The speed of light and the expansion of space points to Pocket Universes

First, I'm talking about pocket universes in the broad sense as in unobservable space or pocket spaces vs. the narrow sense which involves things like String Theory and false vacua which is a more complicated discussion.

Sometimes I hear a debate about what's "outside" of the observable universe. I think the answer is a simple one. There's more space that we can't observe. We know there's galaxies moving away from us faster than the speed of light due to the expansion of space. SR tells us we can't see beyong the observable universe that's 46 billion light years across in any direction. So it's like standing in the middle of the street and looking in all directions but there's just so much that you can see. This doesn't mean things just cease existing because I can't see it.

If Inflation is correct, as many believe, then there's a googol of these pocket spaces.

Is there a Scientific argument that says space ceases to exist and galaxies just vanish when they move beyond the observable universe? Doesn't the observable universe just mean the space or pocket we can observe due to the speed of light?

Again, I'm talking about what Max Tegmark calls Level 1 universes or regions of unobservable space outside are cosmic horizon not other post inflation bubbles that may have different laws of physics which he calls Level 2.

I'm curious as to why this is even a debate. Isn't it a no brainer that a multiverse of pocket spaces exist because of the expansion of space and the speed of light? Space just doesn't stop being space or matter doesn't stop being matter because we can't see past a certain point due to the speed of light.

I believe to truly know, we will have to have the technology of space flight through worm holes. I think our understanding might fully comprehend in a few decades. If......... we don't blow ourselves to smithereens first. As Hawkings says, we must leave this Blue planet and adventure into space.

originally posted by: Plotus
I believe to truly know, we will have to have the technology of space flight through worm holes. I think our understanding might fully comprehend in a few decades. If......... we don't blow ourselves to smithereens first. As Hawkings says, we must leave this Blue planet and adventure into space.

a reply to: neoholographic

"If Inflation is correct, as many believe, then there's a googol of these pocket spaces."

What happens when one universe expands into another universe in this pocket space through?

Do they become one and merge or simply pass through one another in the same manner galaxies can down to the vast distances involved?

Fact of the matter remains that anything we cannot measure or quantify will remain a mystery. Wondering what took place before the creation of our universe is simple folly down to the nature of the question, because for our intents and purpose, nothing happened that we will ever be able to measure or observe.

originally posted by: Plotus
I believe to truly know, we will have to have the technology of space flight through worm holes. I think our understanding might fully comprehend in a few decades. If......... we don't blow ourselves to smithereens first. As Hawkings says, we must leave this Blue planet and adventure into space.

We are already voyaging through space as a passenger aboard the Milky Way Express at a speed that is mind boggling.

"These measurements, confirmed by the Cosmic Background Explorer satellite in 1989 and 1990, suggest that our galaxy and its neighbors, the so-called Local Group, are moving at 600 kilometers per second (1.34 million miles per hour) in the direction of the constellation Hydra."

Don't think we could ever do any better than that, so sit back and enjoy the ride.

Source

If you could isolate yourself from all the forces acting on you as momentum, you would be 1.34 million miles away from the earth in an hour.
That would take you to Mars in 24 hours.
You would experience no g forces because you wouldn't be moving, everything else would be moving.

a reply to: neoholographic

The last Knight and the time bomb made me start thinking of the possibility of such.

Chicago O’Hare International Airport UFO, documented and seen by airport personnel . Damon T Berry has done several videos, and on this subject the general consensus is that it lays on the site of just such an opening, ie. a wormhole. How to activate it is certainly worth investigation. If their doing such 'crazy' things at Cern, this may be worth a look.

a reply to: andy06shake

You said:

Fact of the matter remains that anything we cannot measure or quantify will remain a mystery. Wondering what took place before the creation of our universe is simple folly down to the nature of the question, because for our intents and purpose, nothing happened that we will ever be able to measure or observe.

This is just false.

We have measured this and this is why we can say with certainty that these universes exist.

We know that space can expand faster than the speed of light and the speed of light is limited to 186,282 miles per second. This means there will be observable pockets of space that have a boundary that limits this pocket of space by the speed of light but because space can expand faster than light there will be space that we can't see.

Again, this is an observed measurement. We don't have to see or measure these other spaces to know they exist because we know space can expand faster than light. It's pretty egocentric and I would say silly to think space just ends when we can't see it when we know space can expand faster than light.

a reply to: neoholographic

Obviously space does not end further than we can measure or perceive but as space can expand faster than light then there will inevitably be areas that we will never be able to perceive because the light will never reach us.

If there are other universe out there then it would be interesting to know what would happen should they manage to collide?

