful or both at once.

However, it is precisely what Jesus did. He himself said he was sent to the sinners, and he overturned the tables of the money changers in the temple and told the adulteress to go and sin no more.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 04:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Sheye

You are both right, I was very wrong to get angry and my words were totally un Christian so thank you both for correcting me Sheye and Raggedyman.


No worries.. and apologies always accepted. I get angry too , but it most likely stems from sadness and frustration and its always healthy to look at what is causing those feelings and deal with them in a clearer light.

We all have our basic human nature to contend with 😕




top topics



 
13
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join