Trump working with his favorite daughter signs EO to expand apprenticeship programs

Wife's uncle has a job, work 6 months a year clears 120k a year... Only way to get the job is an apprenticeship..

I always laugh when people say if you don't go to college you'll be poor the rest of your life.

I finally decided to goto college because I was finally ready to slog through the idiotic classes that have nothing to do with the job I want just to get a piece of paper that shows I can be taught.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Wife's uncle has a job, work 6 months a year clears 120k a year... Only way to get the job is an apprenticeship..

I always laugh when people say if you don't go to college you'll be poor the rest of your life.

I finally decided to goto college because I was finally ready to slog through the idiotic classes that have nothing to do with the job I want just to get a piece of paper that shows I can be taught.

The problem with comparing wages is that wages aren't uniform across the country. Virtually any senior position in a large city will be offering 100k salaries, given enough experience but as I've made the case for many times... 100k isn't actually all that much money anymore. There's a psychological barrier in adding the extra digit and that's the main reason we still use it as a benchmark.

Instead of comparing hard numbers, I think it's best to look at how you're paid compared to the median wage for your area.

My feelings on this are that a job worth working (meaning something you've trained for years for) should pay your areas median wage with no experience and more training means more money.

What this means, is that if you're comparing to the national average, you need to be making a minimum of $26/hour to start. If the job doesn't pay that, you're better off devoting your time 100% towards making yourself more marketable. If your profession won't pay at least that much to start... you should look at something better paying unless you're willing to sacrifice pay for doing what you want to do. That's using the national average though, in a large expensive city such as San Francisco where the median wage is $89,000... that's what you need to make, which breaks down to about $45/hour. In a more rural part of the US such as where I live, you could make a valid argument at $8/hour which is the median wage.

You use the example of $120k and 6 months off. That's a nice deal in most circumstances, but what did it take to get to that point? Is an apprenticeship offering that? Like I mentioned before (and I know I won the job lottery... I'm not mentioning it to brag, only as a point of comparison) I'm negotiating with my employer right now for a permanent position at the end of my internship I'm currently doing. What we're looking at is around $70/hour, for 20 hours/week, totally remote and in one of the lowest COL areas of the US (it's roughly 7x the median wage). As far as I'm aware, an apprenticeship will never do that. They'll start you out at a low wage and eventually ramp you up as you hit journeyman and master.

But, as I said... on the job training has the problem that it only trains you to do that specific job. That's why so much of college focuses on making someone a well rounded person, and why gen ed's are much more important than your in major classes (and why so many in college get it wrong, and learn their major while forgetting the rest... then wonder what happened). It gives you the foundation to do anything by utilizing a cross section of multi topic knowledge. An apprenticeship only trains you to do one specific job. If you go to school for mechanical engineering you can do a wide variety of work, if you apprentice as a pipefitter you can only do that one job and in an era where everything is being automated, that's a huge career risk, it's much better to learn skills and train for jobs that are in demand for a wide range of professions.

originally posted by: JAY1980

originally posted by: RomeByFire
I have absolutely no idea how this statement could possibly be construed as a negative:

Well when the degree has the same economic worth as the paper it's printed on it is a negative

Not true. The degree qualifies you for a lot more jobs. Having worked in the computer industry, I can tell you that there's over a $10k/year difference if you've got a degree and up to $50k/year more with the right certifications on top of the degree.

Non-degreed jobs in the computer industry are low level tech support and call center and (honestly) they're not ones that I enjoy doing. Degreed jobs are in computer security (fun!), networking, database and network administration and coding.

Over a 30 year career (like I had), it's a considerable amount of money and makes a huge difference in what you can afford for your kids (medical care, for one). For a woman, the economic difference is even greater.

That doesn't mean everyone needs a degree, but it does mean that the idea that it's "worthless" is not the full story.

originally posted by: Aazadan
But, as I said... on the job training has the problem that it only trains you to do that specific job. That's why so much of college focuses on making someone a well rounded person, and why gen ed's are much more important than your in major classes (and why so many in college get it wrong, and learn their major while forgetting the rest... then wonder what happened). It gives you the foundation to do anything by utilizing a cross section of multi topic knowledge. An apprenticeship only trains you to do one specific job.

Yep. Getting the degree meant the difference between "how fast can you type" and "how fast can you program." At the time (1985), the difference between fast typist and fast programmer was $14,000/year.

a reply to: allsee4eye


I am a Journeyman Machine repairman, worked a 4 year apprenticeship program and now have 30 years experience. The skilled trades are essential to manufacturing and there is a shortage of Journeymen right now. You can make some good money, upper middle class blue collar. I was terrible in school, liked building hot cars better, and wasn't able to get or keep a good production job until I got into the trades, and realized this is what makes me happy and has for 30 years. I have raised a great family, lived a good life in a smaller town outside of Milwaukee. The beauty of apprenticeships is you get paid and usually have full benefits while you learn.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Wife's uncle has a job, work 6 months a year clears 120k a year... Only way to get the job is an apprenticeship..

