It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
originally posted by: redchad
originally posted by: Raggedyman
This stuff has been around for a millennia
What makes it so questionable is that the original letters and gospels were written and told directly after the death of Christ
Imagine if someone today, someone famous, started running around saying he was executed then rose from the dead and no one actually saw it happen
They would be laughed at and ridiculed
No one would follow or even give them any validity, yet Jesus started one of the largest faith followings ever
Barnabas book, nothing new, nothing not already seen and studied
As for gold lettered writing, that is not really of any. Consequence, sounds like it is the exact opposite of what Christ taught people
Written 2000 years ago, that's another silly thing to say
Hang on I'm under the impression that it is well established by academics and religious historians that the earliest Gospel written was Mark and that was 60-90 years after Christs death and the others possibly over 100 years. It's a bit like me trying to write a book about the start of WW1
originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: redchad
Socrates said that the printing press and writing would make humanity dumb because they wouldn't have to remember history anymore
Your point is reasonably valid but in the ancient and near meddle east, oral history was in fact the way history was passed on
It's simple to say things were very different back before main stream media and tv and the Internet, it's true
originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: chr0naut
Jesus «died» in 37 AD, after his Sunday campaign for the Emperor's throne-- on a Wednesday at the same time emperor Tiberius was pronounced dead. The following Thursday was a High Day Sabbath» (since Wednesday was Erev Pessach i.e. «Day of Preparation»):
Words used in John 19:31-37 with their proper translations showing Jesus was salvaged at Calvary:
Nicene Creed not mentioning Jesus was dead, only that he was crucified and brought to a tomb:
originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: Seede
So if the Bible "Bolsters lack of education" i.e. makes you dumber, yet we aren't dumb enough to believe in it but YOU are, how are we uneducated?
You don't even know where Europeans learned almost all science from do you?
Muslims!!! Historical fact, science came into Latin via translation FROM Arabic and waa taught by Muslims.
The reason for the Crusades was Europe was poor and dirty, almost 3rd world.
And the Muslim Ummah was the most advanced on earth at the time.
You make this fun! I don't know about bolstering a lack of education, but if you believe in it I agree the Bible will make you stupid and evil and have no idea, think everyone else is.
...AS MEANS of communicating have expanded—from printing to the telephone, radio, television, and the Internet—the flow of persuasive messages has dramatically accelerated. This communications revolution has led to information overload, as people are inundated by countless messages from every quarter. Many respond to this pressure by absorbing messages more quickly and accepting them without questioning or analyzing them.
The cunning propagandist loves such shortcuts—especially those that short-circuit rational thought. Propaganda encourages this by agitating the emotions, by exploiting insecurities, by capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, and by bending rules of logic. As history bears out, such tactics can prove all too effective.
Playing on the Emotions
Even though feelings might be irrelevant when it comes to factual claims or the logic of an argument, they play a crucial role in persuasion. Emotional appeals are fabricated by practiced publicists, who play on feelings as skillfully as a virtuoso plays the piano.
For example, fear is an emotion that can becloud judgment. And, as in the case of envy, fear can be played upon. ...
Some propagandists play on pride. Often we can spot appeals to pride by looking for such key phrases as: “Any intelligent person knows that . . .” or, “A person with your education can’t help but see that . . .” A reverse appeal to pride plays on our fear of seeming stupid. Professionals in persuasion are well aware of that.
They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target.
The propagandist makes sure that his message appears to be the right and moral one and that it gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say.
originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: chr0naut
No, Pilate was released of his position when the Emperor died around Passover 37 AD. In 36 AD there were rumours that the emperor was dead, Pilate was sent to Rome and there the emperor was still alive. Pilate served another year until Tiberius did indeed die, just a few days before Passover in 37 AD. We know very little about Pilate, and until recently there were no proof of him even existing. Can you please cite your references?
ETA: Tiberius died 16 March 37 AD. Crucifying Jesus for high treason was one of the last things Pilate did. There is much confusion about when Tiberius died, since his health was deteriorating and there often came about rumors about his death. Among other in 36 AD. Pilate served until Tiberius died, upon which he was sent to Rome. See Tacitus on the subject ==> www.thelatinlibrary.com...
originally posted by: BlissSeeker
Jesus spent much time in the Himalayas. The Tibetan monks keep impeccable records. BBC did a documentary: www.youtube.com...
