Unanswered Questions. The shooting of Matt Mika at the Republican Congressional baseball practice.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Dragoon01
I honestly did not know of Dan Harder giving that statement as I had not read your post on that matter and was basing that on the other congressmen who appeared on Sean Hanity the night of the shooting. More than one said that Mika was out on the field when the shooting started in fact if I recall correctly one of them indicated he was standing near Scalise when the shots began.

Do you have a link for this???

I would have to look for it, I watched the show live that night so I dont even know if that is online anywhere. Hannity was at the ball field that night live from about 9:00 ET and they replayed it at midnight. It may have been 10PM I dont recall specifically I just remember thinking the time for his show was odd.

a reply to: Dragoon01

I get it, whatever the official story is will certainly be plausible. I really do get it.

Do I believe things just because you told me that some Congressmen were on Hannity saying Matt Mika was shot on the field and/or shot in the back 12-14 hours...3 days...and a week, after the shooting?

No. I am going to have to have a link to the show or a transcript to read through what was said.

a reply to: Dragoon01

Found it.

Link

The 'staffer' referred to is, in fact, a staffer...Zach Barth.

I think you may be confusing Mika with Barth.

I'll look through more thoroughly to see if there is anything to say Mika was shot on the field though.

a reply to: Dragoon01

I read the Hannity interview transcript.

The 'staffer' is Zach Barth, not Matt Mika. There's no substantive mention of Matt Mika, at all, and the entire segment is weak-sauce deluxe.

If I had the chance to ask them some questions!!!!! They'd be GOOD questions.

originally posted by: Dragoon01
It is VERY easy to hit a 4 inch circle with an SKS at 40 yards multiple times in quick succession.

You do not need a scope to do that. The rifle is quite accurate out to at least 300 yards even with cheap surplus ammo. There is no commercially available "flechette" rounds for the 7.62x39. There is no reload data for that type of round either because no one uses flechettes in center fire rifle cartridges. There is nothing to suggest any kind of exotic ammo. All of the proscribed wounds are consistent with a standard 7.62x39 round.

other stuff

Bold = True. Very true. My question then, how would someone who's just been shot at least once at ~40 yards in the upper body, not get knocked down? The stopping power on that round is its claim to fame, and one of the reasons I like it.

Scalise went down and stayed there. Granted, he got it in the hip, so he probably wasn't in a hurry to run, but still, taking a round in the upper torso will at least spin him to the point of a pirouette. At least enough for someone other than Harder, who's story is flimsy at best, to see him take that hit and go down, get up, go down, get up, etc.

Underline = Playing devils advocate there trying to see what kind of possibilities there may be for a different sound. Flechettes would be too light a grain to actually do real damage at that distance, especially from a centerfire. I have seen exotic loads for many different calibers though, including 7.62x39. The incindiary ones are neat, but thats about it. Would not trust my life to those.

My issue with the "official" round being a 7.62 is that it is a heavy hitter, and as such, it should've put the dude down, regardless of his age. Thats like getting hit by a 20lb sledge. You dont have a choice in the matter.

Here is a video of a boar being shot by the same round. It is probably disturbing to someone out there, so here is the link, but, I'm slow with message board formatting...

So it dropped the boar without a hesitation. Different animal, different shot (was about a good a shot as you could've asked for, hes got other videos showing the up close on the boar which I wont post here) sure, but, he got dropped. As Mika should've been.

Has anyone posed this idea yet?

Mike shot by 7.62 initially and makes way toward dugout where return fire from Cabrera or other Capitol officer (can't remember who was supposed to be where) strikes Mika accidentally?

Are all of his wounds consistent with 7.62, or are there varying sizes and styles? Like 7.62 and 9mm or .40 (whatever the return fire was)?

If he was hit by a 7.62 round that hit his arm, especially upper arm, wouldn't that have come off as a casualty? IT clearly didn't and he is able to use it well enough to hold up the Jayson Werth jersey. So was it a simple flesh wound in the upper arm? Biceps injury wouldn't allow his arm to be positioned like that. Not saying a 9mm or .40 would be any better, but, well, they would. I'd rather take a 9mm to the shoulder vs a 7.62x39. That's just me though.

I just have a hard time with multiple shots from an SKS striking the target in the upper torso, and the target being able to scramble to safety. Deer that are hit with a single shot can get some distance, especially when its a poorly placed shot. Quadruped vs. Biped though.

I dunno. I sell houses. I don't solve crimes.