Maybe that's how singularities are born? After all if expansion is the case, then they can't come about from a big crunch.

Ether way it's a question that will remain a mystery given the very unobservable nature of the problem.

a reply to: andy06shake

You said:

Ether way it's a question that will remain a mystery given the very unobservable nature of the problem.

Again, not really.

It will not remain a mystery because each space would contain part of the wave function that was present at the Planck epoch.

So things like gravity waves and eventually quantum gravity and quantum computers will tell us more about these spaces.

In the meantime though, we don't need to know more about these spaces to know they exists. Space doesn't cease to be space because we can't see it. We can't see it because our horizon is limited by the speed of light and space expands faster than the speed of light. So it's not a mystery.

a reply to: neoholographic

I beg to disagree, the universe, is one big mystery, keeping in mind that we still don't really even know what comprises 96% of our universe or what dark energy/matter really even is.

Man simply does not have the capacity or tools to understand the universe in our present condition. So gravity wave detection, quantum computation or otherwise will only really end up posing more questions than they answer, which is how it should be i suppose.

Space containing part of a wave function or not, i cant really see how said function will explain what came before the big bang/singularity or how for that matter said singularity came about.

Can you explain please?

Personally i subscribe to the holographic principle these days, leading edge mathematics seems to suggest such and once we are able to measure the individual Planck unit we might even be able to determine if our universe is indeed holographic one way or the other.

a reply to: andy06shake

You said:

Can you explain please?

I have and you haven't refuted anything I have said about space expanding faster than light and the speed of light limits the horizon of these spaces because the speed of light is 186,282 miles per second.

Like I said you haven't refuted any of this evidence or have shown that space and matter just vanish because we can't see it. That's just silly.

We know matter in this space isn't uniform. This is why you pockets will form. In some areas, gravity will be stronger which allows matter to clump together and form stars and planets. Again, this isn't conjecture, we know this based on scientific evidence.

You don't have the capacity to understand some of these things. Everyone isn't in the same boat. You keep talking about this big mystery and I agree there's a lot of things we don't know but you haven't addressed what we do know. You haven't addressed the evidence in any way and showed that space ceases to exist because we can't see it when we know space can expand faster than the speed of light.


Like I said, we will know more about these things especially through quantum computers. With a quantum computer with just 300 qubits we will have a system that will have more computing power than the observable universe.

In fact, some estimate the computing power of the universe is 10^120 operations on around 10^90 bits.

The number of possible states that can be present in the superposition is huge - if we have N qubits then there are 2N possible states in the superposition. A quantum computer with just 30 qubits would have 1,073,741,824 posible states, and a quantum computer with 300 qubits would have roughly the same number of possible states as the total number of atoms in the known universe.

qoqms.phys.strath.ac.uk...

How close are we?

Google is Closer Than Ever to a Quantum Computer Breakthrough

Google is maintaining its edge in the world of quantum computing. Its 20-qubit processor is currently undergoing tests, and the company appears to be on schedule to have its working 49-qubit chip ready by the end of 2017 as promised. Until it began trialing the 20-qubit chip, Google’s most powerful quantum chip was the 9-qubit effort from 2015.

Google’s 49-qubit chip will allow them to develop a 49-qubit quantum system that can solve problems that are far beyond the capacity of ordinary computers: Google calls this goal quantum supremacy. The 20-qubit system that the Google quantum computing team is now working on currently boasts a “two-qubit fidelity” of 99.5 percent. The higher the rating, the fewer errors the system makes. Quantum supremacy demands not only a 49-qubit system, but also sufficient accuracy to achieve a two-qubit fidelity of at least 99.7 percent—which Google is on track to deliver by the end of 2017.

futurism.com...

We're not talking about D Wave quantum computers but universal quantum computers.

A lot of Researchers in this area didn't think we would reach Quantum Supremacy until the mid 2020's. We're talking about the end of this year. Look how progress has occurred.

In 2015 they had 9 qubits, this then jumped to 20 qubits and by the end of the year they say 49 qubits. So again, progress in this area is advancing. You then said:

Space containing part of a wave function or not, i cant really see how said function will explain what came before the big bang/singularity or how for that matter said singularity came about.

Of course it will because there's no evidence that a singularity can occur because of quantum mechanics. So many talk about an apparent singularity because a true singularity can't form.

This is why you have Scientist talking about black holes giving birth to universes.

