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Khufu

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posted on Jun, 17 2017 @ 07:17 PM
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Hello


I'm wondering if you could help me
I'm trying to find out how many times
Khufu's name appears in the Great pyramid of Giza
whether its just based on one gang mark
or actual inscriptions ?



Based on a mark in an interior chamber naming the work gang and a reference to fourth dynasty Egyptian Pharaoh Khufu, Egyptologists believe that the pyramid was built as a tomb over a 10 to 20-year period concluding around 2560 BC


en.wikipedia.org...



The attribution of the pyramid to King Khufu is supported by workman’s markings that were found in the pyramid in small chambers that were never intended to be opened.

www.guardians.net...



One of the most compelling pieces of evidence we have is graffiti on ancient stone monuments in places that they didn't mean to be shown. Like on foundations when we dig down below the floor level, up in the relieving chambers above the King's chamber in the Great Pyramid, and in many monuments of the Old Kingdom—temples, other pyramids. Well, the graffiti gives us a picture of organization where a gang of workmen was organized into two crews, and the crews were subdivided into five phyles. Phyles is the Greek word for tribe.

www.pbs.org...




Regarding the red ochre paint marks found within the pyramid, most hieroglyph experts now believe these to be forgeries left by their "discoverer" Richard Howard-Vyse, rather than being quarry inscriptions left by the original builders.




According to our present knowledge the Great Pyramid of Giza is mostly solid mass, it’s only known interior spaces being the Descending passage (the original entrance), the Ascending passage, the Grand Gallery, a mysterious grotto, an equally mysterious subterranean chamber, and the two main chambers. These two chambers, called the King's Chamber and the Queen's Chamber, have unfortunately retained the misleading names given to them by early Arab visitors to the pyramid. It is an Arab custom to bury men in tombs with a flat roof and women in rooms with a gabled roof; therefore, in the Great Pyramid, the flat-roofed granite chamber became the King's Chamber, while the gabled, limestone chamber below became the Queen's. Even those archaeologists who still stubbornly subscribe to the tomb theory of the pyramid do not believe that a queen or anyone else was ever buried in the limestone chamber.

Egyptologists assume that this was the final resting place of Khufu, yet not the slightest evidence suggests that a corpse had ever been in this coffer or chamber. Nor have any embalming materials, any fragments of any article, or any clues whatsoever been found in the chamber or anywhere else in the entire pyramid that in any way indicates that Khufu (or anyone else) was ever buried there. Furthermore, the passageway leading from the Grand Gallery to the main chamber is too narrow to admit the movement of the coffer; the coffer must have been placed in the chamber as the pyramid was being built, contrary to the normal burial custom practiced by the Egyptians for three thousand years

sacredsites.com...

any real truth to this part ?



On some of the walls and ceilings of these four chambers crude hieroglyphs were found (on limestone blocks only), daubed in red paint, which are thought to have been added by the work-crews. The inscriptions included two cartouches (royal names enclosed in an oval) -- 'Khufu' (Shofo) and 'Khnum-Khufu' (Noumshofo) (12), and Egyptologists have taken this as confirmation that the Pyramid was built for the pharaoh Khufu.As previously noted, the problems associated with the cartouches are two-fold, firstly the question of their authenticity, and then their interpretation. Perhaps it might be best to confirm their authenticity before attempting to interpret them.


liked this whether its true or not ?


As one might almost expect, these inscriptions have become a point of contention, as it was been claimed that they contain spelling errors from a well known book on hieroglyphics that Col. Vyse was known to have had with him when he made the discoveries. Other findings by Col. Vyse have also been questioned over their authenticity, and therefore possibly discredit him. It was also suggested by the grandson of Humphries Brewer, the master mason who was engaged by Vsye to blow his way into the pyramid, and who was witness to the cartouches being painted, was objected, and was expelled from the site for disagreeing with the action

www.ancient-wisdom.com...



