Otto Warmbier Should Have Been Brought Home That Same Day

a reply to: Grambler

It deosn't matter what I think.

The fact is Obama admin told Ottos family to stay quiet and they would take care of it. The fact is Ottos dad said they barely talked to him, and didn't seem to do much. The fact is he said the Trump people encouraged him to speak, and kept in contact with him, and he feels they did everything they could to get his kid back.

I know he was grieving and that could alter his perception, but do you have any reason to doubt his claims?

Enough of a reason to criticize Trump like you are in this thread?

No, in fact, I don't doubt that he's being completely candid. I'm pretty sure I've said that already but if not, I have now. I have absolutely nothing disparaging to say about the family or the comments the father has made.

But that's still his perception of what was happening. I don't believe that not keeping a low profile would have helped. In fact, depending on the circumstances, there's always a risk of doing more harm than good. This isn't a Western nation that folds under shame over their human rights violations.

As I said, I think the biggest factor in his release was probably his condition. It's possible that had he not been in the state he was, that he might have been released earlier. All you have to do is look at the history of detentions and releases under the Obama administration. They had successes.

Out of the last 16 Americans detained by the UK, only two were held longer than Warmbier. One of them was Kenneth Bae, who received the most attention in the media of ALL of the detainees. The other is Kim Dong Chul, who is still being held but he unlike the rest, he was charged with espionage.

I don't see how it's unreasonable to speculate that had he not been in the state he was, the North Koreans might have released him sooner — based on recent precedent — and furthermore, that once his condition became known and it was clear he wasn't going to recover, the North Koreans were compelled to release him.

Enough of a reason to criticize Trump like you are in this thread?

Do you think Trump was justified in blaming the Obama administration for the death of Otto Warmbier? Was he at all reasonable when he implied that through some action, the Obama administration should have gotten him home the very same day he was detained despite the fact that his own administration hasn't managed that feat for the two Americans currently detained?

It would have been unseemly, preposterous grandstanding if the criticism had been reasonable but how was what he said even a fair criticism?

a reply to: Grambler

He deserved his death because he supposedly took that poster.

The odds of dying in a US jail before even going to trial are pretty good, even better after conviction.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Beyond words that you would use the death of the young man who did nothing to warrant the sentence imposed by North Korea....

I used to appreciate your thoughts on what was happening in the chaos...

No more... you have made clear what you are really doing..

It's beyond crossing the lines of decency, and quest for truth...

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Grambler

Can you please cite a source confirming that Otto Warmbier denied taking the poster?

Warmbier was tried and convicted for the theft of the propaganda banner from a restricted area of the hotel. His trial included his confession, CCTV footage, fingerprint evidence, and witness testimony.

en.wikipedia.org...

Well here is his dad saying it was a lie.

WARMBIER: North Korea has proven they are not nature's noble men. Again, do you believe my son needed a used car? Do you believe -- he's not even a member of the church that he was accused of stealing a banner from. So, again, I don't really -- we are not burdened with whatever North Korea says or does any longer, the Warmbier family is not.

archives.cnn.com...

Surprisingly, the North Koreans didn't leave Otto speak to the media, so we only have his confession.

Here is a lawyer saying that Otto was probably innocent because NK kidnaps students for politicaal reasons.

Local attorney David Benowitz called the charges bogus.

“This is a dictatorship using someone, a student, I`m sure, nothing to do with anything illegal as a political pawn,” Benowitz explained. “This is what north Korea does. They kidnap students.'

wtkr.com...

a reply to: theantediluvian

This is what every president does. They say they would have done things better.

I dont know if Trump would have had more success.

I know that Ottos dad feels that way. I know that man personally dealt with both administrations, and he felt even before he got his son back that Trumps was doing more.

a reply to: Grambler


I'm not surprised that his father doesn't believe the story. I'm sure he's distraught and angry. I have no idea what the truth is. But, the kid apparently confessed, there was at least one witness at his trial, a security tape and finger prints. I don't know what you think the Obama Administration's State Department was supposed to do! Or, how this was their fault!

You'd think if North Korea was going to set up an American, they could do better than shoplifting a poster as the crime.

The young man's death and the tragedy surrounding it is heart breaking, but for Trump to blame Obama for the kid's death, and take diplomatic credit for getting his dying body home is low and disgraceful, even for Trump!

originally posted by: TerminalVelocity
a reply to: theantediluvian

Yah, I will.

Sorry, but all your political threads show the truth:

You're a bottom feeder.

You do this with ever tragedy you can get your hands on and try to make political points over it.

Yellow journalism at it's finest.

Well, at least you put it in the right forum....where all other muckrakers belong.....

If you have to resort to personal insults/ad-homs instead of offering counter arguments, you're really only inflating your own hug box bubble.

a reply to: JacKatMtn

Why don't you explain to me how I'm exploiting the death of Otto Warmbier exactly? Perhaps you can persuade me. As I see it, I have been nothing but respectful. The only thing that I have taken issue with is President Trump casting blame on the previously adminstration unfairly.