I always laugh when people say if you don't go to college you'll be poor the rest of your life.

I finally decided to goto college because I was finally ready to slog through the idiotic classes that have nothing to do with the job I want just to get a piece of paper that shows I can be taught.

The problem with comparing wages is that wages aren't uniform across the country. Virtually any senior position in a large city will be offering 100k salaries, given enough experience but as I've made the case for many times... 100k isn't actually all that much money anymore. There's a psychological barrier in adding the extra digit and that's the main reason we still use it as a benchmark.

Instead of comparing hard numbers, I think it's best to look at how you're paid compared to the median wage for your area.

My feelings on this are that a job worth working (meaning something you've trained for years for) should pay your areas median wage with no experience and more training means more money.

What this means, is that if you're comparing to the national average, you need to be making a minimum of $26/hour to start. If the job doesn't pay that, you're better off devoting your time 100% towards making yourself more marketable. If your profession won't pay at least that much to start... you should look at something better paying unless you're willing to sacrifice pay for doing what you want to do. That's using the national average though, in a large expensive city such as San Francisco where the median wage is $89,000... that's what you need to make, which breaks down to about $45/hour. In a more rural part of the US such as where I live, you could make a valid argument at $8/hour which is the median wage.

You use the example of $120k and 6 months off. That's a nice deal in most circumstances, but what did it take to get to that point? Is an apprenticeship offering that? Like I mentioned before (and I know I won the job lottery... I'm not mentioning it to brag, only as a point of comparison) I'm negotiating with my employer right now for a permanent position at the end of my internship I'm currently doing. What we're looking at is around $70/hour, for 20 hours/week, totally remote and in one of the lowest COL areas of the US (it's roughly 7x the median wage). As far as I'm aware, an apprenticeship will never do that. They'll start you out at a low wage and eventually ramp you up as you hit journeyman and master.

But, as I said... on the job training has the problem that it only trains you to do that specific job. That's why so much of college focuses on making someone a well rounded person, and why gen ed's are much more important than your in major classes (and why so many in college get it wrong, and learn their major while forgetting the rest... then wonder what happened). It gives you the foundation to do anything by utilizing a cross section of multi topic knowledge. An apprenticeship only trains you to do one specific job. If you go to school for mechanical engineering you can do a wide variety of work, if you apprentice as a pipefitter you can only do that one job and in an era where everything is being automated, that's a huge career risk, it's much better to learn skills and train for jobs that are in demand for a wide range of professions.

Well rounded? I can do machining, welding, run pipe, I have operated Rubber tired boom cranes, operated all kinds of heavy equiptment, I do light electrical do some machine programing, troubleshoot and repair brake downs,
I believe this on the job learner is pretty well rounded, granted not everyone will have the exposure I have.

originally posted by: darepairman
Well rounded? I can do machining, welding, run pipe, I have operated Rubber tired boom cranes, operated all kinds of heavy equiptment, I do light electrical do some machine programing, troubleshoot and repair brake downs,
I believe this on the job learner is pretty well rounded, granted not everyone will have the exposure I have.

Your apprenticeship taught you all that? And you were actually good enough at all of it to be trusted to do it independently?

a reply to: Aazadan

Got it, you do not have the slightest idea about trade skills but will never admit to that.

You are trying to split hairs and refuse to accept that you can make a good living with your hands...

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Aazadan

Got it, you do not have the slightest idea about trade skills but will never admit to that.

You are trying to split hairs and refuse to accept that you can make a good living with your hands...

I know a little bit about them but not much. Educate me.

I will argue the point that you'll make a good living out of it though. Trades, and any job that relies on physical labor simply doesn't work as a career. Your body is a depreciating asset while your mind is an appreciating asset.

Every day your body loses a little bit of value and a little bit of earnings potential. Despite your experience in your 50's you're simply not as physically capable as a 20 year old. Say you have to work until 70, and the situation is even worse. Your mind on the other hand only appreciates with time, as a dumb 16 year old you're not going to know much, but by the time you're 60 you'll be a good deal smarter.

Tying your ability to earn to your body simply isn't a good business move, especially for people in my generation who will likely never be able to retire (or be in our 80's when we do). It's much better to invest in your mind, because you passively gain more skills and experience simply through living life, to say nothing of if you actively cultivate it.