Fix opens with the following: 'In terms of direct and solid evidence, the association of Khufu with the great pyramid rests entirely on the apparently straightforward fact that there are cartouches reading "Khufu" painted on the walls of hidden chambers inside the building. However, the general controversy surrounding the pyramid extends even to the meaning of these marks, and the evidence is not as straightforward as it may seem. The cartouches reading Khufu are not the only cartouches in the relieving chambers. There are others, more numerous, which read Khnum-Khuf.



so really i'm trying to find out exactly
what definitive proof do we have that the Great Pyramid of Giza was actually Khufu's ?

I'm not an archaeologist
be gentle with me....



edit on 17-6-2017 by kibric because: boo




posted on Jun, 17 2017 @ 07:34 PM
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there is no proof
most likely its one of those bizzare ancient constructions that defy explanation



posted on Jun, 17 2017 @ 08:49 PM
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The established and traditional theories and 'facts' around Egyptology has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Who knows at this point.



posted on Jun, 17 2017 @ 09:17 PM
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a reply to: kibric

The identification comes from a lot of things, including the temple dedicated to Khufu that stood right in front of the pyramid (and more recently documents from the quay where the boats loaded with granite docked.

As to the interior, pyramids didn't have inscriptions in them until 100+ years after.

G1 and the other pyramids were robbed and damaged in antiquity.

And yes, there is NO way you could get the sarcophagus down the passageways (I've been there and went inside G1.) It was placed in the pyramid as it was being built. The passageway is very steep and difficult (you have to walk stooped over) - it looks rougher in person than it does in photos. The rooms MIGHT have been finished by plastering, but the damage from thousands of years of visitors makes it hard to tell.

The gang sign is the only visible one - there's probably others but they're not on visible surfaces.



posted on Jun, 17 2017 @ 09:38 PM
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To address something you asked



Regarding the red ochre paint marks found within the pyramid, most hieroglyph experts now believe these to be forgeries left by their "discoverer" Richard Howard-Vyse, rather than being quarry inscriptions left by the original builders.


Not true. They're from the work crews.



According to our present knowledge the Great Pyramid of Giza is mostly solid mass,

Not true. The interior is not solid blocks but rubble - it's quicker to dump sand in a space than to haul big stone blocks up into place.



it’s only known interior spaces being the Descending passage (the original entrance), the Ascending passage, the Grand Gallery, a mysterious grotto, an equally mysterious subterranean chamber, and the two main chambers. These two chambers, called the King's Chamber and the Queen's Chamber, have unfortunately retained the misleading names given to them by early Arab visitors to the pyramid.

Yes and no. Scans are being done to see if there's other chambers.


Even those archaeologists who still stubbornly subscribe to the tomb theory of the pyramid do not believe that a queen or anyone else was ever buried in the limestone chamber.

In part because the smaller pyramids in front of G1 (and other pyramids) seem to be the burial place of the queens.


Egyptologists assume that this was the final resting place of Khufu, yet not the slightest evidence suggests that a corpse had ever been in this coffer or chamber. Nor have any embalming materials, any fragments of any article, or any clues whatsoever been found in the chamber or anywhere else in the entire pyramid that in any way indicates that Khufu (or anyone else) was ever buried there.

The passage was written by someone who didn't bother to do any research. They don't embalm bodies in the tomb. They were embalmed in the mortuary temples and moved into the tomb AFTER the 70 days of mummification


Furthermore, the passageway leading from the Grand Gallery to the main chamber is too narrow to admit the movement of the coffer; the coffer must have been placed in the chamber as the pyramid was being built, contrary to the normal burial custom practiced by the Egyptians for three thousand years


Yes, the coffer was placed in as it was being built. Was it the "first time"? Other tombs (and later pyramids) have passageways that made right-angled turns and had other features that would have made it difficult to bring in coffins and funerary equipment (if they indeed brought them in there.)



