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Why We are Divided

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posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: KnightFire

im pretty sure Im not the one who is missing any points




posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 12:40 PM
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a reply to: veracity

No. I'm not.

What you are ignorant of is the real reason the cake isn't being baked. You think I am refusing just because the person asking is gay.

Nope.

Does the gay person want a birthday cake? Sure. I will bake that. 4th of July cake? Sure I will bake that too. What about a cake for his (or her) grandmother? OK. None of this is the issue. The gay person isn't the issue.

The idea of the wedding is the issue.

What you can't seem to understand is that for some sects of Christianity, wedding is one of highest holy sacrements, and God (followed by Jesus again in the NT) defined clearly what sort of marriage is blessed, and that is only one between a man and a woman. Marriage imagery and language is used over and over to refer to the relationship between God and the church. So the marriage ceremony between man and woman is a very holy thing, sacred and not to be mocked.

Some Christian sects feel that a marriage between man and man or woman and woman is a mockery of what God, himself, clearly defines and holds sacred and God is not to be mocked.

Now, we respect not all feels this way, so gay marriage is allowed, tolerated, but this is why we ask not to be forced to participate in one, even tangentially. The concept makes us uneasy, not because of gays, but because of the implications of mocking God.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: veracity

No. I'm not.

What you are ignorant of is the real reason the cake isn't being baked. You think I am refusing just because the person asking is gay.

Nope.

Does the gay person want a birthday cake? Sure. I will bake that. 4th of July cake? Sure I will bake that too. What about a cake for his (or her) grandmother? OK. None of this is the issue. The gay person isn't the issue.

The idea of the wedding is the issue.

What you can't seem to understand is that for some sects of Christianity, wedding is one of highest holy sacrements, and God (followed by Jesus again in the NT) defined clearly what sort of marriage is blessed, and that is only one between a man and a woman. Marriage imagery and language is used over and over to refer to the relationship between God and the church. So the marriage ceremony between man and woman is a very holy thing, sacred and not to be mocked.

Some Christian sects feel that a marriage between man and man or woman and woman is a mockery of what God, himself, clearly defines and holds sacred and God is not to be mocked.

Now, we respect not all feels this way, so gay marriage is allowed, tolerated, but this is why we ask not to be forced to participate in one, even tangentially. The concept makes us uneasy, not because of gays, but because of the implications of mocking God.


you mean to say that what I am ignoring is that some sects of christianity misinterpret the bible and portray bigotry in the name of Jesus Christ?

That is blasphemy.

Bday cake, uncle's cake...doesnt matter, that is not the issue, quit deflecting. Its about the wedding cakes. Bottom line...you think Gays should not marry bc you are a bigot... and you want cake-bakers to hide behind the bible so they can push their bigotry onto others.

if you are too weak and "uneasy" about respecting gays...then dont open up a public bakery, or anything to do with a wedding.

Not only is it illegal, Jesus would be ashamed.

It is people like you..."FAKE CHRISTIANS" that keep me from going to church. I would never want to put myself around people like you, even if once a week on sunday. I want to keep far away from you...you guys are hypocrites and evil on earth.


edit on 6-6-2017 by veracity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: KnightFire

What?

That division was in place long before Obama was even born, or even his grandfather.

Did he do much to fix it? Maybe not. But save some of that blame for others we can name, as well. Demagogues come from all sides of the political, and social spectrum.

No one man, or woman, no matter how spectacularly incompetent, can or should shoulder the entirety of the blame for the social and political ills that beset us.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 01:14 PM
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a reply to: veracity

Now wait a second.

If I am not allowed to be separate from what you think, feel, and believe, then why are you allowed to keep yourself separate?

I am not allowed to separate myself from the things I do not like because you call that bigotry, but here you go doing the same.

I know; I know ... you excuse yourself because you think you have the moral high ground, fighting bigotry and all that, but you've been staring into the abyss a bit to long, fighting monsters and all that.

This is why we should aspire to live and let live, not stamp out perceived bigotry. Because when we go on crusades against bigots, we become what we fear.