That transcript is not complete. They specifically mention Matt Mika and told his background as being a former staffer who was now a Tyson lobbyist. I am positive that this was in the original interview. I may have mistook who Jeff Flake was talking about when he said this

SEN. JEFF FLAKE, R-ARIZ.: One staffer was shot out in the field. And he ran with a wound to the dugout.

(this was a video that was cut into the program)
but I know that they mentioned Mika and his background. It also says at the top of the page that the transcript is a rush and may not be complete.
If I recall correctly the congressman who mentioned that was Marshall and it was during his part of the interview.
Oddly enough I cant find that complete interview on line. Thats interesting in and of itself.


At any rate,
I did get a chance to listen to the audio of the shooting video, until today I had only watched the video and not had a chance to listen to the actual gunshots. By my count the rifle shots are right around 30 which would be consistent with what I suggested his SKS modified to take a 30 round magazine, At that point you hear a number of pistol shots that sound closer to the camera and would be consistent with the Capital police returning fire. Then we hear nothing but pistol shots from that point forward.

a reply to: RicketyCricket

No doubt the 7.62 has power, but its an intermediate cartridge. You just need to pull up videos from the current deployments to see guys getting hit with AKs (same ammo) that continue to move around and function.
Under stress the body does odd things and it can take many seconds for you to react to getting hit. Range has a lot to do with it as well as ammo type. If this guy was using steel core you would see a different reaction than that of a hollow point or soft tip hunting round. All those types are very much available commercially. The steel core is a bit harder to get but its out there. Regardless him getting hit in the arm is not going to necessarily mean that arm comes off in surgery. Like I said it could have caught him in the fleshy part of the upper arm and went right through, missing vitals.
At this point we still do not know exactly where Mika was when he was shot. I can concede that Mika may not have been on the field or at least where I thought he may have been when the shooting began but that still does not mean he was near the police when he was shot. If you think about the Capital police sitting for this entire practice they would no doubt have had a understanding of what the players were wearing, I think it would be very unlikely that they would have mistakenly shot him. Although its possible I think its highly unlikely. I think everyone knew where the shots were originating from when they began. The men on the field knew exactly where they were coming from and I cant see a reason that the cops would have mistaken someone near them for the shooter when it would be clear to them that the shots were coming from the other side of the field and everyone was running from that direction towards them. I think that precludes the possibility of a mistaken shot from the cops that hit Mika.
Its possible that he was hit by friendly fire during the exchange due to poor marksmanship but I again nothing I see suggests this was a hit carried out by the Capital police.

Now all that said, I am perfectly willing to entertain the idea that the shooter deliberately targeted Scalise and Mika. I think that is very much a possibility. I just cant see this being some kind of police inside job.

originally posted by: Dragoon01
That transcript is not complete. They specifically mention Matt Mika and told his background as being a former staffer who was now a Tyson lobbyist. I am positive that this was in the original interview. I may have mistook who Jeff Flake was talking about when he said this

SEN. JEFF FLAKE, R-ARIZ.: One staffer was shot out in the field. And he ran with a wound to the dugout.

You did.

That was Zach Barth, not Matt Mika. Barth was hit on the field and went to the dugout where a tourniquet was applied on his leg. None of the people on Hannity have stated in any other interviews that they saw where Matt was when he was shot, so unless you can find actual video showing what you think you heard, then I cannot take your word for it.

But you are free to believe or disbelieve what you want about what happened.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Slow you roll there a little bit.

I know that Mika was mentioned in this interview and that is what lead to my conflating him with the statement from Flake. I had no knowledge of the people involved until I saw this on the night of the attack but I can see that was an error on my part. Again this transcript is not complete and the video online is even shorter than that transcript.
That being said, it still does not change my position that nothing about this attack indicates it was anything other than what has been reported. There is nothing mysterious about Mikas injuries that we are aware of.
If he was indeed near the dug out and the SUVs when the shooting began then he is still in the direct line of fire from the shooters position and could easily have been hit in quick succession after Scalise was shot.

originally posted by: Dragoon01

If he was indeed near the dug out and the SUVs when the shooting began then he is still in the direct line of fire from the shooters position and could easily have been hit in quick succession after Scalise was shot.

Then, that would contradict Dan Harder's statement.

Also, he would be directly behind the first base dugout and not in "direct line of fire," at all, given the gunman's location was behind the third base dugout when he started firing and when Scalise was shot.