On some of the walls and ceilings of these four chambers crude hieroglyphs were found (on limestone blocks only), daubed in red paint, which are thought to have been added by the work-crews. The inscriptions included two cartouches (royal names enclosed in an oval) -- 'Khufu' (Shofo) and 'Khnum-Khufu' (Noumshofo)

I have no idea where the "shofo" comes from (it makes no sense in Egyptian) but yes, you can clearly read Khufu in the cartouches - just as you can read "Khnum Khufu" in the other inscriptions (mortuary temples, quay documents, etc, etc.)


As previously noted, the problems associated with the cartouches are two-fold, firstly the question of their authenticity, and then their interpretation. Perhaps it might be best to confirm their authenticity before attempting to interpret them.

Or you could do as I did - learn to read hieroglyphs and read it for yourself. It says Khufu.



As one might almost expect, these inscriptions have become a point of contention, as it was been claimed that they contain spelling errors from a well known book on hieroglyphics that Col. Vyse was known to have had with him when he made the discoveries.

Not true.


Other findings by Col. Vyse have also been questioned over their authenticity, and therefore possibly discredit him.

Also not true.



posted on Jun, 17 2017 @ 11:18 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

Thank you for the concise replies



I'm trying to find out how many times
Khufu's name appears in the Great pyramid of Giza
whether its just based on one gang mark
or actual inscriptions ?




The gang sign is the only visible one - there's probably others but they're not on visible surfaces.




The identification comes from a lot of things, including the temple dedicated to Khufu that stood right in front of the pyramid (and more recently documents from the quay where the boats loaded with granite docked.


So to be clear Khufu's name appears only once within His pyramid
a sign left by work crews
as far as we know



The issue of the 'Khufu' cartouches in the Great pyramid is covered more completely in the section below. Mostly, it is their interpretation that is in debate. One of the few other written references to Khufu is contained on the 'inventory stele', discovered at Giza in the 1850s. It commemorates the restoration by Khuf... of a small temple near the Pyramid, and indicates that the Sphinx, the Sphinx Temple, and possibly the Great Pyramid itself, were already in existence in his day. The stele is written in a later style of writing and whereas some Egyptologists regard it as a copy of a 4th dynasty original, others consider it to be an original Saite product. Either way, it contradicts the idea that the sphinx was built by Khafre, who ruled after Khufu.

same temple ?
does the 'inventory stele' indicate that ?



but yes, you can clearly read Khufu in the cartouches - just as you can read "Khnum Khufu" in the other inscriptions (mortuary temples, quay documents, etc, etc.)




The cartouches reading Khufu are not the only cartouches in the relieving chambers. There are others, more numerous, which read Khnum-Khuf.


both Khufu and Khnum Khufu are within the pyramid ?



There is a large cartouche of Khnumu-Khufu, nearly all broken away by Vyse's forced entrance; but this and other hieroglyphs need not be noticed here, as they have been already published, while the details of the masons' marks and lines of measurement have been neglected


Apart from the mark left by work crews
what definitive evidence is within the Pyramid
that determines it is solely Khufu's ?



'In terms of direct and solid evidence, the association of Khufu with the great pyramid rests entirely on the apparently straightforward fact that there are cartouches reading "Khufu" painted on the walls of hidden chambers inside the building.

This is true ?
the only direct evidence within the pyramid to attribute the pyramid to Khufu ?

I just found it odd that in His pyramid Khufu is only mentioned directly once
at least that's so far as I can tell
and Khnumu-Khufu is there as well
does that mean a relative ?



Or you could do as I did - learn to read hieroglyphs and read it for yourself. It says Khufu

I would love to do that

edit on 17-6-2017 by kibric because: boo



posted on Jun, 18 2017 @ 01:11 AM
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a reply to: kibric

Perhaps they wanted to say fukhu to the authorities, but were dyslexic?

