The Tesla Giga Factory, and the overlooked realities.

The Tesla Giga Factory, if operating to design capacity, will output 35GWh of batteries annually. Current studies indicate that approximately 1/3 of it's necessary energy supply will come from nearby wind farms and solar roof panels. That's an admirable start to things. The physical plant will also house a Panasonic production facility producing batteries as well. Tesla opted not to connect to the two large natural gas lines made available for energy needs, instead drawing the remaining 2/3 of their requirements from the commercial electrical grid. This diverts, but not eliminates, the carbon footprint of the electricity, since the stations providing that power use natural gas generators, with peak demand shortages met by diesel-powered secondary units.
Still, gas is cleaner than coal or fuel oils. So still proactive enough, I suppose.

Being that water is a fairly precious resource in Nevada, the factory will also use processed and filtered wastewater from sewage treatment to meet some of its non-potable supply needs. This is also an insightful and responsible design factor. Drinking water and other potable needs will be fulfilled from municipal drinking sources, of course.

The lithium for their batteries is sourced from Silver Peak, which is the home of the only current lithium extraction facility in the U.S. This supply is in the form of a mineral-rich dry lake bed. Unlike traditional methods, which allow a slow natural evaporation to remove water from lithium extraction processes, Tesla processes the water-laden lithium extract to dry it in hours, instead of months. I have been unable to determine the fate of the waste water and other products from this industrial method.

So far, this all seems rather wonderful. The massive take exemptions and cuts Nevada used to secure the project may sour some people towards the idea, but that's how any industry is enticed to a particular state. I personally have no problems with that.

But here's where it gets tricky. 35GWh of energy in batteries out the door. Possibly to be increased to 50GWh. These are all Li Ion rechargeable cells housed in battery packs. With regular use, each of the battery packs will require recharging at least every 2-3 days. Tesla has made a large push to entice private businesses to partner with them to offer Tesla Charging Stations. I'm not certain if this will be a service that the vehicle owners will pay for directly, or if the increased electricity costs will be offset by the fact that someone using a station will likely spend several hours and hopefully several dollars there while charging.

But that is the underlying issue. These miraculous electric vehicles will still require regular and frequent charging, and the vast majority of the electrical supply for that will come from the municipal grids supplying the vehicle's current location. Despite the fact that clean and/or renewable energy sources are frequently discussed in the news and elsewhere, it seems to me that an unnerving number of people either have no idea or pay no attention to where their electricity comes from or how it's produced. You just plug into the socket, and it's there. And they send you a bill for it every 30 days. But just blindly assuming that an electric vehicle makes one carbon neutral or eliminates the entirety of their old internal combustion vehicle's footprint is an ill-informed fantasy.

The majority of the U.S. energy grid is still powered by fossil fuels and Nuclear. Personally, I think Nuclear would be by far the best option if a few industry regulations were changed or repealed, but that's beside the point I'm working toward here.

And besides electricity, that shiny new battery pack and the vehicle it is installed in also rely heavily on plastics and other synthetic materials and petroleum lubricants. Does all of this make a new Tesla a bad vehicle? Absolutely not. But does it make it an environmental Deus ex Machina? Also, absolutely not.

My point is this: objective understanding of these factors before buying one makes for a far better human being than buying one for empty virtue signalling.

What an absolutely excellent rundown of the plant and issues coupled with a ridiculous conclusion. We are NEVER going to be carbon neutral: NEVER, so get over it. It's impossible to reach that standard, not that we ought to in the first place. But this is a HUGE step in the right direction.

a reply to: pfishy

You do a great job of explaining the reality of the situation, but you should link your studies that show the development plans of tesla now in conjuction with solar city, and the market availability of cheap efficient solar for grid tie or stand alone functionality.

Your numbers from capacity most likely are not correlating to tesla's vision for energy expansion and artifact availability to solve consumer pricing issues.

You should probably include the gamble he is taking with solar city, but the solution base for your very criticism.

Also explain what the industry standard would be in sector in contrast to one another.