PS - Since I am needing buy a new top and you are the expert here in what is allowed, what color am I safe to buy? And since you are the expert on what is allowed, what food should I feed my family this weekend? I would not want to commit some acts of food and clothing bigotry and separate myself out from the rest of you according to veracity.

edit on 6-6-2017 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 01:19 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: veracity

Now wait a second.

If I am not allowed to be separate from what you think, feel, and believe, then why are you allowed to keep yourself separate?

I am not allowed to separate myself from the things I do not like because you call that bigotry, but here you go doing the same.

I know; I know ... you excuse yourself because you think you have the moral high ground, fighting bigotry and all that, but you've been staring into the abyss a bit to long, fighting monsters and all that.

This is why we should aspire to live and let live, not stamp out perceived bigotry. Because when we go on crusades against bigots, we become what we fear.

PS - Since I am needing buy a new top and you are the expert here in what is allowed, what color am I safe to buy? And since you are the expert on what is allowed, what food should I feed my family this weekend? I would not want to commit some acts of food and clothing bigotry and separate myself out from the rest of you according to veracity.


i excuse myself from bigotry bc I am not a bigot, I do not think that I deserve special rights and I especially treat everyone I meet with respect and would never want to be rude to anyone bc of an interpretation of the bible.

there is no such thing as food / clothe bigotry. Please just stop

and i will say it again...intolerance to bigotry is NOT bigotry

edit on 6-6-2017 by veracity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 01:32 PM
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a reply to: veracity

Again, you are failing to see the point.

I have conceded over and over again that marriage should be something for the parties involved to decide. That is freedom and tolerance for all points of view on marriage, but in order for this to work, we *all* have to put on our big boy and girl pants and realize that not everyone will have the same beliefs on marriage.

That's where the idea of respect comes in. You want me to respect your views on marriage? Then you have to respect mine.

You don't want me to force my views on you? Then you likewise need to stop forcing your views on me.

This is two-way respect. No one asking you to like beliefs you don't agree with, only to respect that in order for everyone to have the freedom to hold their own personal beliefs on the matter, then we have to allow for all of those myriad views. You do not get to play morality police on this anymore than I do. It does not do to label views you do not like bigotry just to force people to accept your own personal beliefs on the matter.

I've already told you more than once. Gays can marry. Where I draw the line is when you ask me to participate in it. Are you next going to tell me I am bigoted if I don't attend a Muslim marriage?



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 01:45 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: veracity

Again, you are failing to see the point.

I have conceded over and over again that marriage should be something for the parties involved to decide. That is freedom and tolerance for all points of view on marriage, but in order for this to work, we *all* have to put on our big boy and girl pants and realize that not everyone will have the same beliefs on marriage.

That's where the idea of respect comes in. You want me to respect your views on marriage? Then you have to respect mine.

You don't want me to force my views on you? Then you likewise need to stop forcing your views on me.

This is two-way respect. No one asking you to like beliefs you don't agree with, only to respect that in order for everyone to have the freedom to hold their own personal beliefs on the matter, then we have to allow for all of those myriad views. You do not get to play morality police on this anymore than I do. It does not do to label views you do not like bigotry just to force people to accept your own personal beliefs on the matter.

I've already told you more than once. Gays can marry. Where I draw the line is when you ask me to participate in it. Are you next going to tell me I am bigoted if I don't attend a Muslim marriage?


no, YOU are missing a very big point. Of course gays can finally marry, it doesnt matter that they have your blessing. If you are very bigoted and do not want to participate in a gay marriage, then dont put yourself in the line of business that works with weddings bc gays have weddings as well.

You are a bigot and there is no polishing a turd so quit trying and I will never respect your views as long as they are bigoted, I really dont care if you respect mine.

Now I will quit wasting my time with you on this subject.

edit on 6-6-2017 by veracity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: veracity

Right.

So now we're back to me and people like losing my right to freedom of association if we do not believe like you do because that might occasionally interfere with what you would prefer to think and believe.

And what happens the next time a difference of opinion comes up on a social issue and someone dares to differ with your preferred belief there? Will you banish them from society too?