We may never know...



edit on 18/6/2017 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2017 @ 02:41 AM
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originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: Byrd
So to be clear Khufu's name appears only once within His pyramid
a sign left by work crews
as far as we know


Yes, and in a fairly inaccessible area. Tourists did get there after Vyse and it's full of graffiti. That said, there's little doubt that it's from a work crew (it actually gives the gang name... and we know the name of other work gangs (they had "Khufu" in their titles... "followers of Khufu" is the name in the inscription you see (gangs being a group of about 100 men. They divided the workforce into teams of 1,000 with sub-teams (gangs) of 100




The issue of the 'Khufu' cartouches in the Great pyramid is covered more completely in the section below. Mostly, it is their interpretation that is in debate. One of the few other written references to Khufu is contained on the 'inventory stele', discovered at Giza in the 1850s. It commemorates the restoration by Khuf... of a small temple near the Pyramid, and indicates that the Sphinx, the Sphinx Temple, and possibly the Great Pyramid itself, were already in existence in his day. The stele is written in a later style of writing and whereas some Egyptologists regard it as a copy of a 4th dynasty original, others consider it to be an original Saite product. Either way, it contradicts the idea that the sphinx was built by Khafre, who ruled after Khufu.

same temple ?
does the 'inventory stele' indicate that ?

Those are not his mortuary temple... he could hardly restore a temple after he was dead. He

The "Inventory Stela" and the "
Dream Stele (between the paws of the Sphinx)

The Inventory Stela is definitely 26th Dynasty. It's MUCH later than the Dream Stela (set between the paws of the Sphinx) and was written at a time when Khufu was only a legendary ruler and fabricated into an Evil Legendary Ruler featured in a number of absurd claims (like his daughter went to a temple to prostitute herself to get stones for the pyramid... each man who had sex with her had to give one stone for the pyramid. This is an absurd claim because pharaohs didn't do that, and no woman would be able to have 2.3 million instances of sex over 20 years.)

The Inventory Stela claims that the Temple of Isis there is older than the Sphinx and the Pyramids (which might be true) and that Khufu restored this temple.






The cartouches reading Khufu are not the only cartouches in the relieving chambers. There are others, more numerous, which read Khnum-Khuf.


both Khufu and Khnum Khufu are within the pyramid ?


Khnum-Khufu was his name (click on the "titulary" section on the right-hand side.. the text is hidden... you can see his name in cartouche as well as its meaning ) On ascending to the throne he chose four other names for himself.





'In terms of direct and solid evidence, the association of Khufu with the great pyramid rests entirely on the apparently straightforward fact that there are cartouches reading "Khufu" painted on the walls of hidden chambers inside the building.

This is true ?
the only direct evidence within the pyramid to attribute the pyramid to Khufu ?

I just found it odd that in His pyramid Khufu is only mentioned directly once
at least that's so far as I can tell
and Khnumu-Khufu is there as well
does that mean a relative ?


Remember that the pyramid (G1) has been used as a quarry (people stone the limestone outside and other things) and has been visited by tourists and treasure hunters for almost 3,000 years. What you're also not told from your sources is that the pyramid isn't an object in the middle of a desert... they had walls around each of them and there are small temples inside the walls.

Think of the Washington Monument here in Washington DC. It does NOT have Washington's name written everywhere inside and in fact if you came to see it after mankind died out, the only evidence of its name would be in a guidebook and outside the monument. If you use the surrounding area's evidence, you will say that "yes, that's the Washington Monument." If you look for names inside it, you will say "why, no... that's not the Washington Monument."

The speculation you've found has been discussed here many times (sorry if I seem short on this. It's wearisome after awhile.) it's made by people who never visited Egypt (with very few exceptions), who never worked an archaeology dig, who don't know how to read hieroglyphs, don't know a thing about the art and architecture of ancient Egypt, and who want to make a name for themselves by "answering the riddle of Giza." They pretend like there's only 3 pyramids there on Giza (not true) and that nothing else is there (also not true.)