On top of that are the wages, jobs that are mentally taxing tend to pay much better. Again, using the 100k marker, any decent computer job will start you at 100k. You don't build up to that... that's what they give you to start, 0 experience. Sure, you can make a living at trades, someone has to do it. How long can you keep it up though? Can you still do it at 80?

a reply to: Aazadan
Not just the apprenticeship tought me that, the jobs I did over the coarse of 4 different companys, 2 non union and 2 union shops
Not to blow my own horn but yes, management trust does me with any thing I am required to do and also trust me enough to include me in capital improvement plans. I don't want to get into a pissing match here with you, I do have respect for a collage deploma when respect is due, and the best thing about a tech school education, is there isn't even any safe spaces needed. People in apprenticeships are generally more interested in learning than bitching about their feelings, these people really want to learn.
Just to reply to your next post, I am 54 years old and still doing pretty good physicaly, but you work your ass off when you are young and gain knowlage and work more with your head, its called seniority. I would not be happy sitting in a cube all day every day and have to pay for a gym membership just to keep the athrophy (sp) and heart problems from setting in. As far as the income is concerened, I guess its only how much more than enough you think you need.

originally posted by: darepairman
Not just the apprenticeship tought me that, the jobs I did over the coarse of 4 different companys, 2 non union and 2 union shops

In other words, your apprenticeship did not teach you that. Future employers did. Wouldn't it have been much better economically for your company had you gone off and learned all of that on your own, rather than your company having to take the risk of training you, and the expense, and hoping you would stick with it and work out?

That's how it is in the stuff I do. 14 years of school to get semi competent with everything (I'm still not quite there, but I'm close), and then 2 hours of research per night to stay up to date and learn new things (or refresh existing knowledge). It works fine, if I want to get comfortable in something I can do so, or I can continue to branch out and do new stuff. I can't imagine trying to go into a company knowing virtually nothing and asking for a job. It literally just does not compute to me. There is zero reason why an employer should ever bring me or anyone else in to do a job we have little experience in, when actual people with experience are looking for work.

The worst case scenario for the company is that they pay to train you, then you go elsewhere. I'm not a fan of indentured servitude, so I wouldn't approve of insurance against that scenario where you agree to stay with a company for X years after training.

People in apprenticeships are generally more interested in learning than bitching about their feelings, these people really want to learn.

That's not what college is like though, I've spent more than enough time in them, so I've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. The ridiculousness you're referencing generally only applies to larger schools. The smaller ones, and in particular the ones with lower tuition aren't interested in doing any of that. People are there to learn.

Just to reply to your next post, I am 54 years old and still doing pretty good physicaly, but you work your ass off when you are young and gain knowlage and work more with your head, its called seniority.

Promotions unfortunately, are a pyramid scheme. You cannot count on ever getting a single one. If there are 1000 entry level positions, there will be 500 above that, then 250 above that, then 125, 62, 31, 15, 7, 4, 2, and eventually 1 at the top of the company. All 1000 cannot advance, even if they all stick with it for their entire career. Those that do will be fine, but I'm looking at those that don't.

We're also in different generations. I notice people that are 50+ who push trades. The problem for my generation (I'm right at the older cutoff for being a dirty milennial) is that we have to deal with the tech bubble bursting, the 2008 crash, the decade of no economic recovery since, another looming bubble, and an ever rising retirement age. No one my age actually thinks we'll get to retire at 67, the optimistic views are at 75, and even then we don't think we'll be home owners (some will be making house payments, but few will ever have a house paid for) or financially secure. Trades which need to carry you into those ages simply aren't practical. You feel fine at 54 now, but 25 years ago you weren't even 30. I bet your body handled the work much easier. How do you think you could handle it in another 25 years at 79?

That's what we're looking at. It's a very risky career for people in my generation, and the payoff for that risk isn't really there either unless you really want to do that type of work.

originally posted by: Byrd
Yep. Getting the degree meant the difference between "how fast can you type" and "how fast can you program." At the time (1985), the difference between fast typist and fast programmer was $14,000/year.

I miss the days when being a good typist was a viable job skill in and of itself. I've gotten worse at typing over time though. I used to be well over 150 WPM, and probably competitive with the fastest typists in the world. But it seems like these days every single keyboard is just a little different, and I routinely need to manage 7 keyboards of different sizes. The mere act of adjusting to each keyboard takes more effort than it should.

I'm can still type pretty well though despite that. I haven't measured but I'm guessing I'm around 140 WPM these days with two hands (I can still type at dictation level speeds, but it's harder than it used to be). Or I can type at about 30 WPM with each hand independently on different keyboards, which is a cool trick but pretty useless.