That isn't how it works in an actually society of liberty. And that's always been my point and this is how we get divided. You don't want liberty. You want to force people who disagree with you to either believe the way you do or to erase them from life.

Your kind are dangerous and yes, you find them all over on all sides.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:38 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

lofl, right to freedom of association?

What is that?

You mean freedom of religion...yup, you still get that, however, you dont have the right to be a jerk to someone just bc they are different, just as you do not have the right to put a sign outside your bakery saying "we do not serve gays".

Please do not twist this into me being wrong and you being correct bc I am trampling on your "right to freedom of association", lofl

the more I converse with you the more it gets funny...ok, next post...



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: veracity




however, you dont have the right to be a jerk to someone just bc they are different, just as you do not have the right to put a sign outside your bakery saying "we do not serve gays".


You most absolutely do. In turn, others have the right to not do business with them.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:47 PM
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a reply to: veracity




You mean freedom of religion...yup, you still get that, however, you dont have the right to be a jerk to someone just bc they are different, just as you do not have the right to put a sign outside your bakery saying "we do not serve gays".
Why should anyone be forced to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding if they don't want to? I don't go to a Jewish deli and try and force them to sell me bacon.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: D8Tee

thats sweet (not) that you wouldnt buy bacon, however, not everyone has to be like you.

"wah wah, quit trampling on my right to being a jerk...errr, umm, i mean freedom of association, wah wah"



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: veracity




however, you dont have the right to be a jerk to someone just bc they are different, just as you do not have the right to put a sign outside your bakery saying "we do not serve gays".


You most absolutely do. In turn, others have the right to not do business with them.


nope, sorry, its against the law and also against what Jesus would have wanted. You dont have the right to discriminate...sorry.

If you feel you just must be a jerk, then dont get in the wedding business, or bacon business or any type of business actually, just be a hermit in your home, dont ever leave, you can be as miserable as you want there. No one can stop you.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:55 PM
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originally posted by: veracity

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: veracity




however, you dont have the right to be a jerk to someone just bc they are different, just as you do not have the right to put a sign outside your bakery saying "we do not serve gays".


You most absolutely do. In turn, others have the right to not do business with them.


nope, sorry, its against the law and also against what Jesus would have wanted. You dont have the right to discriminate...sorry.

If you feel you just must be a jerk, then dont get in the wedding business, or bacon business or any type of business actually, just be a hermit in your home, dont ever leave, you can be as miserable as you want there. No one can stop you.
So I can force a Muslim to make me a Bacon wrapped wedding cake?



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 04:56 PM
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a reply to: veracity

Race/color/religion. Being a jerk is not listed. Sexual orientation is not there yet either.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 05:04 PM
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originally posted by: D8Tee

originally posted by: veracity

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: veracity




however, you dont have the right to be a jerk to someone just bc they are different, just as you do not have the right to put a sign outside your bakery saying "we do not serve gays".


You most absolutely do. In turn, others have the right to not do business with them.


nope, sorry, its against the law and also against what Jesus would have wanted. You dont have the right to discriminate...sorry.

If you feel you just must be a jerk, then dont get in the wedding business, or bacon business or any type of business actually, just be a hermit in your home, dont ever leave, you can be as miserable as you want there. No one can stop you.
So I can force a Muslim to make me a Bacon wrapped wedding cake?


your case prob wouldnt fly, however, it IS plausible for a gay person who wants to get married to have a cake at their wedding...yes, they can sue.

You could try but I think the judge would see right thru you.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 05:06 PM
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originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: veracity

Race/color/religion. Being a jerk is not listed. Sexual orientation is not there yet either.


?

not sure if I understand you.

what I am saying is that discrimination is illegal. business owners have to be very careful knowing that in how they treat their guests as well as their employees.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: veracity

They can not discriminate based upon race, color or religion. That's it.

Other than that, it's at the owners discretion.

No shoes, no shirt, no service.



posted on Jun, 6 2017 @ 05:33 PM
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This shouldn't have to be said......


but discuss the topic, and do not bicker or diss each other.
Go After the Ball, Not the Player!


Community Announcement re: Decorum
We expect civility and decorum within all topics.



and, as always:

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