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That is an excellent point.
originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Grambler
what do you propose we do, let people just die?? seriously, we are a country that can't even allow doctors help terminal patients exit this world at a time of their choosing, we want to force them to stick around suffering through those last few days... how much taxpayer money would be saved if we just changed our way of thinking in this area? instead, well look at all the screaming that was done by the "life is sacred" crowd over Terry Schiavo. our society isn't capable of ignoring the sick and needy, to watch them suffer, so ya, there will always be at least the illusion that everyone that needs healthcare can obtain it, and it will fit most of the people. hospitals will take in the poor regardless of weather or not they have any way to pay them for their services. but, can our system survive providing essentially free care for all those who have no way to pay for the services they need? you take the gov't funds out of healthcare you don't really have that many choices as to what to do next...
either accept that some might not get the care the need and see grandparents, children, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers die because they are poor...
or expect the healthcare to provide the care regardless, and I can probably assure you that charity won't cover that need and the hospitals will start taking huge losses, and either go under or get bailed out by the gov't.
if obamacare did not much of anything else, it did put the healthcare providers on more stable ground than they were before it was passed...
hospitals will take in the poor regardless of weather or not they have any way to pay them for their services. but, can our system survive providing essentially free care for all those who have no way to pay for the services they need?
originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler
Those who pay nothing in taxes are the poor, not middle class, and already have full coverage, which are in Republican states, according to your source.
The middle class is paying at least 25% and that does not include the other taxes they pay, plus costs for insurance and healthcare costs beyond what the insurance companies do not cover.
Also, your source does not break down their income tax payments according to where the money goes. It says 45% just for healthcare, but that is incorrect.
originally posted by: DanteGaland
a reply to: Grambler
YES...ppl get care in the ER...
SOME care.
What about a heart TRANSPLANT? or Ongoing chemotherapy?
I don't WANT health insurance. I WANT healthcare.
Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."
originally posted by: DanteGaland
a reply to: Grambler
Even in the USA there are wait lists for specialists.
Trying to make it SOUND like we have "insta-care" from orthopedic specialsts, cardiologists, oncologists...
Even WITH private insurance I've had to BOOK appointments 4 MONTHS out for a specialist personally.
Yes, the people who pay no taxes would have to pay 20% in taxes, as they do in the UK.
You think that is cheaper? You think middle class people will be willing to pay 40%? You think millions of people that pay no income tax now will be happy to pay15% or 20%?
You are the one that mentioned other countries, and yet you have no argument that this would be cheaper or liked by the people of the US.
Where are your numbers for your plan, you know, that secret one that you can't talk about?
A universal health care system will drive up costs
just as guarentee government loans has driven up the price of education.
And who will pay for it? Thats right, future generations.
Just like social security right?
You mention Terry Schiavo. Are you suggesting that the government should have had to pay to keep her alive no matter what the cost? Of course that is unfeasible.
originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler
Yes, the people who pay no taxes would have to pay 20% in taxes, as they do in the UK.
That is untrue. That does not include the tax system they have in place for personal allowances after a certain income level, much like here in the US. The tax burden is much lower.
You think that is cheaper? You think middle class people will be willing to pay 40%? You think millions of people that pay no income tax now will be happy to pay15% or 20%?
You're not putting this in proper perspective. You don't understand the tax system, do you?
You are the one that mentioned other countries, and yet you have no argument that this would be cheaper or liked by the people of the US.
What does one have to do with the other?
Where are your numbers for your plan, you know, that secret one that you can't talk about?
I've addressed that issue. Where are your rebuttals to my posts that refute your ridiculous claims.
Can you stay on track, or must you continue to deflect?
originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Grambler
A universal health care system will drive up costs
In the beginning every program drives costs up but over time the prices will start going down.
just as guarentee government loans has driven up the price of education.
Wrong banks drove up the cost of education.
And who will pay for it? Thats right, future generations.
The poor and middle class will pay for it like always. After all the elites pet in the WH is giving them even more tax breaks. Funny how they don't whine about that welfare.
Just like social security right?
You mean the social program that had a trust fund until it was emptied out by Clinton and Bush?