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But isn't there a simple solution to free everything?

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posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 08:54 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
The federal government is the creator of money. So why not, create as much money as is necessary, for the budget in every fiscal year, to provide free everything? Never mind free healthcare, but also free food and drinks, free movie tickets, free housing, free electricity, free university and college, simply by borrowing all those trillions and trillions from itself, and then, poof, at the end of the year when the payment to itself is due, write off its own debt to itself? Isn't this the ultimate form of society? Complete socialism the way Karl Marx has envisioned? The way society is supposed to ultimately evolve into as predicted by sociologists? A society where there is no poor, no resentment, no taxation?


No, it does not work like that. What makes the dollar worthwhile is the citizens skills, labor, property and our countries natural resources.

If your plan really worked Venezuela would have zero issues, they are printing money as fast as they can and things are just getting worse.

There is no free ride, money has to have something backing it for anyone to value it.

The only way around this is enforcing the value of your currency by the barrel of a gun, but that will ultimately not work in the era of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction.




posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 08:55 PM
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originally posted by: ragsntatters
Probably could if we managed to automate many of the jobs and then people would just do the jobs they're passionate about e.g. I'm sure some people would want to be surgeons just because they want to help people and we could have something like mandatory training in 2-3 fields so you could switch between jobs (like a high value job and a low value job) and would have to perform the service for x number of days in a year for the system to work.


Hey Paul, can you perform this brain surgery next week?
No, sorry brah, no can do... I've got to perform my mandatory week of ditch digging net week...

Yeah, no... this idea is stunningly laughable.

If only there were a more logical system by which a man was rewarded based on the level of effort they put in, their experience level, the amount of specialization in their skills, demand for their work, and the degree of personal financial risk their job posed to their person... oh wait, look at me flying in Dumbo's Circus over here, there is such a system. CAPITALISM. Unfortunately, people who prefer to sit on their ass all day or who are personally satisfied with mediocrity and don't better the skillset they offer or even those who think because used bubblegum sculpture is oh-so fascinating to them they should be able to have a great paying career working in the medium despite absolutely ZERO demand for chewed bubblegum art pieces in the real world, don't like capitalism... so we have argument like we're seeing in this thread where schemes are hatched to provide for those who refuse to actually care for their own needs.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 08:56 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

Good point actually.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 08:57 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: allsee4eye



I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry, or look for Allan Funt to jump out and show me where the hidden cameras are after reading that suggestion. In a world where effort isn't rewarded and laziness isn't unrewarded, why would anyone put forth any effort at all? Why even bother with college if you're just going to get everything for free regardless? What possible reason would anyone have to ever do anything on a daily basis other than go fishing, go hunting, or space out in an Adirondak chair n the backyard munching on Funyans and sipping beers?



It really is sad someone believes the solution is this simple. It shows a complete lack of understanding of economics, and is a very bad reflection on our education system.

edit on 16-6-2017 by proximo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 08:58 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

There is a simple solution. For every praise a person gets from helping others, this individual of society gets a star. People compete to be the most helpful person in society. Every time a person provides a service to someone else for free, that person gets a star. In this way, everyone works for everyone else for free and does so happily and productively.
edit on 16-6-2017 by allsee4eye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 08:58 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

Inner drive. The fire of competition. The desire to be the very best and take on difficult tasks. The need to feel challenged and walk through hell with gasoline drawers on.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
a reply to: burdman30ott6

People inherently like to challenge themselves. It is the human spirit. No one is inherently lazy. Lazy people are really sick with disease and can't do as much as they like to do. Maslow's triangle tells us, when people satisfy their basic needs, they want to challenge themselves in the self actualization stage.


Yeah, let me challenge my high score in Defender followed up by me challenging my largest salmon caught and we can end the day with me challenging drawing the little bowler hat wearing turtle in those home art course pamphlets.

If Maslow's triangle was accurate, Karl Marx's harebrained BS would have actually persisted and thrived instead of crashing and burning only 3 generations in. From a productive standpoint, man is absolutely inherently lazy. From a personal goals standpoint, maybe not, but very few personal goals benefit the overall population enough to warrant folks being compensated for them.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
The federal government is the creator of money. So why not, create as much money as is necessary, for the budget in every fiscal year, to provide free everything? Never mind free healthcare, but also free food and drinks, free movie tickets, free housing, free electricity, free university and college, simply by borrowing all those trillions and trillions from itself, and then, poof, at the end of the year when the payment to itself is due, write off its own debt to itself? Isn't this the ultimate form of society? Complete socialism the way Karl Marx has envisioned? The way society is supposed to ultimately evolve into as predicted by sociologists? A society where there is no poor, no resentment, no taxation?


Socialism works but what you are describing isn't socialism. You are describing indefinite quantitative easing.

Remember in history class those picture of WW era folks using a wheelbarrow filled with cash to pay for a loaf of bread? That's what would happen.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:04 PM
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a reply to: Gumerk

Right. In a full socialist society, everyone put his or her best talent to use. How many of today's young people actually work in the field they studied at college or university? Often they have to take a job at first opportunity and get stuck with it because they can't afford to lose it. In a fully socialist society, everyone is free to purse a job that best matches their talent without pressure of losing it.
edit on 16-6-2017 by allsee4eye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: allsee4eye

You are obviously not a student of history.

