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GOP can go to hell.

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posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 05:37 AM
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a reply to: Grambler



Well I will assume until you explain it that Bernie has done more research than you, and his plan would put us trillions in debt.


Bernie has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter. Why are you even bringing him in to this?



Yes private people would be paid, but the government would control all MONEY for health care, hence they would control it.


The government would only control certain aspects.



I mean you literally have admitted that this plan is unworkable unless the entire government changes, which will not happen.


I did not say that the entire government has to change. Why is it that I spend more time addressing things I did not say, than what I did say? Are you not paying attention to the conversation? Stop putting words in my mouth.



You are not interested in reality, you are interested in utopia. In reality, universal healthcare would cost trillions more to the already 40 trillion of debt that we have left for our children in the name of providing health care, and would make that care far less effective.


Of course it would cost more, but we would actually be saving money in total because we are cutting-out the middle men.

And I hope you notice that you are using a logical fallacy, an appeal to emotion.

Think of the kids...




posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 06:11 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl
What are you snivelin' about?

The last time I went to the hospital, they tried to charge me almost $9K for an outpatient surgery. They wound up gettin' paid something close to $3K.

That's what you should be complaining about. That some damn care facility can 'arbitrarily' charge you.


When my wife was in ICU for three days and died they tried to charge 265,000 USD.. The insurance company paid them off with 90k.. Which was still way to much for what was done.. You can buy a friggen house for that kind of money... So TPTB can tax you A**... I guess no matter what it cost to live.. I just chose to not be stupid about it..

I do not know how to fix the insane stupid pricing that goes on in America.. Other than go any other place than the states for medical.. My last doctor visit where I stayed in a private room for three days and had all kinds of test done cost me less than $100 USD.. They were worried I might have gotten some kind of mosquito born illness.. All clear and I was ready to leave by the second day..

The last time I went to a dentist office and had my teeth cleaned and even got an X-ray the pricing/bill did not come close to $20 dollars.. But again that is not in the states.. Hell even Mexico is 1000% better and cheaper than the states if you can dodge the bullets !

Again I have no answer to the problem but I assure everyone I can bitch about the cost structure of medical in the states with the best of them !!



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 06:52 AM
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I was a kid once.
I can't imagine why anyone would want one.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:13 AM
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a reply to: Gothmog

You might be surprised how many things I see on Reddit that miraculously appear on ATS within a few hours. I suspect a large part of our political "conspiracy" stuff is Reddit generated.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:19 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler



Well I will assume until you explain it that Bernie has done more research than you, and his plan would put us trillions in debt.


Bernie has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter. Why are you even bringing him in to this?



Yes private people would be paid, but the government would control all MONEY for health care, hence they would control it.


The government would only control certain aspects.



I mean you literally have admitted that this plan is unworkable unless the entire government changes, which will not happen.


I did not say that the entire government has to change. Why is it that I spend more time addressing things I did not say, than what I did say? Are you not paying attention to the conversation? Stop putting words in my mouth.



You are not interested in reality, you are interested in utopia. In reality, universal healthcare would cost trillions more to the already 40 trillion of debt that we have left for our children in the name of providing health care, and would make that care far less effective.


Of course it would cost more, but we would actually be saving money in total because we are cutting-out the middle men.

And I hope you notice that you are using a logical fallacy, an appeal to emotion.

Think of the kids...


Yes we know, your super secret universal health care plan that you won't give details on and somehow doesn't exclusively have the government control all of the money for it is so much different and better than Bernies universal health care plan.

You argument in this thread is laughable. I say here is examples of when the government runs things its bad. You say health care is different. I say the VS sucks and the government runs it. You say universal is different. I show you how much Bernies universal health care would cost, and you say that doesn't matter, because your super secret plan that you don't want to discuss the details of would be awesome and save money.

The universal health care people (like you) are the ones that appeal to emotion saying how we must provide health care for the poor, and yet you ignore the people you hurt (ie the future tax payer who will have to pay for your poor policies).



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:38 AM
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a reply to: Grambler



Yes we know, your super secret universal health care plan that you won't give details on and somehow doesn't exclusively have the government control all of the money for it is so much different and better than Bernies universal health care plan.


My ideas on a UHC plan are different than Bernie's. I'm not quite sure why you are stuck on him and I am not accountable for his ideas.



You argument in this thread is laughable. I say here is examples of when the government runs things its bad. You say health care is different. I say the VS sucks and the government runs it. You say universal is different.


Heathcare is different than the examples you provided, like SS, and the VA issues would easily be solved with a UHC system, because the vets could go anywhere they chose to get care.



I show you how much Bernies universal health care would cost, and you say that doesn't matter, because your super secret plan that you don't want to discuss the details of would be awesome and save money.