***

ETA: All of this was discussed earlier in the thread. If I am going too fast for you, go back and read through it.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

No go back and look at your map of the field. There is a gap between the dug outs and the backstop behind home plate. You can draw a direct line from the end of the third base dug out where you have circled showing the shooter to that gap. That would also be shooting directly toward the capital police SUV from that position. Just because they say "behind the dugout" does not mean directly behind it. In fact I think the pictures you posted earlier showing the SUV's show the location of where Mika was at. Look at all the orange cones and medical equipment on the ground by the two SUV's that would indicate where EMT's were working on people who were wounded and again just because thats where they were down does not mean thats where they were actually shot. One of the links you posted has the only account of someone talking to Mika as they were leaving the field let me go back and see who that was.


Edit,
Here is Johnson saying as he left the field Mika was entering.

Johnson: The last thing I did before I walked off the field and grabbed my bag was to fist-bump Steve Scalise. He was standing over there by home plate getting ready to take his round of batting practice. And as he always does: “See you later.” And the last person I spoke to was Matt Mika. As I was walking out of the gate, he was walking in. He said, “You’re leaving early, Mr. Johnson, you must have an early morning meeting.” I said, “Yeah, I do, I’ve got to cut out a little early.”

So this would have been prior to the shooting, but it shows that Mika was on the field and entering from that open gate. I think thats important because he is the only one who mentions Mika directly. If Johnson left prior to Scalise taking his batting practice then Mika was on the field and most likely playing one of the positions while that batting was taking place. At some point Scalise takes the Second base position and Conway starts to take batting practice. So the question is where is Mika at that point?

I will try and upload some google earth views of the field but you can go to it yourself and scale down to street view. Google actually drove through the parking lot of the ball field so you can get very good views from both sides of the field and see very close to the shooters view form the third base side.

originally posted by: Dragoon01
a reply to: MotherMayEye

No go back and look at your map of the field. There is a gap between the dug outs and the backstop behind home plate. You can draw a direct line from the end of the third base dug out where you have circled showing the shooter to that gap. That would also be shooting directly toward the capital police SUV from that position. Just because they say "behind the dugout" does not mean directly behind it. In fact I think the pictures you posted earlier showing the SUV's show the location of where Mika was at. Look at all the orange cones and medical equipment on the ground by the two SUV's that would indicate where EMT's were working on people who were wounded and again just because thats where they were down does not mean thats where they were actually shot. One of the links you posted has the only account of someone talking to Mika as they were leaving the field let me go back and see who that was.

Dan Harder said he was shot on the field and fell twice, but managed to limp 100 feet out the gate to where he was seen injured.

My question was, how did no one else see that and if they did, why haven't they mentioned him limping past them out the gate and eventually falling. He collapsed at some point outside the dugout. If he was in between the blue shed and SUV, then Conaway never saw him laying there, like he said he did.

And he never got up to the point where you are surmising he may have been shot. Surely he would not pass up three buildings and two vehicles, behind/in which he could take cover, to go to a wide open space and then travel back again.

And there are other questions....like how did he travel so far after being hit?

Which was it? Hit in the back, hit in the chest? Both?

I have others.

The video does not seem to corroborate what many of the witnesses say about interacting with Mika OR what's been said about how Capitol Police officers responded, to be perfectly blunt.

ETA: I don't even see how Mike Conaway saw Griner hit in the ankle from where he was situated!

ETA2: And who were the two people that got OUT of the SUV and ran into the dugout where they would be 'like sitting ducks?' (That's the phrase I think I read over and over.) That really bugs me that they did that.

ETA3: If they saw a break in the shooting to get out of the SUV, why not run far, far away from the scene?It makes no sense that they would run from the SUV and trap themselves onto the field and inside the dugout if the gunman got through the only open gate. There were trees and buildings only seconds away which were much safer cover. It's just so stupid, it can't be believed.

There's nothing describing those people exiting that SUV in any of the witness accounts.

And you never see Dan Harder get INTO that SUV or anyone even get near it that might have jumped into the backseat when the gunman was said to be rounding home base. That's the account Dan Harder gave about his movements during the shooting.

Here's what I see...

I see Mike Conaway give a hand signal to someone behind the light colored shed. Looks like Loudermilk is there, on the ground, since he said he was wearing a bright yellow jersey, black shirt underneath, and still had on a batting helmet. That's is not the side of the shed Loudermilk claimed he was on though.

Then I see some dumb schmuck walk out from behind the blue shed, into the open, and gesture like they are kind of confused...the camera pans away...10ish pistol shots can be heard, then Mike Conaway stands up like it's all over. But it's not.

The gunman hasn't been downed yet. I also think I see three officers (two in black suits and one in a tan uniform) come from in front of and behind the blue shed, at that point. Thus far, in the video, I saw no one else that looks like an officer or looks like they have a weapon drawn.