There are several others.
originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: chr0naut
I've enjoyed and learned a lot from reading your comments. You seem to be quite the well informed apologist. It would be fascinating to see an exchange between you and Krazysh0t. He's quite adamant that there's no historical proof for the existence of Jesus. But of course, there's no changing his mind on that topic.
Two points of interest on this topic.
First, its interesting that so many who don't believe Christ was crucified fail to point out a rather peculiar oddity, i.e., he expired after only approximately 6 hours of being on the Cross, (possibly 9 I suppose), when it was common for many crucified to "hang on" (no pun intended) for 12 or more hours, some even into the next day. Our church experts believe he expired so quickly because he'd lost so much blood from the excessively brutal scourging at the pillar. I would guess that to have been the cause.
Second, no one ever focuses on the bizaare phenomenon that occurred after Christ's passing, the "earth shook", tombs were opened, spirits of the dead walked about and the Temple Veil was rent in two. I suppose people either don't believe that really happened, that there's no non-Christian "secular" historical record of these events, or overlook the events as attributed to yet another earthquake in a region that is prone to earthquakes. I did find this reference:
(I can't speak to the veracity of this web site)
originally posted by: AlienVessel
a reply to: whereislogic
Why would it need to mention it?
‘DIFFERENT religions are simply different roads leading to the same goal. After all, there is only one God, is there not?’ That sentiment is shared by many who feel that although religious affiliation is important, it does not really matter which religion one chooses to follow.
At first glance, this argument may seem plausible, since it is true that there is only one God, the Almighty. (Isaiah 44:6; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) However, we cannot overlook the obvious differences—even contradictions—among the many religious groups who claim to serve the true God. They differ greatly in their practices, their beliefs, their teachings, and their requirements. The differences are so great that those belonging to one religion or group find it difficult to understand or accept what the others teach or believe.
On the other hand, Jesus said: “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Does worshiping God with truth allow for a range of contradictory ideas about who God is, what his purposes are, and how he wants to be worshiped? Is it logical to believe that it is immaterial to Almighty God how we worship him?
True Christians Then and Now
Christians of the first century at times had different opinions about things. For example, speaking of those in Corinth, the apostle Paul said: “Disclosure was made to me about you, my brothers, by those of the house of Chloe, that dissensions exist among you. What I mean is this, that each one of you says: ‘I belong to Paul,’ ‘But I to Apollos,’ ‘But I to Cephas,’ ‘But I to Christ.’”—1 Corinthians 1:11, 12.
Did Paul view these differences as of little significance? Was each individual simply following his own path to salvation? Far from it! Paul admonished: “I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”—1 Corinthians 1:10.
Of course, unity of belief cannot be achieved by coercion. It is achieved only when individuals carefully investigate matters and arrive at and accept the same conclusions. Thus, a personal study of God’s Word and an honest desire to apply what is learned are essential steps to enjoy the kind of unity that Paul spoke of. Can such unity be found? As we have seen, God has long dealt with his people as a group. Is it possible to identify that group today?
The Benefits of Right Association
The psalmist David once asked: “O Jehovah, who will be a guest in your tent? Who will reside in your holy mountain?” That surely is a thought-provoking question. David provided the answer: “He who is walking faultlessly and practicing righteousness and speaking the truth in his heart.” (Psalm 15:1, 2) An accurate understanding of the Bible will enable one to identify the religion that meets those divine requirements. Then, by associating with that group, one will enjoy upbuilding fellowship with people who worship God in unity and “with spirit and truth.”
Removing the resurrection would invalidate Christ's mission and purpose, which was to save us from the consequence of our sin. Invalidating that, then invalidates the Old Testament Torah and Prophets which spoke of just such a Messiah for just such a purpose. If they are not valid,then the God of Abraham is either a liar or a lie. If that is invalidated then the faith and writings of Muhammad, which he claims represent the God of Abraham, are invalid.