Again, go talk to Bernie about his plan.

And my plan is not super secret. It's just more complicated than the simplified version you need to have in order to understand it and I don't want to derail this thread with a long post explaining it.

And it would save money. Do you deny that costs would be lower if we did not have to pay for the insurance companies profit and administration costs?



The universal health care people (like you) are the ones that appeal to emotion saying how we must provide health care for the poor, and yet you ignore the people you hurt (ie the future tax payer who will have to pay for your poor policies).


I have not appealed to emotion. You did. We already provide healthcare for the poor. I think we need to expand it, simplify it and take the profit motive out of healthcare.

Funny though. Did you actually think you could use an "I know you are but what am I" argument?



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:50 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

The VA where I live is apparently awesome. It is well run, well managed and Vets get appointments when they need them, as well as equipment (like prosthetics or c-pap machines) and therapies (PT and mental health) and its great! I have friends who are Vets and they say that our VA is how it's supposed to run.

The problem is crappy management in certain states/areas. They need to use places like ours as models.

Don't forget, there are people who want the VA to fail and be privatized. We don't have that ideological problem here and we have good management to boot.

I would take this VA any day for my own healthcare.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:53 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler



Yes we know, your super secret universal health care plan that you won't give details on and somehow doesn't exclusively have the government control all of the money for it is so much different and better than Bernies universal health care plan.


My ideas on a UHC plan are different than Bernie's. I'm not quite sure why you are stuck on him and I am not accountable for his ideas.



You argument in this thread is laughable. I say here is examples of when the government runs things its bad. You say health care is different. I say the VS sucks and the government runs it. You say universal is different.


Heathcare is different than the examples you provided, like SS, and the VA issues would easily be solved with a UHC system, because the vets could go anywhere they chose to get care.



I show you how much Bernies universal health care would cost, and you say that doesn't matter, because your super secret plan that you don't want to discuss the details of would be awesome and save money.


Again, go talk to Bernie about his plan.

And my plan is not super secret. It's just more complicated than the simplified version you need to have in order to understand it and I don't want to derail this thread with a long post explaining it.

And it would save money. Do you deny that costs would be lower if we did not have to pay for the insurance companies profit and administration costs?



The universal health care people (like you) are the ones that appeal to emotion saying how we must provide health care for the poor, and yet you ignore the people you hurt (ie the future tax payer who will have to pay for your poor policies).


I have not appealed to emotion. You did. We already provide healthcare for the poor. I think we need to expand it, simplify it and take the profit motive out of healthcare.

Funny though. Did you actually think you could use an "I know you are but what am I" argument?


Oh and I have a health care plan that would cost zero dollars and lead to better care too that doesn't use the government.

Any argument you have as to why a free market solution would not work doesn't apply to my plan. I would post details, but it is complicated and would be difficult for you to understand, and I don't want to derail.

So I guess we can agree my plan is best because it costs no money.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:54 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

I have a life, friend. I haven't read beyond the first sentence of your post. I won't be able to give an answer for awhile so chill on the insults. I ain't reticent. I'm caring for my family.




posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 09:56 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

You tried projection, deflection and appeal to emotion. Didn't work.

So now you are resorting to being childish?




posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:00 AM
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originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: Grambler

I have a life, friend. I haven't read beyond the first sentence of your post. I won't be able to give an answer for awhile so chill on the insults. I ain't reticent. I'm caring for my family.



Oh come on now. You had time to post over and over again since I asked that question. Just be honest, you didn't want to answer it. Thats fine. That wasn't an insult, I just asked why you wouldn't answer the question.

I already made my main point.

Your story proves you were actually able to afford these bills, and therefore using your example as a reason to have others pay for health care is a bad example.

Why should have other people had to pay for a bill you can afford? If people should have, why is shouldn't you have to use all of your disposable income to pay for a poorer person with a far more serious medical condition?

It really seems as if your argument boils down to the fact that you want health care to provide the maximum benefit to you at the lowest possible cost to you.

Thats fine, you have every right to argue that. But appealing to morality by citing your personal difficulties is disingenuous considering you are merely making a financial argument to benefit yourself.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler



Yes we know, your super secret universal health care plan that you won't give details on and somehow doesn't exclusively have the government control all of the money for it is so much different and better than Bernies universal health care plan.


My ideas on a UHC plan are different than Bernie's. I'm not quite sure why you are stuck on him and I am not accountable for his ideas.



You argument in this thread is laughable. I say here is examples of when the government runs things its bad. You say health care is different. I say the VS sucks and the government runs it. You say universal is different.


Heathcare is different than the examples you provided, like SS, and the VA issues would easily be solved with a UHC system, because the vets could go anywhere they chose to get care.