Do you think his criticism was fair? Do you think it's fair for him to imply that the Obama administration is responsible in some way for the death of Otto Warmbier based on some irrational standard that his own administration hasn't met?

It's sad that I keep getting hit with reflexive feigned outrage. I'm also wondering where you lot are when the death of another young man, Seth Rich, is being exploited by your peers, the social media trolls who pump up the mob, political whores like Gingrich, attention whores like Hannity and Kim Dotcom, the right-wing MSM, the fringe right-wing media, Julian Assange, etc.

Crickets from the hypocrites. (hypocrickets?)

a reply to: theantediluvian

You just can't help yourself can you...


Carry on.....

a reply to: JacKatMtn

Have you really drawn a line that you will not cross, even for the truth?

a reply to: theantediluvian

Yeah, I'm not getting it either. Trump went and politicized this entire thing, making it look like he'd somehow be the savior or something, using the man's death in a disgusting attempt to prop up/boost his own image.

I found it entirely distasteful and below his station.

I think learning about some of the actual facts about how many people were released by N. Korea under Obama gives the ATS membership a bit more perspective...

Something that it is, apparently, sorely lacking around here these days.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: theantediluvian

This is what every president does. They say they would have done things better.

I dont know if Trump would have had more success.

I know that Ottos dad feels that way. I know that man personally dealt with both administrations, and he felt even before he got his son back that Trumps was doing more.

The issue I took wasn't that he blew his own horn. What I took issue with is that he clearly placed blame for the death of Otto Warmbier on the Obama admin. I don't think that's what presidents should do or have done (at least in recent memory) in a time like that — not at all.

Do you think that was appropriate for him to do?

I appreciate that's how Mr. Warmbier feels. I honestly do. I'm not disputing his account, I'm not questioning his feelings or anything of the sort. That doesn't mean that his perception was correct though does it? It could be that the North Koreans were being particularly resistant because of Otto Warmbier's condition. They could have been stringing the Obama administration along in the hopes that he would recover. Another possibility is that whoever they were dealing with (I presume at the State Dept) just wasn't good at keeping them feeling like progress was being made — but then again, maybe that's because no progress was being made and maybe his condition had something to do with that.

a reply to: JacKatMtn

I can't help myself what? I don't understand why I'm getting so much resistance here.

Do you think it was appropriate for President Trump to blame the previous administration for the death of Otto Warmbier. If so, why? In not, why are you accusing me of exploiting this young man's death instead of President Trump?

a reply to: Grambler

True. Their son could have died had they not taken Obamas advice. Oh wait...

I missed this earlier.

That's easily said with the benefit of hindsight. When giving advice about things that haven't happened, what they have to go on is past experience and probabilities.

originally posted by: Christosterone
a reply to: theantediluvian

-Chris

You pic is wrong..it should be Bush than saying thanks Trump.

That idiot is the worst leader ever.

I don't see how this couldn't have unfolded any other way than the way it did. And it's NOT Trump's hurrah, he got tossed NK's prisoner version of sloppy seconds after they f#ed the kid up worse than they could medically care for long-term. If he was able-bodied & alive, he'd still be over there & you all know it.

What Obama told his parents was sound, STFU & don't FIU for the people doing the talking. Rule Numero Uno, I'd imagine. How many foreigners, not just Americans, are still in custody in NK? Wouldn't it be a little arrogant, dismissive and callous to think your kid is more special than all the rest locked up in the prison hellholes, to blab about it like a media ho & to risk worse happening to all of them? No. No single person is worth potentially risking all the rest, they've all got loved ones waiting for them, too. Not just Otto's folks.

Obama's zip it policy, IMO, is best. Now that NK has a buttload of media attention from this, they'll play nice for a while. But I bet you my left teet after the uproar dies down, a lot of guilt-by-allies-association punishments are dealt out to those unlucky ones remaining. The Americans remaining, I bet end up like Otto.

a reply to: theantediluvian


If Trump blamed Obama, then Trump had better launch a rescue mission for the 3 remaining Americans ASAP..or he'll be labeled a hypocrite in short order.

Trump blaming Obama, like Obama blamed Bush and Hillary blaming everyone else. More at 11.


Psst, your bias is showing again.

originally posted by: carewemust
If Trump blamed Obama, then Trump had better launch a rescue mission for the 3 remaining Americans ASAP..or he'll be labeled a hypocrite in short order.

Pretty much the TL;DR version of the OP.

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Grambler

But classy of you to blame this kid for his own death!

So just who else is responsible? If the idiot hadn't committed the crime then he wouldn't have gotten locked up. It's funny how you people scream personal responsibility until it's time for a person to be held responsible then it's somebody elses fault.

Personal responsibility is only for poor people on wellfare.


Anyway Trumptards are going to use this to beat there chests and demand violence its what they do........