The Last Supper as Marzeah.

It's strange that the basis for the Last Supper is so little understood, that this should be seen as a Marzeah, the practise of which had been widespread through Semitic lands for at least two thousand years previously, strange also that it is not really understood what was involved.

The Marzeah was a private and sacred gathering of 12 individuals led by a 13th the leader of the feast and the role of the given King, the 13 represented Divine archetypes, Strabo described it thus;

They – the Nabataeans – prepare common meals together in groups of thirteen persons; and they have two girl-singers for each banquet. The king holds many drinking bouts in magnificent style, but no one drinks more than eleven cupfuls, each time using a different golden cup. The king is so democratic that, in addition to serving himself, he sometimes even serves the rest himself in turn’

The institution of the Mazreah is know from the 3rd millenium BCE;

Eblaite texts from the third millennium BCE refer to the day of marzea and a text mentions the superintendent of the mar-za-u This word is mentioned frequently in the Ugaritic sources, including a reference to ‘house of the men of the mar-ze-i

Traditionally this elite group would be presided over by an actual King and 12 notables;

The marzea was a banquet and association whose participants were mostly among the high-rank officials, and was comprised mostly of males, as indicated by Strabo It was an association of a group who had a specific deity as its patron. Each marzeaÌ was led by a rb mrz Ì’ who was responsible for managing and organizing the meeting, which was held in special places designed for this purpose. Basically, each had its own patron deity, Bel in Palmyra and Dushara in Nabataea. The Nabataeans constructed rock-cut triclinia for these funerary and religious festivals and meetings. These dining and banqueting halls were constructed to celebrate the feast of the dead

At sites such as Hatra this meeting place could be a cella in the very heart of the Temple complex, it literally held a central place in the religious practise were the elite assumed the role of the Deities, a role which involved feasting and getting completely drunk.

The word marzea is attested twice in biblical sources (Amos 6:7; Jer. 16:5) and the Septuagint renders it as Thiasos, which makes the direct comparison between the Feasts of Bacchus/Dionysus and the Marzea was the Semitic equivalent, in effect a curious state of affairs was involved were nature spirits would be understood to rise from the Underworld while the feasters gradually descended into it...

In biblical time the spirits called upon were not so much the spirits of the newly deceased as spirits from a far and distant past. The rephaim are little spirits of fertility

Like other demons they are living in and moving through "the air" at which they arrive after a 3-day journey from the underworld. Like the cheres, little chaotic spirits coming to Athens to celebrate the spring festival of Anthesteria and drink of the new wine led by their Lord Dionysos, so the rephaim arrive from the realm of death led by Baal to eat and drink for 7 days.

The Liturgy of the sacrifices of darkness-"You are summoned oh rephaim of the underworld" . But apart from the rephaim also some past and present kings are summoned, and the king is invited to descend with Shapshu (the sun) to the underworld. During this (ritual?) descent to the realm of death 7 sacrifices are brought - and a bird (as sacrifice?). It is not possible to deny a strong connection between the often rather rich and lodge-like marzeah institutions in the West Semitic area and the cult of the rephaim invited to marzeah

There's an intriguing balance involved between the rising spirits and the descending feasters and the 3 day periodic has it's counterpart in the 3 day drunkenness festival of Osiris, the Wagy Feast, which was held at the time of year when Orion was rising as the Sun was setting, thus visible over the entire course of the night, and it seems that the role of the King and his entourage would be to descend as the Sun, Bel/Shamash, whilst the Lord of the Underworld rose, and of course the King would also be expected to rise again empowered by the Underworld.