So matter from a 4D universe falls into a black hole, gravity compresses this matter to a single point but that point can only get so small because at a certain size quantum mechanics takes over. You then have a Planck Epoch. The same thing we see at the beginning of our universe. The matter that fell into the black hole is no longer concentrated and there's points where gravity is weak because there's not a lot of matter present and this is when inflation occurs. This is why Professor Alan Guth says it would just take a little matter to cause a universe to inflate. Here's Guth talking about this in 1987:

''The odd thing is that you might even be able to start a new universe using energy equivalent to just a few pounds of matter,'' Dr. Guth said. ''Provided you could find some way to compress it to a density of about 10 to the 75th power grams per cubic centimeter, and provided you could trigger the thing, inflation would do the rest.'' In the space of less than a microsecond the new universe would inflate to enormous size and create for itself all the matter and energy it would ever contain. In all respects, it would resemble our own universe. A Universe in a Basement

Dr. Guth believes that the pressures and temperatures needed to launch an entire new universe from a small chunk of matter would be gigantic but not necessarily infinite. This loophole might mean, he said, that at least in theory, human beings could create a new universe from virtually nothing. ''Such an achievement is obviously far beyond our technology,'' he said, ''but some advanced civilization in the distant future might. . . well, you never know. For all we know, our own universe may have started in someone's basement.''

www.nytimes.com...

The point is, with things like quantum computing, A.I. and Big Data coupled with what we already know, many of these things will be known and you haven't refuted anthing thing that supports what I'm saying. Also none of this is in conflict with the Holographic Universe which boils down to information and QM.

a reply to: neoholographic

"I have and you haven't refuted anything I have said about space expanding faster than light"

Why would i?

I'm not trying to refute anything you have suggested, quite interested really.

Your the one that seems to be rather defensive if i do say so.

I'm simply asking questions buddy and offering up my own suggestions.

Point is humanity is still in its infancy, we may ponder such questions but the fact is we simply don't have the tools at or disposal to draw any meaningful definitive conclusions, and possibly never will have.

Nor will we ever be able to answer what happened before the big bang because for all intents and purposes space-time did not exist. Or if it did, it cant be measured, hence is meaningless to any conclusions we may have regarding our own universe.

The point is we don't have a clue as to the point really.

a reply to: andy06shake

You said:

Point is humanity is still in its infancy, we may ponder such questions but the fact is we simply don't have the tools at or disposal to draw any meaningful definitive conclusions, and possibly never will have.

Sure we can. We're not idiots. We know space expands faster than light and the speed of light is 186,282 miles per second. We know matter isn't spread out in a uniform way.

So again, you're not responding to the thread but to some general notion nobody knows anything because we're in our infancy. That's doesn't mean much as it pertains to the thread.

Why would we need to know what happened before the singularity to know that space expands faster than the speed of light?

Here's the title of the thread.

The speed of light and the expansion of space points to Pocket Universes

You don't need to be Einstein to understand that if space expands faster than light there will be space that we can't see because our cosmic horizon is limited to the speed of light.

a reply to: neoholographic

"Sure we can. We're not idiots."

Really???

Have you seen the state of the world lately?

We still fight over stupid religious indifference, increasingly diminishing resources, and refuse to learn from our past historical transgressions, time and time again, throughout recorded history.

I would not say we are smart, as a race, by any manner or means. And trust me when i tell you that the majority of us are not pondering the same questions that we are, in the same manner or in the way we have the luxury of doing.

You don't need to be Einstein to understand that the majority of the universe, around 96% or so, is still a mystery to us, and will probobly remain so for the foreseeable future.

We don't even know what constitutes uniform pertaining to universe given the distinct fact that we have no other comparison to compare against so how can we say matter is not spread out in a uniform way?

We don't even know what the majority of said matter that makes up the universe comprises of! You do see the conundrum given our distinct lack of knowledge, data and understanding of the subject in question.

For all intents and purpose mostly our whole universe is limited to the speed of light, expansion just somewhat sidesteps the problem or creates a a larger one depending on how you look at it.

a reply to: andy06shake

Again, you're not making any sense. You say:

You don't need to be Einstein to understand that the majority of the universe, around 96% or so, is still a mystery to us, and will probobly remain so for the foreseeable future.

This is just a meaningless statement. There's a lot we do know and this is why you're typing on a computer right now. How do you think we have advances in Science and Technology if everyone is just stupid?

Just because you don't know and can't grasp these issues it doesn't mean others can't. How do you even drive or ride in a car? Oh yeah, stupid humans invented them.

We don't even know what constitutes uniform pertaining to universe given the distinct fact that we have no other comparison to compare against so how can we say matter is not spread out in a uniform way?

Another statement that makes no sense.