I show you how much Bernies universal health care would cost, and you say that doesn't matter, because your super secret plan that you don't want to discuss the details of would be awesome and save money.


Again, go talk to Bernie about his plan.

And my plan is not super secret. It's just more complicated than the simplified version you need to have in order to understand it and I don't want to derail this thread with a long post explaining it.

And it would save money. Do you deny that costs would be lower if we did not have to pay for the insurance companies profit and administration costs?



The universal health care people (like you) are the ones that appeal to emotion saying how we must provide health care for the poor, and yet you ignore the people you hurt (ie the future tax payer who will have to pay for your poor policies).


I have not appealed to emotion. You did. We already provide healthcare for the poor. I think we need to expand it, simplify it and take the profit motive out of healthcare.

Funny though. Did you actually think you could use an "I know you are but what am I" argument?


Oh and I have a health care plan that would cost zero dollars and lead to better care too that doesn't use the government.

Any argument you have as to why a free market solution would not work doesn't apply to my plan. I would post details, but it is complicated and would be difficult for you to understand, and I don't want to derail.

So I guess we can agree my plan is best because it costs no money.


You should make a thread about it. Otherwise we just have a claim that it would cost zero dollars and be awesome.

I don't honestly care if healthcare is privitized or uses government coordination for funding. I do care about people being able to receive excellent care when they need it and not having our healthcare system become an elitist nightmare, like the current legislation is promoting.

And don't bet that people can't understand you. If you explain it well, you might be surprised.

Meanwhile, I'm fighting for my family and my kids' lives. Do you understand that?



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

You tried projection, deflection and appeal to emotion. Didn't work.

So now you are resorting to being childish?



I have dealt with this type of argument before. It is the classic socialists argument.

There can be no critique of your solution, because it is different than any other solution proposed.

I can't use the critique of Bernie universal health care, because somehow your plan is different. It does all of the good things of Bernies plan, but with none of the bad.

You can't let anyone know the details of your plan though. We just have to trust you that its great.

This is childish, and proof that you are not interested in a serious discussion.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

Really? I'm so glad you know my schedule.

Relax. I have work to do. Bye for now.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

I didn't mention the bankruptcy.


That happened too.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: Grambler

I didn't mention the bankruptcy.


That happened too.


And yet here you are, doing fine.

I have tens of thousands in student loans. Oh, and I can't declare bankruptcy to get out of them.

Why should I have to pay to help your medical bills that you have dealt with, when I have debts of my own to pay?

Are you willing to cut me a check to pay for my debts that I can't declare bankruptcy on?

Again, you focus only on your hardship, which is fine. But to demand policy be written to tailor to your exact situation is not a feasible argument.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:22 AM
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a reply to: deadlyhope

Its a pretty bleak picture. It's all part of the GOP over all purging plan. Make it damn near financially impossible for working class to have a family. American women, especially educated ones, will choose to pass on having babies, its already started. Of course, babies grow to be old so can't have too many of them, better to import foreigners and send them back when they are not needed :

"Medicaid covers health care expenses of 74 million low-income Americans, including nursing home care for those who can't afford it.
• Medicare, a program that covers medical expenses for Americans over 65 does not cover nursing homes.
• The New York Times reports that 42% of Medicaid spending goes to services like nursing home care. Cutting spending in the program would hit the elderly, or put pressure on nursing home operators to cut back. "

www.businessinsider.com...



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: Shamrock6

Yet, procreation still happens...hmm mm stfu maybe?? Black and white conservative obviously. Everybody just use rubbers, only rich people can have babies now. Grow up.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: Grambler



There can be no critique of your solution, because it is different than any other solution proposed.


I am all for a critiquing, but that is not what you have done. You have deflected and projected.



I can't use the critique of Bernie universal health care, because somehow your plan is different. It does all of the good things of Bernies plan, but with none of the bad.


I've made no claims about Bernie's plan and I have not said any such thing.



You can't let anyone know the details of your plan though. We just have to trust you that its great.


I don't care if you trust me or not and I'm not asking you to think it's great. I'm only giving you my opinion that much of the problems we face would be gone if we went to a UHC system. How it is designed to work is up for serious debate, but the goal should be to have everyone covered and take the insurance companies out of the equation.

Can you at least start by agreeing with those two simple premises?



This is childish, and proof that you are not interested in a serious discussion.


I'm glad you are willing to admit your childishness. We cannot have a serious discussion if you cannot get past the deflections, projections and logical fallacies.



posted on Jun, 27 2017 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: Shamrock6



You might be surprised how many things I see on Reddit that miraculously appear on ATS within a few hours

Oh , I am not surprised at all
Case in point....
Check and Mate



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