It is Baal who at the New Year's feast brings the dead heroes to life . In the great Ugarit epos about the fighting of Baal his is finally enthroned on the Mt.Saphon with the words: "Let them install Ba'lu on the chair of his kingship" . After that the rephaim are summoned to come, the sun being the one who has to lead them up from the netherworld. Their leader is Baal, the rephait

Byblos the Marzeah

In the Ugaritic texts it is Habyon the horned Devil that arises from the Underworld as the doors are opened as El descends through drunkenness, and there was the association of El as Chronos/Saturn with the Sun, and there is in essence an axis raised were the King has descended into the depths whilst Habyon has ascended the heights, similar to the raising of the Djed column in Egypt

The name of the planet Saturn is in West Semitic KVN, "standing firm" "standing upright" about the world pillar, The temple for Resheph was full of obelisks standing in the temple yard, in our opinion an assembly of gods. Uranos invented, according to Philo of Byblos, "animated stones", the so-called baityloi or Betels (bet = "house", el = "god"). The many baityloi standing in the sacred temple yard next to the holy lake are the souls of the leading men of Byblos passed over into a state of eternity as "'ilim (= gods)". In Ugarit "'ilim" is used as a parallel to "rephaim". . El Cronos = Resheph was surrounded by a circle of "allied eloim (=gods)"

In Hitite/Hurrian myth Teshub has to counter a Basalt stone Pillar that has been created and raised from the Underworld by Kummabi/Enlil/El/Dagon/Chronos that represents a New World Order with the potential to destroy the world, which i outlined in Origins of the New World Order, but it was also the case that in order to create strategy and gain alliance at the onset of that myth cycle he himself descends into the Underworld and drinks with the Gods there in a feast hosted by Allani, the basis for the Mazreah feast was likely Hurrian as first practised in the North West Semitic region and if it is the descent of Baal/Teshub that was celebrated then that would be toward restoration of what Kummabi raised, in effect taking charge of the process, were Teshub then rises to confront the prevailing order, there are two possible interpretations a controlled descent towards good intention or the raising of Hell.

Baal Peor and the Marzeah Feast

Gaia and the Marzeah

Banqueting in Honour of the Gods

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Another great post Where content is king this helps as it has a few layers to it and helps make better sense of The Last Supper and what it might have meant to pre-Christian thought... Its like the story was told but got badly distorted over time and created different schools of interpretation . I guess we see the same old same old today .

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I just star and flag your posts
whatever they are

you could do one on obese chipmunks
and I will star and flag it

the rise of fat Mexicans in football
a S&F for you

The temple for Resheph was full of obelisks standing in the temple yard, in our opinion an assembly of gods. Uranos invented, according to Philo of Byblos, "animated stones",

don't know if the obelisks were covered in Electrum do you ?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

That's true the basis for this is highly complex and ancient, there seems two aspects involved, that of El Chronos/Saturn descending into the underworld through descending into total degeneracy and raising the very Devil Habyon or the more controlled descent of Baal as Jupiter towards engaging the powers of the Underworld to counter that which was raised by Saturn.

If one considers the rites of Bacchus/Dionysus those would generally suggest very much the former, though also it is suggested they served as a basis toward understanding and that the initiate could go on to lead a normative role in society, in Christian terms the harrowing of Hell and the raising of the dead at the climax of the Easter narrative likely had it's basis in Baal-Shamash's descent, Saturn and Jupiter were themselves seen in cyclic balance with the former ever looking to undermine the latter.

a reply to: kibric

That's funny and thanks, the Egyptian obelisks are the only one's i'm aware of that could be covered in electrum, the unification of Gold and Silver as the Sun/Moon, the pillar that Kummabi/Elil/Chronos raises in the Hurrian epic representing the evil New World Order is of Basalt, straight out of a volcano/Hell known as Kabkabu;

Seven youths and seven maidens are exalted, and [...] the Star (kabkabu). The bricklayer will lay the bricks by the double doors of Ellil, father of the gods and the Star has established him as representative to Ellil, father of the gods. Ellil, the father of the gods performs the magic. Spell of the Star. [...] I have bound you on Zazaum, O no-good one. [...] O Sun-god! May you lay the bricks and build the house of Ellil the father of the gods. [...] The Star is appointed as the emissary to Ellil the father of the gods.

The translator has translated Kabkabu simply as star, because kb-kb was NW Semitic for star but i think rather the Spell Kabkabu more properly relates to a volcano of that name within the Habur triangle, it's like the story of Loki, Haby or the no good one has been bound within a volcano and that those were seen as that place from which stars are born and return to die, the primeval fire

Kawkab is a volcano in Northeast Syria. It is 534m high and overlooks Hassakah city. There are two basaltic cones in the volcanic field. The second cone is located in the foreground, lower than the main cone(400m).

