Dutch Ban Own Flag in Schools to Appease Muslim Immigrants

On being PC:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Conservatives may be in charge, but check the locale of most of this movement: California. San Fransisco is not exactly a place I would lable conservative, but I would lable them loud, obnoxious, and "holier than thou".

The PC debate tactic is agree with me or I'll call you a hate monger, really loudly, and everyone will believe me. And to date, most people do...

Conservatives may be in charge, but check the locale of most of this movement: California. San Fransisco is not exactly a place I would lable conservative, but I would lable them loud, obnoxious, and "holier than thou".

The PC debate tactic is agree with me or I'll call you a hate monger, really loudly, and everyone will believe me. And to date, most people do...

Exactly.

But I would like people to make the distinction that being a "liberal" doesn't mean you are automatically PC.

Myself and my friends are about as liberal as you could get, but we can but laugh at some of the measures that the PC crowd try to force through, they are insane and ill thought out attempts at making themselves feel better about having done something to make perceived injuctices history.

In reality, the just piss people off from across the Political spectrum and do little in solving any problems at all, and in all likelyhood, actually add to them.

[edit on 6/2/05 by stumason]

More incrementalism... You folks in Europe, more and more your own liberal and socialist values are going to be used against you by people who, though they don't believe in those values, know that you do and will tie your hands by twisting your intent and corrupting your purposes.

You (and probably us in America too) are a bunch of boiling frogs.

In the U.S. it's mainly the secular progressives that are behind such PC mentality and are willing to throw away symbols of religion, nationality, patriotism, etc. on the basis that they could offend even the smallest minority of people. Liberals can be traditionalists who still are somewhat conservative about these time honored symbols of our society.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
More incrementalism... You folks in Europe, more and more your own liberal and socialist values are going to be used against you by people who, though they don't believe in those values, know that you do and will tie your hands by twisting your intent and corrupting your purposes.

You (and probably us in America too) are a bunch of boiling frogs.

This is how the terrorists are fighting us in Iraq, as well. From personal accounts and military press releases that never make it to the main stream media, I've found this out. The terrorists attack and wound (or try to) Iraqi civilians, knowing that we're going to try to save their lives and ambush us.

An example:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

They use our values against us, then cry out saying we're violating our values. Why do we not only fall for this, but support it through our media?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Liberalism prevails...

opposing sides of thought will never understand eachother will they?

[edit on 6-2-2005 by drfunk]

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Talk about hypocracy.

You vote Vagabond for above for saying our nation is headed the same direction that the Dutch did. Did you stop to consider that Conservativs are running America? So So if America IS headed that way, it is because of the conservatives ruling this country.

Stop harassing my constituents, this is disenfranchisement! RECOUNT! lol.

There is a simple reason for the problem that Madman is running into. Both parties are on the same side, they just advance different aspects of the same platform. By the end of Bush's second term Republicans will have been in power for 20 of the last 28 years, yet they haven't dismantled the welfare state or stopped immigration.
They believe in that stuff just as much as the liberals do, because it's ultimately good for big business as I explained.

The two parties each advance a part of a combined agenda and they rarely make a serious effort to undo eachothers work.
The Republicans are Nationalists. The Democrats are Socialists.
The American political system is National Socialist. Nazis, a breed of fascists.
Mussolini said Fascism should be called Corporatism because it is the merging of business and political powers and interests.
Is that or is that not a dead-right explanation of what is happening in America these days?

A Rotterdam film festival has canceled Theo Van Gogh's film documenting abuse against women due to "security concerns":

ROTTERDAM, NETHERLANDS — Citing security concerns, organizers of the Rotterdam Film Festival called off Sunday’s screening of a film by slain Dutch moviemaker Theo van Gogh that has outraged some Muslims.

A suspected Islamic extremist allegedly shot and stabbed van Gogh in November after the release of the film, “Submission,” which criticizes treatment of women under Islam.

Sunday’s decision drew criticism from some directors and artists at the festival, who argued that limiting free expression was giving in to terrorists.

