I’m crawling out of the MUD PIT!

I have never written a post critical of ATS and I never will. Quite the opposite actually. I have written dozens of posts defending this site against the all-too-frequent whiners, bashers, and bitchers over the years.

Apart from being the only site of its kind that I’ve ever found, as a businessman, I appreciate how ATS is operated by Administration and staff. I know Springer has a banking background, and some others responsible for the ATS operation are business owners.

This small business owner (land development) and VC group consultant, knows that no site of this nature could be run this well absent someone with business experience influencing the operation.

Over the years (I was a "lurker" back in 2003, made an ID in 2005 that I forgot -- long story, and have been popping in and out ever since), ATS ownership, administration, and staff have struck that perfect balance of keeping things fresh, cutting the dead wood (I might do a little more of that if I were King), all while preserving what made ATS so much fun to begin with.

But the “Mud Pit” was a mistake. Here’s why…

ATS is privately owned and can make any rules limiting or restricting speech and “conduct”. There is no question there.

However, if the Political Mud Pit was indeed intended to be a “platform for members to hash out their political differences” and to “contentiously debate tough political issues, unencumbered by the usual constraints of civility and decorum found elsewhere on ATS”, it has become something quite different from that.

Many (50% or more) threads originating in the Mud Pit devolve into monologues no one pays attention to, pettiness and grade school retorts that rapidly descend into mindless rancor, and repetitious often idiotic attacks on one’s intellect or character.

The Mud Pit brings out the worst in everyone – myself included. It does not serve the purpose for which it was intended – a noble and worthy cause, to be sure. I am a huge fan of rigorous debate. But because of the rules and reg's of the Mud Pit, any debate can end with (and many times does) accusations of “lying”, “deflecting”, or outright trolling.

That’s not “debate” of any kind at that point – it’s a brawl.

Perhaps worst of all, the Mud Pit has become a contagion. If the original intent was to create a containment zone for toxic waste, it didn’t work. There’s a latent grime of nastiness in pretty much every thread not related to birthdays or kittens these days. Again, I am guilty of contributing to some of that myself.

So, I’ve made my last post in the Political Mud Pit. I will still read it of course, but the issues surrounding the policy direction of this country are too important to me at this point and time in our history for me to allow myself to be dragged into the Mud and take others down with me.

ATS shouldn’t need a Mud Pit.

a reply to: SBMcG

Well written, and I concur.

Now, go shower - you're leaking mud everywhere.

a reply to: SBMcG

The Mud Pit is great and ATS does need it. Sometimes it's good to have a forum where you can unleash that built up disagreement with people who think differently to you.

I would go so far as to say that the Mud Pit has saved a lot of members asses from getting banned.


S&F btw because I understand how you feel.

originally posted by: Wide-Eyes
a reply to: SBMcG

The Mud Pit is great and ATS does need it. Sometimes it's good have a forum where you can unleash that built up disagreement with people who think differently to you.

I would go so far as to say that the Mud Pit has saved a lot of members asses from getting banned.

I would agree with you in principle, but the problem is, too many of us take the Mud Pit with us when we leave.

I'm not asking ATS to get rid of the Mud Pit.

It's just not for me anymore...

originally posted by: TruthsSword
a reply to: SBMcG

Well written, and I concur.

Now, go shower - you're leaking mud everywhere.

You sound like my girlfriend when I come in from riding my dirt bike

If it wasn't for the mud pit, I doubt if I'd even bother to log on.

a reply to: SBMcG

But you're one of my favourite mud pitters!

originally posted by: SBMcG

The Mud Pit brings out the worst in everyone – myself included. It does not serve the purpose for which it was intended – a noble and worthy cause, to be sure. I am a huge fan of rigorous debate. But because of the rules and reg's of the Mud Pit, any debate can end with (and many times does) accusations of “lying”, “deflecting”, or outright trolling.

That’s not “debate” of any kind at that point – it’s a brawl.

Well said I feel it is the bane of ATS. It has lowered standards across the board and driven away many good contributors.
I would not shed a tear to see the mudpit gone.
But I'm not holding my breath on that happening.

originally posted by: olaru12
If it wasn't for the mud pit, I doubt if I'd even bother to log on.

Really?

Have you read all the excellent forums and threads out there?

You could spend a year going through it all and probably still find something new.

originally posted by: SolAquarius

originally posted by: SBMcG

The Mud Pit brings out the worst in everyone – myself included. It does not serve the purpose for which it was intended – a noble and worthy cause, to be sure. I am a huge fan of rigorous debate. But because of the rules and reg's of the Mud Pit, any debate can end with (and many times does) accusations of “lying”, “deflecting”, or outright trolling.

That’s not “debate” of any kind at that point – it’s a brawl.

Well said I feel it is the bane of ATS. It has lowered standards across the board and driven away many good contributors.
I would not shed a tear to see the mudpit gone.
But I'm not holding my breath on that happening.