The myths did involve actual places were they were considered to have been realized.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

If one considers the rites of Bacchus/Dionysus those would generally suggest very much the former, though also it is suggested they served as a basis toward understanding and that the initiate could go on to lead a normative role in society, in Christian terms the harrowing of Hell and the raising of the dead at the climax of the Easter narrative likely had it's basis in Baal-Shamash's descent, Saturn and Jupiter were themselves seen in cyclic balance with the former ever looking to undermine the latter.

I haven't studied what you bring up ,but I see the archetypes . Which brings to my mind Paul telling us that" had they of known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" ... They new a lot of the story but the details of the crossed were hidden .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Yes because the purpose is always to enter into the underworld and use that as the basis for power and an ascending force in such sects, normally though this was only symbolic based on an understood continuity of life within the underworld, that those unseen life forces could be harnessed.

This sort of understanding was of course the preserve of few and highly secretive elite groups in the Near East as well as the Greco-Romano world, though the basis can be sourced through the common myths, often in Semitic Temple complexes there were two Feasting places, that of the Marzea and a larger for the general devotee, both of the same religion but only the elite group given to understand.

Also the Marzeah in purposely undergoing the degenerative condition toward underworld empowerment is the basis for what is known as the Left Hand path or Black Magic involving all sort of Necromantic associations.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Another interesting fun-fact, is that in Hebrew, Saturn is called Heb שבתאי or in English translit. «Shabathai», same word as found in their name of Saturday Heb. שבת «Shabath», comparable to Lat. Dies Saturni. The word Shabath refers to resting, and since Saturn is so slow-moving it was named thus, the Slow-moving or Resting Star

A good read, do you know of any good printed literature about these customs? I must admit it looks a little too good to be true, I have to look into this more closely, it does however look intriguing

I also paid notice to your reference to the Greek word θίασος or Thiasos. Don't you think it sounds very similar to the name Jesus?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sabaoth is generally considered to relate to the Heavenly hosts, the stars and planets, if the term also relates to Saturn that would make it sort of the star of stars for the Hebrews, but there was also the cult of Jupiter Sabazios.

The first Jews who settled in Rome were expelled in 139 BCE, along with Chaldaean astrologers by Cornelius Hispalus under a law which proscribed the propagation of the "corrupting" cult of "Jupiter Sabazius,"

Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same.

Sabazios

The Greek term Thiasos maybe sort of sounds like Jesus, but an easier way to make the connection is Dion-ysus

Works in print regarding this are referenced at the end of the Byblos Marzeah article, but i don't think there's much, and really weird is that nobody seems to have made the connection with Christianity, or at least not published such.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

Works in print regarding this are referenced at the end of the Byblos Marzeah article, but i don't think there's much, and really weird is that nobody seems to have made the connection with Christianity, or at least not published such.

Seeing how the believers treat critics and think-for-them-self-ers here at ATS, and how they treat and demonize anything not KJV-- well I doubt any scholars of any field would want to publish it. Besides, these rites may be followed by people even to this day, so they might get pissed off too if linked to Jesus, but I agree, it's rather odd if this stuff is indeed genuine. One would have to be lame in the brain (well, we sort of ARE lame in the brain all of us, but you get the point) not to see the obvious links here.

looks like it sucked to be king back in them days takes a week to have dinner .
( KING skeletal ) as servants resite ten thousand pages and the priest does his bit and the .
well you get the idea two monts later finy done only to find him mummified .
and that is how Egyptians learned how to do it .
Mite as well ( lieking trump more ever mint ( heck with pomp just give me stake with ketchup

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That's true your average Christian won't want to know any of this and the Elites themselves prefer things that way, the tradition is certainly genuine, academics discuss the evidence but they're not going to speculate and unless the implications are put to the wider audience the subject will remain obscure.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that a form of the Bacchic rites became widely practised by the European elite of the Neo-Classical period through the extent of illustration and reference in poetic works, that this once again became the inner religion of an initiated elite and led to the accusations of Devil worship through the raising of the horned Deity or Satanism with regards to the cult of Cronos/Saturn

a reply to: Kantzveldt

That's true your average Christian won't want to know any of this and the Elites themselves prefer things that way, the tradition is certainly genuine, academics discuss the evidence but they're not going to speculate and unless the implications are put to the wider audience the subject will remain obscure.