Chicago Tribune (registration required)

But is screening some Muslim-produced anti-Western films:

ROTTERDAM, February 7 (IslamOnline.net) — Two European films shown at the 34th Rotterdam international film festival caused quite a stir among cinema critics and the audience.

Reason? Presenting anti-western attacks by extremists as a retaliation for the mounting hate and persecution campaigns targeting Muslims in the West in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.

An Arab film critic hailed the two movies as “a way more effective than bullets to expose the unjust practices” perpetrated by some Western governments against their Muslim communities.

Islam Online

Well it had to happen some time.

people being ashamed of their country, the very home that gives them shelter and safety.
If you are ashamed of the flag that flies above your countries buildings, then the answer is simple.

Leave, and never go back.

For if you are ashamed of your country, it may just be that its ashamed of you also.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
"Thou shalt not kill"
The statement was considered anti-Muslim and racist

This seems very logical judging the mentality of todays liberal leaders!

EDIT: Look at the group of people the sign was directed at! It's in their doctrine to kill so it makes all the sense in the world for someone to say that it is anti-Muslim!

[edit on 9/2/05 by Intelearthling]

I know that the Dutch are very friendly and that they tolerate all kinds of people, but banning their own flag? Come on.

What is next? They are going to ban their national color of Orange?

Surf

Just to take a slightly different stance (and I do think banning your own flag is ludicrous), IF the flag, the symbol, was co-opted by anti-muslim radicals, and it was such that the muslims suffered under punks wearing and sporting the flag, then, could not the flag become, in addition to teh flag, a symbol of racism and anit-muslim, er, ism? Imean, looking at some of the photos of 'army camo' clad punks with dutch flags on their shoulders, they kind of do look like nasty little bastards.

Someone else mentioned black doc martins with red laces. This is something racist skinheads do.

Recall, also, that the swastika, in spite of being a peaceful symbol of hinduism, and existing in europe before the nazis and recognized by everyone, was co-opted by the nazis, and became a symbol of hate, such that there is serious talk of banning it in europe.

Of course, I wouldn't say that the dutch flag is anywhere nearly as powerfully reviled as the swatsika. Heck, I've not been following the tyhread too closely, but have any muslims really come out and said that they are really offended by it, or rather, have large numbers done this?

On the other hand, if racist kkk wackos were parading the american flag and trying to co-opt it, I expect that americans would whip out their flags of their own and hold on to the symbolism, ie not let it be co-opted. SO if racist punks in the netherlands are the only ones sporting the tri colour, maybe the other Dutch need to start proudly wearing it and re-assert that its a flag of a peaceful, tolerant nation and an open society.

Originally posted by Nygdan
On the other hand, if racist kkk wackos were parading the american flag and trying to co-opt it, I expect that americans would whip out their flags of their own and hold on to the symbolism, ie not let it be co-opted. SO if racist punks in the netherlands are the only ones sporting the tri colour, maybe the other Dutch need to start proudly wearing it and re-assert that its a flag of a peaceful, tolerant nation and an open society.

This is an outstanding point you make. They need to preserve their flag, not only against being banned as a symbol of hate but from being used as a symbol of hate.
Now here is the catch- that hate in some cases could be a backlash to things that Dutch culture finds morally reprehensible, which would explain why the flag is becoming a symbol of this. The fact that "thou shall not kill" was considered anti-muslim falls under exactly the same catagory; it's a good thing which became "anti-muslim" because it is against something that Muslims have been doing.
Adherents to Islam can only be accepted in the West if they can adopt Western values, especially respect for the rights and freedom of women. Let's suppose somebody in my community did some of the things certain parts of Arab/Muslim culture have done. What if somebody in my community beat, abused, and sometimes killed women for disobedience and killed people who spoke against that practice? I think I'd put on one of my USMC T-shirts and go whip the hell out of the offenders. USMC would be anti-whoever then, because whipped that person because they lacked honor and integrity, which are highly valued by the USMC.