Programming though, I'm honestly pretty slow. I'm just good enough at it that I can pass my classes, and no better. It's definitely a case where I type much faster than I can think. The programmer/typist pay gap is much larger today too, probably on the order of $80,000 per year.

a reply to: Aazadan

Well its the kind of work I like to do, even when I have time off my favorite thing to do is work in my own shop. At 54 I have 9 years to go to retirement, and own a house witch will be paid off in a couple of years.
How old will you be when all that student debt is paid off? Good luck working till 79 or so. I am done trying to explaine that collage is not for everyone and that there are other options, not everyone came from the same well financed cookie cutter.
Thanks for the talk Ed

I would always suggest a trade or skill before college/university education,unless you are at said college/university to study a "real life" hands-on profession like being a doctor,dentist,vet,etc.Useful,always in demand professions.In my own country,I see many people with college degrees unemployed,whilst those with trades usually can manage to find something,say for instance,even a mechanic working for himself from home.Looks like there's a lot of worthless studying going on in all these airy fairy subjects like liberal arts,womens'studies etc.Utter waste of time and money,imo.

a reply to: Raxoxane

Thank you Raxoxane, That is kind of the point I was trying to make

originally posted by: darepairman
Well its the kind of work I like to do, even when I have time off my favorite thing to do is work in my own shop. At 54 I have 9 years to go to retirement, and own a house witch will be paid off in a couple of years.
How old will you be when all that student debt is paid off? Good luck working till 79 or so. I am done trying to explaine that collage is not for everyone and that there are other options, not everyone came from the same well financed cookie cutter.
Thanks for the talk Ed

Doing the job you want to do is the most important thing. If the job isn't what you want to be doing, then you're going to have a pretty miserable time doing it. I'm simply contesting the argument that trades are actually competitive to other options. They aren't. You can survive by doing them, and if that's the type of work you want to do, then that's more than enough. Most of these arguments hinge around earnings potential though and it's just not there for trades, especially long term for people in my generation.

As for student loan debt, I don't have any. I attended school entirely through a mix of scholarships and grants (lots of Pell Grants, alongside a few others). All told though, if I didn't have that, it would have run about $100,000 which would take about 3 years to pay off. Tuition really isn't all that expensive, it's your living costs while attending school that get you.

a reply to: Aazadan

On that note, success is all in the eye of the beholder. You do understand that when the TSHTF, You wont have any manual skills and a guy with my skills will be in demand, I dabble in blacksmithing also as a hobbie, so while you are stuck with nothing to type, guys like me will be in strong demand.

originally posted by: darepairman
a reply to: Aazadan

On that note, success is all in the eye of the beholder. You do understand that when the TSHTF, You wont have any manual skills and a guy with my skills will be in demand, I dabble in blacksmithing also as a hobbie, so while you are stuck with nothing to type, guys like me will be in strong demand.

I've long ago decided that I don't want to live in a world without modern technology. If it ever came to that, I would happily kill myself rather than slowly starve to death uncomfortably.

That said, I'm not entirely without skills without modern technology. I'm quite good at math, I could easily do something related to money like banking, finance, or insurance. Alternatively I could teach. Or, I could make a fortune rebuilding society. Contrary to popular belief, computer science isn't actually about programming... it's about using incremental steps of logic to solve problems, whatever problem is at hand. It applies equally to building algorithms to synchronize multiple people cutting beams to build a house as it does to building an algorithm to combine some numbers.

The question is, why would I want to live in a TSHTF world? In a world where supply lines break down and we reverse 500 years of progress what's worth living for other than life itself? It would be a world of drastically reduced production where we would be lucky to have food, and rule would be by whoever has the most guns and thugs. I would rather not live in that environment, so I would simply choose not to.

Instead, I'll focus my talents on preventing such a scenario in the first place, rather than developing the skills to survive if/when it does happen.

a reply to: Aazadan

All right I get the picture here, you are better than any of the people who provide you with your comforts and will not live without these comforts, got it. If this generation of yours all had the logic you have, we are indeed in deep dodo.
So go ahead and look down at the folks who do other than you do, I just don't understand where this self important attitude comes from in some people. If everyone did what you do you probably wouldn't survive, (too much competition)
This is the kind of attitude I look down at.
Have a good day and good luck

a reply to: darepairman

That's not my attitude. Someone has to do the job, I'm just saying you're deluding people if you claim those jobs are competitive, or are going to make anyone rich. They're jobs that lead to careers where you earn less than the 50th percentile at all stages of your career.

If that's the job people want to do, I have no problem with it. There's things more important than money, such as actually getting to enjoy your job. I'm just making the argument that it's ludicrous to say these jobs give people the same employment options or the same money as those fancy college degrees. It's an anti education argument that ultimately ends in dumbing down the work force.

I'm not arguing for any specific degree either, there's arguments that my major is flooded at the moment (and it has a major out sourcing issue). All I'm saying is, become educated. Learn subjects like math, philosophy, music, physics, other sciences, and so on. It doesn't even matter if you graduate (though that's helpful). I'm of the opinion that people should become competent in multiple fields as it leads to much more innovative solutions to problems. Apprenticeships don't cross train.