The three *officers* all seem to gather at the place where the poor schmuck was last seen in the video. And, Conaway and one of the guys that exited the SUV come out and start yelling "Shoot him," and it's so kind of cringey, IMO.

originally posted by: Dragoon01
Johnson: The last thing I did before I walked off the field and grabbed my bag was to fist-bump Steve Scalise. He was standing over there by home plate getting ready to take his round of batting practice. And as he always does: “See you later.” And the last person I spoke to was Matt Mika. As I was walking out of the gate, he was walking in. He said, “You’re leaving early, Mr. Johnson, you must have an early morning meeting.” I said, “Yeah, I do, I’ve got to cut out a little early.”

So this would have been prior to the shooting, but it shows that Mika was on the field and entering from that open gate. I think thats important because he is the only one who mentions Mika directly. If Johnson left prior to Scalise taking his batting practice then Mika was on the field and most likely playing one of the positions while that batting was taking place. At some point Scalise takes the Second base position and Conway starts to take batting practice. So the question is where is Mika at that point?

I read this, too, at Politico Magazine, I believe. And I considered it.

BUT, consider that the gate is right by the first base dugout, and it was towards the end of practice, then clearly it shows that Mika traveled in and out of the gate during practice. That's it.

That was the most I could make of that comment.

When I read that comment, I tried to figure out if Mika was on the field when the shooting started but I could not conclude that from that isolated statement. You can't either.

The info on where Mika was situated was nonexistent until 14+hours after the shooting when the NYPost slipped in an update from Dan Harder (no explanation on that), who announces that 'hey, I was there and Mika was shot on the field, fell twice, and then limped 100 feet 'to safety.'

That is the ONLY statement I have read that can be concluded to mean Matt Mika was shot while on the field. And it came late and in the form of a buried 'update' to a NYPost article that was 14 hours old.

I agree that we cant conclude for sure where Mika was from Johnsons statement.
Its just something to consider.
With regards to Harder. I dont know what to make of his statements, its possible that he was not completely accurate in his recounting of events.
At any rate here is a view from behind home plate looking up the first base side




And this is the view from behind the third base side. There is a small white line in this photo thats a path I added on GE to show a possible route of the shooter.




This is the view from behind first base showing the dugout and small shed about center.
The Blue shed is well to the left the area in the center would be where the SUV's were parked but not in the lot directly in front of the camera. Closer to the field.
Far to the right is the block Bathroom that Barry Loudermilk says that people were running to for cover.

Here is another view of the site.
The position I have for Mika is probably not exactly accurate but you can clearly see that from the Shooters first position he could have hit anyone on that side of the field.



To the far right of this photo where the two roads connect is where the video posted here was shot from.
When you see these images its a lot more wide open than it looks from that video.


Here is another view closer to what we see in the photos of the SUV's. I think we can see the big oak tree by the white shed that the congressmen were gathering near before heading to the block bathhouse.

originally posted by: Dragoon01
Here is another view of the site.
The position I have for Mika is probably not exactly accurate but you can clearly see that from the Shooters first position he could have hit anyone on that side of the field.

SUV 1 is much closer to SUV 2. You can see a portion of the front tire of SVU 2 on the right side of this photo:



SUV 1 is also on the opposite side of the light pole from where you have it.

originally posted by: Dragoon01
This is the view from behind first base showing the dugout and small shed about center.
The Blue shed is well to the left the area in the center would be where the SUV's were parked but not in the lot directly in front of the camera. Closer to the field.
Far to the right is the block Bathroom that Barry Loudermilk says that people were running to for cover.

This is the photo that surprises me.

The 'blue shed' is, indeed, MUCH further down from where I imagined it was.

The person who steps out from behind the blue shed looks unarmed. If I had to guess...I would say he is wearing a dark blue shirt and dark long shorts or pants. Capitol/Alexandria police officers seem to run to the precise spot that man was standing after the series of pistol shots I mentioned earlier in the thread.

The shooter who was seen 'down' was described as wearing a blue shirt and shorts.

This is a very interesting pic that causes me to reassess the video.

I'll get back to you after I do that...

Yes I agree.
Also I went back and watched the video very closely. At about 1:13 to about 1:25 you can see the camera focused on the tan shed and you can actually see a person behind that oak tree and you can see the rear end of the SUV with someone opening up the lift gate to get something out of the back.

The people behind the shed are looking in the direction of the SUV.

a reply to: Dragoon01

I see it. There is some activity in that area, the back door is up, it looks like there is a Capitol Police officer by that tree. Which is not where you would expect any of them to be according to the witness statements.