So if you see where I'm going with this, there is a fine line. You want to show yourself as a good and tollerant nation, but you don't want to be a nation which tollerates grevious wrongs simply because they are endorsed by a minority culture.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by Nygdan
On the other hand, if racist kkk wackos were parading the american flag and trying to co-opt it, I expect that americans would whip out their flags of their own and hold on to the symbolism, ie not let it be co-opted. SO if racist punks in the netherlands are the only ones sporting the tri colour, maybe the other Dutch need to start proudly wearing it and re-assert that its a flag of a peaceful, tolerant nation and an open society.

This is an outstanding point you make.

I second that, an excellent point indeed. This is the situation in the UK and has been for some times. I have spoke with friends about this. Noticably when images of the US appear of the news there is nearly always a flag displayed somewhere.

Here is the UK is it rare indeed to see either the Union Jack or, in England, the Cross of St. George. It is not uncommon at all to see the Cross of St. Andrew being proudly displayed by the many Scot's who reside down here or the Red Dragon of Wales, both flags do not have the same stigma attached although the Red Dragon does have a certain anti-English air about it, it does seem that such sentiment is allowed in England itself. The Union Jack and Cross of St. George (my personal favourite) however have been hijacked by extremists and to display them would lead many to immediately pass a judgement that should rightly be offensive to many.

I wonder if these feelings of almost shame of your nations flag that have been ingrained into the English and now it seems rears it's head in Holland is a purposeful action to aid with the transition towards a truly unified Europe.

I also wonder of those who porposed and passed this passed this ban, how many were Muslims or immigrants who understood from that perspective, and perhaps lastly what has happened to the use of common sense in society?

Jack

I find it gratifying to see a few fellow Brits feel the same way I do. I've been saying for years that if racist thugs have taken our flag(s) as their bigoted symbol of choice, then its high time we took it back because it was never theirs to take in the first place. Bravo!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
More incrementalism... You folks in Europe, more and more your own liberal and socialist values are going to be used against you by people who, though they don't believe in those values, know that you do and will tie your hands by twisting your intent and corrupting your purposes.

You (and probably us in America too) are a bunch of boiling frogs.

I agrre with what your saying AS, I really do. But what I would say, is that although I lost all faith in our (UK) politicians/government many years ago, I still have great faith the good old British public (see above). And it reminds me of a statement I read on another forum a few months ago, and I think it maybe apt to repeat here. It went along the lines of 'Us Brits are an affable bunch of chaps, but if you back us into a corner, we'll bite your nose off'! Theres only so much we can take before we hit back, as many have found out

Originally posted by The Vagabond
because it is against something that Muslims have been doing.

What? No its became anto-muslim because it was selectively applied only to muslims, and muslims innocent of killing at that. The Dutch are certainly killers.

I think I'd put on one of my USMC T-shirts and go whip the hell out of the offenders.

Sure, but those are not requirements of being a muslim. Muslims, infact, don't need to do anything to 'westernize', except, say, speak the language of the country they are in and live by its laws.


USMC would be anti-whoever then, because whipped that person because they lacked honor and integrity, which are highly valued by the USMC.

but you don't want to be a nation which tollerates grevious wrongs simply because they are endorsed by a minority culture.

All the dutch need to do is enforce their own laws. Anti-mulism vigilantes, who attack muslims when they do wrong but not christians when they do wrong, are motivated by hatred of muslims. They are also breaking the law and should be punished within it. A standard of western law is equality before it. Therefore vigilantes can't apply justice or enforce the law, and the government has to equally crack down on all law breakers.

So a dutchman who slaps a tri colour on his shoulder and goes out 'moslem stompon'" is doing exactly what needs to be stopped. They are making the dutch flag a symbol of hate, just as, say, the soviets made two farm tools in particular a symbol of oppression and tyranny. Or just as mussolini made the fasces a symbol of tyranny, whereas it was origianlly a symbol of freedom from tyranny.

jak
Here is the UK is it rare indeed to see either the Union Jack or, in England, the Cross of St. George

Indeed, I've sometimes heard of the very idea of 'english' as being racist, racist over the scots and welsh, such that if you refer to GB as 'england' your some sort of imperialist.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by Nygdan]

The story told in the OP has been going on a few decades now here in the Netherlands. Going to dutch high school in the mid 90's myself I have experienced this. And with the years it seems to become worse.