It's above my pay grade to come right out and presume to tell ATS management what they should or should not do.

But I agree with you -- I would not mourn the passing of the Mud Pit.

originally posted by: Wide-Eyes
a reply to: SBMcG

But you're one of my favourite mud pitters!

LMMFLWAO!

Thank you.

But from this point forward, I think I'll try to do my thing with a little less Mud Pittiness...

a reply to: SBMcG
I only wish I could ignore the mud pit. But, mud pit posts are often the top posts featured on the home page.

I get frustrated with myself when I decide to reply on a mud pit thread since it never goes anywhere or inspires someone to change the subject. The post at the top of ATS today outright acknowledges its intent to provoke. At least the poster is being honest.

A good happy medium would be to allow members to hide the mud pit from the homepage. That would make me happy, at least.

originally posted by: icanteven
a reply to: SBMcG
I only wish I could ignore the mud pit. But, mud pit posts are often the top posts featured on the home page.

I get frustrated with myself when I decide to reply on a mud pit thread since it never goes anywhere or inspires someone to change the subject. The post at the top of ATS today outright acknowledges its intent to provoke. At least the poster is being honest.

A good happy medium would be to allow members to hide the mud pit from the homepage. That would make me happy, at least.

I hear ya. I struggled with this decision all day yesterday and kind of did a one-last-lap thing in the Mud Pit to make sure I wasn't over-reacting.

But for me, I know it's the right decision.

originally posted by: icanteven
a reply to: SBMcG
I only wish I could ignore the mud pit. But, mud pit posts are often the top posts featured on the home page.

I get frustrated with myself when I decide to reply on a mud pit thread since it never goes anywhere or inspires someone to change the subject. The post at the top of ATS today outright acknowledges its intent to provoke. At least the poster is being honest.

A good happy medium would be to allow members to hide the mud pit from the homepage. That would make me happy, at least.

This is my second time on ATS upon signing up I made a commitment to never create a mudpit thread so far I have stuck to it. That hasn't stopped me from posting in the pit. But recently I have stopped doing that it's a waste of time and energy that goes on for pages and pages it's the same people in the mudpit taking the same sides I rarely see the mudpit kings in other forums.

originally posted by: SolAquarius

originally posted by: icanteven
a reply to: SBMcG
I only wish I could ignore the mud pit. But, mud pit posts are often the top posts featured on the home page.

I get frustrated with myself when I decide to reply on a mud pit thread since it never goes anywhere or inspires someone to change the subject. The post at the top of ATS today outright acknowledges its intent to provoke. At least the poster is being honest.

A good happy medium would be to allow members to hide the mud pit from the homepage. That would make me happy, at least.

This is my second time on ATS upon signing up I made a commitment to never create a mudpit thread so far I have stuck to it. That hasn't stopped me from posting in the pit. But recently I have stopped doing that it's a waste of time and energy that goes on for pages and pages it's the same people in the mudpit taking the same sides I rarely see the mudpit kings in other forums.

Excellent observation!

There are some truly brilliant minds on ATS -- many of them post predominantly in the Mud Pit.

I do not judge them for that at all. They are smart enough to make their own choices.

AS for me, it was time to give it one last middle finger and move on.

originally posted by: olaru12
If it wasn't for the mud pit, I doubt if I'd even bother to log on.

There in lies the quality of your posts.

Oops, sorry. I've inadvertently proven the OP's point.

originally posted by: icanteven
a reply to: SBMcG
I only wish I could ignore the mud pit. But, mud pit posts are often the top posts featured on the home page.

Oh what I would give for this feature just click a box on which forums you don't want to see in any of the feeds.
bye Bye mudpit I don't have to see you anymore and I can focus on the topics I enjoy with out your negative energy ruining my experience and influencing my subconscious mind.

a reply to: SBMcG

are we scared to quickly point the finger at the culprits whom spam the mudpit with filth and disinfo and retardation on a daily basis.... ? it's the same 5 persons almost always...
you don't have to go too far to see who are the 'worst' of the worst.

but say what you will, this is a privately own boards, and the impasse arguments in the pit generate traffic and more nonsensical arguments, which generate even more traffic .

business 101.

give fake control and a fake voice to those whom otherwise would have none; you have the freedom to say what you will, but all you will say will be negative and there will be never any good to come out of the discussions. it goes to some people's heads quickly. they come back for more.

and as for your criticism, I wouldn't be surprised if you get attacked for pointing out what the pit really is.

originally posted by: SolAquarius

originally posted by: icanteven
a reply to: SBMcG
I only wish I could ignore the mud pit. But, mud pit posts are often the top posts featured on the home page.

Oh what I would give for this feature just click a box on which forums you don't want to see in any of the feeds.

That's a really good idea and shouldn't be too much of a stretch from a technical standpoint to implement.

originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: SBMcG

and as for your criticism, I wouldn't be surprised if you get attacked for pointing out what the pit really is.

I'm not worried about it. I'm a big boy...