We do know what constitutes unform because of things like General Relativity. We know this because fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background that expanded into large scale structures and these structures didn't expand uniformly but clumped together in some places.

New CMB Measurements Further Support Inflationary Universe

Major new cosmic microwave background (CMB) measurements uphold the idea of an early "inflationary" era during which the observable universe expanded with superluminal speed and tiny quantum fluctuations in the density of matter were amplified into much larger structures, according to results presented at the APS April meeting in Washington, DC. These structures are imprinted in the CMB as faint variations in the temperature across the microwave sky. The CMB, the curtain of photons set free when the expanding universe became cool enough to permit the existence of neutral atoms, is the earliest, largest, and furthest observable thing in all of science.

The best way to extract cosmological information from the CMB is to plot the observed microwave power as a function of the angular size of regions contributing to the CMB. The inflation model predicts that this spectrum should feature a number of peaks. The first peak, at an angular size of about 1 degree, corresponds to the largest blobs of matter in the primordial plasma at the time of the CMB, about 400,000 years after the big bang. Subsequent peaks should correspond to blobs that had come together under the action of gravity but had then rebounded outward because of radiation pressure, and later still had condensed for a second or third time.

Turner observed that last year's discovery of the first microwave peak constituted the first great vindication for the Inflation model and that this new discovery of secondary peaks was the second great vindication. The third type of evidence, Turner said, would be the detection of gravity waves from before the time of the CMB. "This is just the beginning," he said. "Not only will we be able to test inflation, but we will be able to learn about its underlying physical cause."

www.aps.org...

All you have to do is read. You just keep making these vacuous statements devoid of any Science.

a reply to: neoholographic

And all you have to do is accept the fact that Science, while the best tool at our disposal, in it's present state is incapable of answering or even addressing some of the larger questions that pertain to our understanding of the universe, same with the quantum realm for that matter.

I understand the premise that space-time is indeed expanding just fine don't mean we will ever be able to observe, understand or quantify something that happened before the current iteration of space-time existed aka what happened before the singularity came into being or even why our universe is expanding rather than contracting or staying the same.

What makes no sense is the superiority complex you seem to display and inability to entertain other notions and/or ideas, how very scientific.

Put it this way "I know that i know nothing" while you on the other hand seem rather self assured regarding knowledge, information and fields humanity is only just beginning to explore or possibly relearn.

And on that note i will bid you a good evening.

a reply to: andy06shake

You said:

Put it this way "I know that i know nothing" while you on the other hand seem rather self assured regarding knowledge, information and fields humanity is only just beginning to explore or possibly relearn.

Again, this is just vacuous and has nothing to do with the thread or Science in any way. It's your philosophy and I don't care about your philosophy. If I wanted to debate philosophy, I would have started a thread in the Philosophy Forums.

You know nothing but that doesn't mean everyone else is ignorant. How do you think science and technology advances? It's because we know more today than we did 1,000 years ago.

Again, you're debating this way because you can't refute anything I've said with any scientific understanding.

So instead you say, I know nothing and nobody else can know nothing.

Earlier you said:

Personally i subscribe to the holographic principle these days

How can you subscribe to the Holographic Principle if you know nothing LOL? The fact is you say you know nothing and nobody else can know nothing when you can't debate or grasp the issues.

Again, if you know that you know nothing then how can you subscribe to the Holographic Principle if you don't know nothing about the Holographic Principle?

How is you know about the Holographic Principle but you play dumb when it comes to the expansion of space?

a reply to: neoholographic

Again.

Night, night, don't let the speed of light bite. x

Here's an interesting video of Max Tegmark talking to Robert Kuhn from Closer to the Truth.



He says a couple of things that support what I'm saying. Like I said, this is a scientific debate not a debate about personal Philosophy.

He first says, that not a single one of his colleagues in Astrophysics that thinks that space ends at the cosmic horizon. He says the question is how far does it extend and if Alan Guth and inflation is correct than you would have infinite space because there's nothing to stop inflation.

He then talks about Level 1-3 universes and it gets really interesting when he talks about Level 4 universes. This goes to his book Our Mathematical Universe where math isn't just describing reality the math has an independent existence.

He also talks about using quantum computers to know more about the nature of reality. He correctly points out that eventually a quantum computer will out compute the universe and will be doing computations in these parallel universes or pocket spaces. This is why I talked about the wave function from the Planck Epoch people spread out over all of these spaces.

Again, the universe is estimated to have done about 10^120 operations, if you have a 300 qubit computer, you're doing 10^300 operations at one time. It took the universe 13 billion years to do 10^120 operations. So we will have a computer that has more computational power than the universe.