And I possibly the amount of under cover sabotage that goes on when people make waves in established industry, the ghost writers from competition for economic reviews etc. You have to expect a certain amount of smear for a person like musk. Not that you are not correct but the whole story should be told.

a reply to: pfishy

But that is the underlying issue. These miraculous electric vehicles will still require regular and frequent charging, and the vast majority of the electrical supply for that will come from the municipal grids supplying the vehicle's current location.

I see where you are coming from, but the thing is that regular combustion engines are somewhere between laughably and horribly ineffective.

Power produced on even the dirtiest of dirty coal powered plants are STILL less polluting than a combustion engine.

So, there.

The real underlying is, what you also mention, the batteries. Some nasty stuff is used in the production of those. I am not sure how you (fairly) measure that against the fossil fuel savings though.

originally posted by: schuyler
What an absolutely excellent rundown of the plant and issues coupled with a ridiculous conclusion. We are NEVER going to be carbon neutral: NEVER, so get over it. It's impossible to reach that standard, not that we ought to in the first place. But this is a HUGE step in the right direction.

For many reasons. I don't use a screw driver to lay a deck. That would take me a month. I use the lightest most powerful and efficient machine to do it.

The auto and energy industry severely stunted the ability to use better efficiency models from physic and engineering development because of special interests. There is no way around it. Futurists and crackpots like bucky fuller were developing auto ideas with aero space after world War 2. In his mind we should transfer the jobs from aerospace maufacturing after the war demand into auto. Hundreds of people like this were canned because the establishment had created an oligarchy model in their field rather than a free market.

a reply to: schuyler

I'm not trying to advocate for carbon neutrality. Just for informed decisions over incorrect gestures and egotism.

a reply to: luthier

No, the don't reflect future plans, as I didn't come across solid estimates for them. And I'm not suggesting that using power from the grid is a problem. Just a reality. It's more of a point against hollow gestures and superiority complexes than it is the overall greenness of the plant.

a reply to: DupontDeux

I'm not saying that Tesla is doing anything wrong, or trying to prop up the status quo as better than their vehicles. I'm not actually even arguing for or against fossil fuels or renewable energy. I'm just trying to lay out the facts, as I was able to determine, of this plant and the resulting energy requirements of their products.
Point being, I just dislike the false piety some people seem to adopt because the drive an EV.

a reply to: luthier

Yeah, the game is rigged. No arguments there.

Wonder if he will be selling 18650s ... i know tesla was useing sony vtc 4s or 5s or make his cars id love to see some 100 amp 18650s

a reply to: markovian

From what I read, the Panasonic facility is producing those, but the cell form factor for the Tesla packs is 21750
They will be manufacturing their own cells, instead of purchasing them from 3rd party companies.

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: luthier

Yeah, the game is rigged. No arguments there.

It's hard to tell what your point is here.

Elon Musk from where I stand had some brass ones and actually is producing artifacts that far exceed the current model.

Your trying to use suggestions from studies who could be fused and engineered from competitors embedded in the journalist and scientific journal communities.

You should in fact show what tesla claims they will operate at in terms of energy what they say they will produce vs this undeclared study. Are you including telsa's energy expansion and phase planning?

I serious doubt you are. You can't go on what tesla or articles in economics media produce. You have to look at it all and scrutinize.

If solar city can produce a cost effective solar shingle with the same repair and durability as asphalt, even close we are talking a potential major stress reduction in summer power needs. While also localizing power for emergency situations..

a reply to: luthier

As far as I can tell, at original design capacity, the percentages and rates are Tesla's numbers. I sourced a lot of this from Wikipedia and a few Tesla articles. As far I recall, linking to Wikipedia is frowned upon in ATS forums, so I didn't. But everything I mentioned is from either there or Tesla articles/webpages/quotes.

a reply to: luthier

Oh, and my overarching point was that simply purchasing an electric vehicle does not turn self-righteous dullards into Eco-Saints. Not accusing anyone around here of fitting that bill, but it is an accurate description of certain uninformed mindsets on the topic.

a reply to: pfishy

Like it or not, we live at the dawn of the electric car use. Germany has a plan to allow ONLY electric cars to be sold there after 2030 and they're urging the entire EU, (whats left of it) to do the same. California is considering the same type legislation.