The Egyptologists that they scoff at have spent years digging at the pyramid (centuries, actually, because the scientific evidence goes back to the time of Napoleon's expedition), spent years in school learning the history and art styles and military actions and interactions with neighboring nations, and can date hieroglyphs and coffins and artifacts by style (this is NOT easy.) These Egyptologists can read hieroglyphs far better than I am,and do not have any economic stake (no Egyptologist is getting rich off books on the Pyramids (and this would include Hawass)).

So we've got guys who want to sell books coming up with "the Egyptologists don't know a thing... here's the real scoop" and the Egyptologists who get up every morning, talk to their teams, and go out and do digs and artifact restoration saying the other thing.

I thing the Egyptologists are the real experts and the others are full of hot air. BTW the often repeated canard that they don't dare contradict the "official line" is wrong - you can't get a degree if you don't present something new that adds to the field.

And they know that Giza was not the most important and most sacred site in Egypt (that would actually be Abydos.)



posted on Jun, 18 2017 @ 02:42 AM
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posted on Jun, 18 2017 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

Brilliant response
you've cleared a lot of my questions up



featured in a number of absurd claims

regarding the "Inventory Stela


and possibly the Great Pyramid itself, were already in existence in his day

does it indicate this ?
an absurd claim within the Stela ?



So we've got guys who want to sell books coming up with "the Egyptologists don't know a thing... here's the real scoop" and the Egyptologists who get up every morning, talk to their teams, and go out and do digs and artifact restoration saying the other thing.
I thing the Egyptologists are the real experts and the others are full of hot air.

I couldn't agree more
but as an amateur sometimes
its hard to find the right people to listen to



And you can learn to read hieroglyphs (free) online in the Yahoo Glyphstudy groups.

I will definitely be checking that out



The speculation you've found has been discussed here many times (sorry if I seem short on this. It's wearisome after awhile.)

Thank you for your patience


edit on 18-6-2017 by kibric because: boo



posted on Jun, 18 2017 @ 06:45 PM
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originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: Byrd
regarding the "Inventory Stela
and possibly the Great Pyramid itself, were already in existence in his day
does it indicate this ?
an absurd claim within the Stela ?


Yes that's what it says. The drawing of it, made at its finding, is here

It currently lives in the Cairo Museum (which is in desperate need of a new facility) - you can see a short discussion of it and a picture of it on this web page along with some other references.



I couldn't agree more
but as an amateur sometimes
its hard to find the right people to listen to


It is. I thought I knew more than the average person about Egyptology...and then I was admitted to a degree program in Egyptology. I found out that I didn't know a blessed thing and that most of what I thought I knew was outdated by a hundred years or more. Now that I've almost completed the program, I think I know a bit... but it's nowhere NEAR what my professors know or the guys on the digs know.

(you wouldn't believe how complicated the field is. The basic reading list (which includes material in other languages AND old texts (from the Napoleon expedition) to new) is around 200 books. I must have read 300 papers and articles for class in the past 3 years... and I can still say that I don't know very much.)



posted on Jun, 19 2017 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: kibric

I should also add, that the identification of the pyramids (whose tombs they were) was never lost. Even the ancient Greeks knew that P1 was Cheops.

From Wikipedia...


Interestingly, the pharaoh officially used two versions of his birth name: Khnum-khuf and Khufu. The first (complete) version clearly exhibits Khufu's religious loyalty to Khnum, the second (shorter) version does not. It is unknown as to why the king would use a shortened name version, since it hides the name of Khnum and the king's name connection to this god. It might be possible though, that the short name wasn't meant to be connected to any god at all.[5][10]

Khufu is well known under his Hellenized name Khêops or Cheops (/ˈkiːɒps/, KEE-ops; Greek: Χέοψ, by Diodorus and Herodotus) and less well known under another Hellenized name, Súphis (/ˈsuːfᵻs/ SOO-fis; Greek: Σοῦφις, by Manetho).[5][10] A rare version of the name of Khufu, used by Josephus, is Sofe (/ˈsɒfiː/ SO-fe; Greek: Σόφε).[2] Arab historians, who wrote mystic stories about Khufu and the Giza pyramids, called him Saurid or Salhuk.