I am Christian and have no fear or confusion about this stuff . I do have a lack of understanding overall but the dots keep sinking in to one another .

I think the problem is where you say it is and they seem to want to protect the believer by not talking about this stuff .The Bible does touch on it but is not the main focus of the Biblical narrative . Usually when Bible teachers come across this stuff they shurg it off as a kind of mystery . Context is always going to be king and so knowing what the differing neighbors believed helps to give better resolution to the Biblical picture .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

It could be pointed out that critics have practically no understanding of the basis of the religion anyway in the deeper sense and that whilst the average believer also has little Theological understanding they do have the intuitive spiritual grasp through taught tradition, because another important aspect which i haven't addressed here but which is seen in the symbolism of seven is that of the seven spirits or auras that were considered to ascend from within the Earth/Underworld and to be all permeating within nature in their unrefined form, the origin of these was associated with Ruha Qudosh or the Holy Spirit when refined, which is simply the rejection of the untoward natural inclination.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That's true your average Christian won't want to know any of this and the Elites themselves prefer things that way, the tradition is certainly genuine, academics discuss the evidence but they're not going to speculate and unless the implications are put to the wider audience the subject will remain obscure.

"IN THE BEGINNING, John Hagee created religion. No other attempt to solve God has existed before Moses, amen, pass the collection plate. "

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Seeing how the believers treat critics and think-for-them-self-ers here at ATS, and how they treat and demonize anything not KJV-- well I doubt any scholars of any field would want to publish it. Besides, these rites may be followed by people even to this day, so they might get pissed off too if linked to Jesus, but I agree, it's rather odd if this stuff is indeed genuine. One would have to be lame in the brain (well, we sort of ARE lame in the brain all of us, but you get the point) not to see the obvious links here.

Out of all that spiel what exactly did you say? The OP says -"The institution of the Mazreah is know from the 3rd millenium BCE;" Are you implying this was copied by Jesus and instituted at His last supper? If so what does that make your Quran being you also claim the same Jesus? You embarrass yourself with nothing obvious in any links to the last supper of the Nazarene's [Not Christians]. Christians have not as yet been invented when the last supper took place. You need to stay with your own little book. You do need a good teacher.

a reply to: Seede

As silly as this may sound, Christianity is two millennia old, parts of it even as old as this crap, and what do you know, billions of people hold these traditions to this day! In religion, old was always the new black. If we are to believe the Jews, the seder meal is as old as old as Abraham, and to some it is seen as a form of substitute for human sacrifice. It is said Abraham did it. Although after having sacrificed Isaac to Moloch he soon changed god, took on kosher practice and sacrificed goats instead.

ETA: And btw I never owned a Koran, not that I wouldn't, I just never bought one. I am an atheist, you just don't get that silly. If you refer to my avatar, it is a pic showing the standard of the Sinclair family with my bolas on top. The Sinclairs traditionally claim direct descent from Jesus. The surrounding ornamentation is a pattern made from Maltese crosses, the symbol used by the only remaining Catholic military order, the Johanites AKA The Knights of Malta. My crap detector runs wild every time you show up, Seede. It always did, even with the batteries missing.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

a reply to: Seede As silly as this may sound, Christianity is two millennia old, parts of it even as old as this crap, and what do you know, billions of people hold these traditions to this day! In religion, old was always the new black. If we are to believe the Jews, the seder meal is as old as old as Abraham, and to some it is seen as a form of substitute for human sacrifice. It is said Abraham did it. Although after having sacrificed Isaac to Moloch he soon changed god, took on kosher practice and sacrificed goats instead.Text

Wow - You certainly are one confused atheist. But I am pleased that this ruffled your feathers somewhat in that it did get your attention. I am not clear as to what crap you refer. Is it this thread or this posting or the millions of people that you say you are superior to who believe in Jesus?