I've researched it quite a bit after I found out the Chevy Bolt can travel up to 190 miles on a charge. You can see comparisons at: www.caranddriver.com...

My research indicates that they'll phase in EVs slowly and as they do, the price will come down. In the "progressive" states and countries they'll transition by way of restricting certain roadways and inner loop city areas to "electric" only vehicles to push adoption. Gasoline powered vehicles will continue to be made and many may adopt a "City-EV/Country-Gas ownership model for a bit.

All this works well into the Agenda 21/Agenda 2020 program whereby all "human" footprint will be moved out of the rural areas into the urban corridors high occupancy tenement housing.

I guess it doesn't matter really; most millennias and their descendants lack the imagination or the skills necessary to leave their cities anyway.

a reply to: TonyS

I don't mind electric vehicles one bit. I also still like my dino-burning gasoline engine vehicle. But I do hope that the Agenda 21 correlation is mistaken.

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: luthier

As far as I can tell, at original design capacity, the percentages and rates are Tesla's numbers. I sourced a lot of this from Wikipedia and a few Tesla articles. As far I recall, linking to Wikipedia is frowned upon in ATS forums, so I didn't. But everything I mentioned is from either there or Tesla articles/webpages/quotes.

So can you show these tesla articles or are they secret?

Pretty sure tesla, the company, is not saying.they will use 1/3 renewable energy so maybe you should show what the company says vs the reality of the operating logistics.

Also don't know why your obsessing on what makes someone righteous.

Is the electric ac motor more efficient? Can we create higher power efficiency and pollution Co troll at power plants then combustion engines?

Again I don't use a screw driver to lay a deck I use a light weight lithium ion 18 volt drill, it charges very fast and has a lot more power than the earlier cordless drills.

Thank god their are no screw driver lobbyists or I would be using a screw driver to lay my deck.

You again ignore the solar city aspect here where musk is providing an artifact based solution that is targeted at cost effective.

Really this op was to make judgments on why people are self righteous. The technical aspects you left unsupported. They could be entirely made up numbers cherry picked to prove a point that doesn't exist. It's really hard to tell when you don't include these studies you reference or make vague references to wiki.

Usually people like musk are regarded as incredible inovative businessmen, since it's green energy and space travel I guess that ruffles to many established gods hold on those markets to celebrate the innovations.

a reply to: luthier

The 1/3 was based on initial grid configuration and availability when it came online. And you're still missing my point entirely. I said nothing disparaging about the factory or Musk. I quite admire him, actually. I watch every SpaceX launch I can. He's a hero of mine.
But honestly, I'm fairly positive I've explained the point of my post to you already, so go ahead and assume whatever you wish about the point I was trying to make.

a reply to: pfishy

So the 1/3 is not accurate? It certainly is not tesla's estimate.

And you made a whole post to show how people who buy green energy are selfish egotists?

It's really very difficult to tell what your actual reasoning is.

You made an entire thread to try and explain things I personally feel are very overstated and possibly inaccurate. I asked you to explain this and allow sourcing and you are balking at that.

Yes it's fun to make fun of liberals,...I guess, or elite that feel good buying green tech.

Personally I find it very hard to understand what actual purpose this thread has other than to "school" those who may not understand that tomorrow we are not going to be fossil fuel free.

No kidding. But we are going to run out of plastic if we keep burning it up for unnecessary transportation fuel.


The truth of the matter is musk had the balls to put his capital and investors money on the line in two industries using dinosaur models. Even sued to be able to compete fairly.

The man is the perfect example of shut up and do something. I do t know you need a thread saying well slow down its not really all that great.


I am pretty sure Elon knows that 1/3 would not constitute most of the power. The roof panels alone are supposed to be 70 mgw. It has a closed loop water system and efficient heating from drawing battery heat. It's a pretty amazing factory and certainly a huge step forward.

a reply to: pfishy

We can only hope, but I see it at work even in my State. Its slow, but its coming.