Khafre was Khefren (Chepherin, alternative spelling), and Menkaure was Mykerinos/Mycineros.



posted on Jun, 19 2017 @ 04:25 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: kibric

The gang sign is the only visible one - there's probably others but they're not on visible surfaces.

There are eight visible cartouches in the relieving chambers.
Two of them are Khufu - those are the only version I as a layman can identify by sight. One of them is only halfway visible since it disappears behind the floor
The others (I thought) were other names for Khufu.
Am I wrong?
Perring's drawings - see page 1 and 2

Harte



posted on Jun, 19 2017 @ 08:10 PM
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originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: kibric

The gang sign is the only visible one - there's probably others but they're not on visible surfaces.

There are eight visible cartouches in the relieving chambers.
Two of them are Khufu - those are the only version I as a layman can identify by sight. One of them is only halfway visible since it disappears behind the floor
The others (I thought) were other names for Khufu.
Am I wrong?
Perring's drawings - see page 1 and 2

Harte


No, you're correct. I vaguely remembered other graffiti. His drawings of the hieroglyphs are not very accurate, though, and it's a headache to try and read them.

It shows you just how tired I am of the GP.



posted on Jun, 19 2017 @ 09:24 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: kibric

The gang sign is the only visible one - there's probably others but they're not on visible surfaces.

There are eight visible cartouches in the relieving chambers.
Two of them are Khufu - those are the only version I as a layman can identify by sight. One of them is only halfway visible since it disappears behind the floor
The others (I thought) were other names for Khufu.
Am I wrong?
Perring's drawings - see page 1 and 2

Harte


No, you're correct. I vaguely remembered other graffiti. His drawings of the hieroglyphs are not very accurate, though, and it's a headache to try and read them.

It shows you just how tired I am of the GP.

Hah! Got one!


Harte



posted on Jun, 19 2017 @ 10:46 PM
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Maybe Khufu is hebrew for "grain silo"



posted on Jun, 20 2017 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

From the famed Egyptian Expert on Siamese Twins.. Dr. Ben Carson?



posted on Jun, 20 2017 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: Byrd



I should also add, that the identification of the pyramids (whose tombs they were) was never lost


you've clarified all of my queries

I wish I knew as much as you do about ancient Egypt

is there any mystery left in it for you ?



posted on Jun, 20 2017 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: Byrd



I should also add, that the identification of the pyramids (whose tombs they were) was never lost


you've clarified all of my queries

I wish I knew as much as you do about ancient Egypt

is there any mystery left in it for you ?

I actually don't know that much... you should meet my professors sometime!!

But is there any mystery for me -- oh, an endless mystery!

Most of the material in museums was collected by someone's grandma/grandpa and nobody knows anything about the real history. I recently did a paper (for class) on a group of votive figurines and identified some characteristics that might enable people to identify a specific workshop that was cranking these things out.

There's exciting research being done on "demons" (supernatural beings that can be guardians or enemies) and I am (slowly) working on a paper on magical knives (I believe I've made a discovery but there are so few examples that I could well be wrong) - work on hieroglyphs and the language, economic modeling, retranslating old translations, medicine, DNA analysis of mummies, and tons of things on Akhenaten and and how did the written expressions of politeness change over time...

...and my list is huge.

John Carlos Morena keeps uploading new works (copies of old papers) to Academia.edu every week and there's still a huge number of things that need to be researched. If I had time and money and dig teams and linguists, I could keep myself busy researching and answering these questions for the next 200 years or more.

Or, since I expect new discoveries with new tools, the next thousand years.

edit on 20-6-2017 by Byrd because: (no reason given)



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