No, the Seder meal is not as old as Abraham. Abraham died in 1638 bce and the Exodus was in 1312 bce. That is according to the Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia. That would be over 325 years from Abraham to the Exodus. The Jews were not even invented during Abraham's time so Abraham did not take on any sort of kosher affair whatsoever. Actually 3655 years ago Abraham was smarter that you are today. He has eternal life and you have nothing except certain death.

I do not believe you can show a source for Abraham sacrificing his son. It did not happen and Molech was not involved in that affair whatsoever.

My crap detector runs wild every time you show up, Seede. It always did, even with the batteries missing.

Sleep well and try to get that crap detector fixed with new batteries. It is giving you wrong information in almost everything you post.

But what were they drinking?

Adrenochrome?

a reply to: Seede

I am not the confused one here. Look at yourself! The seder is supposedly older than Passover. Moses is supposed to have simply substituted Abraham's goat with a lamb, but the human sacrifice parallell remained though. If you can believe it, it started with Abel killing Cain's pets, resulting in Cain killing Abel-- or even earlier, the whole shambles by the Tree of Knowledge. It all boils down to sacrifice. See how Saulus changed the seder into a human again, and further how the Church replaced Passover with Easter. And Jesus didn't institute the Communion/Eucharist either. Melchizedek did. In the days of Abraham again, or for that matter, even that goes further back to Eden again, and the Tree of Knowledge. Buzz word is substitute sacrifice. How the ancients justified animal slaughter and war by example of these stories and vice versa, and its bloody footprints goes on even further in Christian tradition until this day, where both plant, human and animal sacrifice altogether has ended up being substituted by Tom & Jerry, Itchy & Scratchy.

Look up Richard Elliott Friedman and his contributions to the reconstruction of the Documentary hypothesis which was originally proposed by K.H. Graf and Julius Wellhausen about a century earlier (who further based their work on the so called Fragmentary Hypothesis proposed by Jean Astruc in the 18th century). However Graf-Wellhausen's initial hypothesis sort of collapsed during the latter part of the 20th century, due to serious flaws in the initial research as well as its seeming incompatibility with the developing field of textual criticism and acknowledgements like hw we don't have any arcaeological evidence to back up the research (which for that matter could be said about the whole Bible altogether).

The Torah is apparently a jigsaw puzzle made from at least 10 distinctive sources (4 main larger chunks, 6 lesser). These chunks of text reflects different, sometimes conflicting theological legacies, and were supposedly redacted into-- and reshaping the Torah corpus-- over a period of roughly 500 years from the days of Solomon to the Babylonian Exile, after which the Torah remained largely untouched until this day. Despite of the controversies and the collapse of Graf-Wellhausen's work towards the end of the 20th century, Friedman's updated version of this hypothesis is often celebrated by scholars, and is taught at most (if not all) universities and theological faculties. However, like all such hypotheses they have their weaknesses, and controversy is the rule, but you can't seriously study the Torah and there by the Bible-- without taking this research into account.

As much as you would like that your own understanding of everything you believe is 100% irrevocably correct and true, my guess is that you won't give this research much more than a mere glimpse-- for after all, you seem bewitched by the man in your mirror.

Info on the Documentary hypothesis:
Quick and dirty ==> imp.lss.wisc.edu...
More in-depth ==> www.biblearchaeology.org...

Suggested literature:
==> «The Bible with sources revealed / a new view into the five books of Moses»
by Richard Elliott Friedman ISBN 978-0-06-073065-9
-- Basically a translation of the Torah using different text styles to highlight the different sources
==> «Who wrote the Bible»
by Richard Elliott Friedman ISBN ISBN-13: 978-0-06-063035-5
-- Simply a very thought provoking and well written book that restored and rejuvenated the Documentary Hypothesis

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sabaoth is generally considered to relate to the Heavenly hosts, the stars and planets, if the term also relates to Saturn that would make it sort of the star of stars for the Hebrews, but there was also the cult of Jupiter Sabazios.

The first Jews who settled in Rome were expelled in 139 BCE, along with Chaldaean astrologers by Cornelius Hispalus under a law which proscribed the propagation of the "corrupting" cult of "Jupiter Sabazius,"

Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same.

Take a look at this ==> Greatest Conjunction aka Bethlehem Star ==> Saturn/Jupiter alignments and how it resounds with ages and Messianical Judaism.