Case 1. The Pilgrims. Initially, the farmland was 100% communal. Everything produced went to the 'greater good'. As a result nobody worked very hard. As a result of THAT, everyone nearly starve to death. Not until the system was changed so that land plot were divided up and became private property and each family owned whatever their plot produced did the community flourish.

Case 2. Russia when communism was introduced. Exact same scenario as Case 1.

I could go on and on. Read Atlas Shrugged.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:10 PM
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I suppose one reason socialism fails is because people have greed. If I can go to the restaurant and take as much as I like for free, I could probably take 100 hamburgers in a single day if I am allowed to store what I cannot eat. If everyone does this with every commodity and service, then the suppliers who provide goods and services would be overwhelmed and there would be lack of supply and too much demand.
edit on 16-6-2017 by allsee4eye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:12 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
a reply to: burdman30ott6

There is a simple solution. For every praise a person gets from helping others, this individual of society gets a star. People compete to be the most helpful person in society. Every time a person provides a service to someone else for free, that person gets a star. In this way, everyone works for everyone else for free and does so happily and productively.


Yeah, that is not working for free, that is just a different currency and it solves nothing.

People will not work for nothing, because they are selfish and value their labor and time.
You need to wake up, people are flawed, we don't live in utopia, and we will not evolve fast enough for that to change in our lifetimes.

The only hope for your free stuff is AI getting smart enough to be able to do everything humans can. Problem is there is a good chance the AI will decide to kill us all when it realizes we contribute nothing but use resources, pollute and take up space.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:12 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
a reply to: Kettu

Archimedes didn't work for money. Archimedes worked for passion. So did Christopher Columbus. So did Einstein. So did Galileo. So did Gauss. So did da Vinci. All the best scientists and inventors out there are self actualized people who challenge themselves, not for money or wealth, but because they are driven by the human spirit.


Archimedes was the cousin of the king of Syracuse and was absolutely paid to work on math problems by the king (look into Archimedes and the golden crown).
Christopher Columbus was paid handsomely by Spain to claim lands for the crown, which is why he did it.
Einstein patented much of what he invented and had an estimated $1 Mil net worth upon his death in 1955, making him quite wealthy.
Gauss was paid by universities to conduct his research, making him more famous and leading to greater demand for the courses he taught at said universities (in other words, his work made him wealthier)
Galileo and Da Vinci worked for their monarchs and were well compensated for it.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:15 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
a reply to: burdman30ott6

There is a simple solution. For every praise a person gets from helping others, this individual of society gets a star. People compete to be the most helpful person in society. Every time a person provides a service to someone else for free, that person gets a star. In this way, everyone works for everyone else for free and does so happily and productively.


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Except the treat reward star system is copyrighted by SkepticOverlord of ATS, who will no doubt demand compensation for using his patent and copyright, shooting gaping holes in your "no currency society" ideas right out of the gate.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 16-6-2017 by burdman30ott6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:18 PM
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Right, so the problem with socialism is supply and demand. Even if suppliers supply as much as they can out of passion of the human spirit, then can only supply a limited amount. But human greed is great and if people can take as much as they like for free, then demand will exceed supply. Think about it, if movie tickets are free, I would watch movies pretty much all day long.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:19 PM
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People that hate these kinds of ideas are usually people who are bent over by their employers, think they're worth more than they are, bitter at their lot in life, think they should be compensated more than they are ect...

They hate the idea of suddenly not getting the meager rewards they do for all their toiling away, and having even more just "handed" to them. It's insulting. They'd probably refuse anything offered anyway.

Another reason why these people generally hate social safety nets. They see it as in insult to who they are for them to exist. I had a coworker tell me that my disabled uncle should just die because he cant' work.

"Well, why should I have to pay for his disability? They ought to make assisted suicide legal, it would make society stronger"

I had to use ever ounce of restraint I had to keep from decking the guy. I kind of wanted to keep my job.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6


Maybe there's something to it?



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:23 PM
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originally posted by: allsee4eye
Think about it, if movie tickets are free, I would watch movies pretty much all day long.


Boy, it didn't take long for that "people want to challenge themselves" nonsense to fly right out the window, did it? You just proved my damn point. People work for tangible reward, PERIOD. I actually enjoy engineering, I've been doing it for quite awhile now, I'm good at it, and it pays the bills... if I hit the Powerball lottery tomorrow, I'd never touch another AASHTO Green Book again in my life. I'd spend my remaining decades chasing my passions, not a damn one of which is worth enough to pay a single bill under the present system, which means they'd not be of any benefit under a currency-less system, either. I guarantee you the vast majority of humanity is in the same boat. If they weren't, weekends wouldn't be such a massively big deal, nor would holidays.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:25 PM
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a reply to: allsee4eye

Is there a union for accountants ? Darn, I missed that memo. A union for accountants, never thought about it but I suppose there is one out there.



posted on Jun, 16 2017 @ 09:25 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

People do like to challenge themselves. Maslow is right. Human spirit is unleashed when basic needs are met. The problem is, human greed is what makes demand more than supply in a socialist society if people are allowed to take as much as they like for free. That's why stores in socialist countries are always empty.



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