Is the threat of eternal damnation necessary

a reply to: dfnj2015

I suppose I forgot to add that you view this as a threat.

It's not. It's just the way it is. If "A," then "B." If you stick your hand in the boiling water, then you scald off the skin.

There's no threat there anymore than there is with the boiling water. It's only your resentment of the consequence that implies the threat.

originally posted by: ketsuko
*yawn*

Like everything in life, choice carries consequences. You can leave the pot of boiling water alone on the stove or you can stick your hands in it. No one is stopping you. Why don't you stick your hands in that nice boiling water?

I'd wager it's because you know the consequences of that course of action would be unpleasant. Is the threat of burning necessary to keep you from scalding all the skin off your hands? Do you feel that threat every time you boil water on the stove?

Do you resent that knowledge that if you stick your hands in the boiling water it will scald the skin off your hands?

I am guessing not.

But doesn't GOD believe in what he teaches, that we all should turn the other cheek? Perhaps its our understanding of external damnation which is at fault. If eternal damnation is reincarnation then it may have purpose. To learn to love and accept all sentient beings by experiencing their life, their loves and their fears.

Without that goal what is the point of existance anyway!

originally posted by: dfnj2015
You would think the divinely inspired word of God would be more advanced with human psychology.

See if you can follow the psychology of a man, said to be a man of like passions as we are, when he is outside of God's will and not communicating with God as he should. Read

1Ki 19:1 ¶ And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and withal how he had slain all the prophets with the sword.
2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger unto Elijah, saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by to morrow about this time.
3 And when he saw that, he arose, and went for his life, and came to Beersheba, which belongeth to Judah, and left his servant there.
4 But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.
5 And as he lay and slept under a juniper tree, behold, then an angel touched him, and said unto him, Arise and eat.
6 And he looked, and, behold, there was a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water at his head. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again.
7 And the angel of the LORD came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat; because the journey is too great for thee.
8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.
9 ¶ And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
17 And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
19 ¶ So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.
20 And he left the oxen, and ran after Elijah, and said, Let me, I pray thee, kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow thee. And he said unto him, Go back again: for what have I done to thee?

a reply to: glend

God offers relationship, you decide if you want to be part of that relationship
If you don't want to be with God, God won't force his relationship on you.

Simply, God just allows people to exist beyond His sphere of control, outside relationship with God is hell

a reply to: glend

So now sin is an attack against God?

No.

It's pretty simple. If "a," then "b."

There is the route to forgiveness, but most refuse to walk it. That is "turning the other cheeck" you claim to want.

a reply to: dfnj2015

It is for lost scum that need to convince others they cannot pass them in power.

Anyways all types like that are going to be summarily removed from existence...wanna help?

originally posted by: ketsuko
*yawn*

Like everything in life, choice carries consequences. You can leave the pot of boiling water alone on the stove or you can stick your hands in it. No one is stopping you. Why don't you stick your hands in that nice boiling water?

I'd wager it's because you know the consequences of that course of action would be unpleasant. Is the threat of burning necessary to keep you from scalding all the skin off your hands? Do you feel that threat every time you boil water on the stove?

Do you resent that knowledge that if you stick your hands in the boiling water it will scald the skin off your hands?

I am guessing not.

*Yawn* keep telling yourself it is about choice.

And consequence...all belief systems attached to the fallen ones will be destroyed.

Truth will be very stark indeed...won't need to be concerned with THEIR truths.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Yes, the Bible never mentions abortion. That's why I said only by having a moral compass firmly rooted in the golden rule can someone of good moral character be able to navigate morality decisions with modern day complexities.

The boiling water episode is not a threat as it is a teaching or informing one to not be foolish. Especially a child that is being taught.

Abortion is taught in oral Torah and in written Torah as a sin. It is a blessing in Judaism to have a child as you can read in the story of Abraham and Hagar and one who is childless is considered forsaken by God. To become impregnated is a joyful experience for the Godly and it is a sin to murder that which the Lord God has blessed. It is not specifically mentioned by the translation of the word abortion but is taught to the Hebrews that it is murder in the oral and written Torah.

I am not saying that abortion does not take place in Israel at times but it is a last resort of all solutions. An abortion must go through a committee and is considered with the differences of Orthodoxy, Reformed and Conservative beliefs.

Quote
According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics report from 2004, in 2003 most abortion requests were granted, with 19,500 legal abortions performed and 200 requests for abortion denied. Reasons for termination went as follows: the woman was unmarried (42%), because of illegal circumstances (11%), health risks to the woman (about 20%), age of the woman (11%) and fetal birth defects (about 17%).[2] Women who would not qualify for an abortion under the statutory scheme may seek an abortion at a private clinic.

It was reported in 2012 that about half of all abortions in Israel were performed in private clinics, i.e., without committee approval. Women who undergo such an abortion do not face criminal penalties, but physicians who perform them face a fine or up to five years' imprisonment; but there have been no known prosecutions of physicians for performing non-committee-approved abortions.[3] It was also reported in 2007 and 2011 that about 40,000 abortions take place in Israel every year, about half of them committee approved.
Unquote
Source [url=http://]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Israel[/url

As you read this keep in mind ------
Demographics of Israel is about 8.6 million people of which 6.5 million are Jews and only about 5% of those 6.5 million are Orthodox. I am referencing those 5% Orthodox Jews which are less that half million Jews that adhere to Torah teachings of abortion [murder] ---- The rest of the assorted 8 million are not regarded as biblical Jews. As you can see, Israel has a mess too.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: glend

So now sin is an attack against God?

No.

It's pretty simple. If "a," then "b."

There is the route to forgiveness, but most refuse to walk it. That is "turning the other cheeck" you claim to want.

No I didn't say sin is an attack against GOD. I entertained that the concept of sin in Christianity could be misleading.

Did Constatine go to heaven after killing his eldest son and wife. Because he followed the route to forgiveness by washing away his sins on his death bed thus achieving a life of sin and heaven too?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: glend

God offers relationship, you decide if you want to be part of that relationship
If you don't want to be with God, God won't force his relationship on you.

Simply, God just allows people to exist beyond His sphere of control, outside relationship with God is hell

I agree with your statement wholeheartedly but we may differ on the definition of GOD and hell. In Buddhist terms I try to ignore the whims of my material senses for a higher spiritual cause (GOD) in the hope that one lifetime I can escape from reincarnation (HELL).

I am an atheist and I don't need the threat of damnation to act morally. I treat other people how I would like to be treated because I have empathy for them. It is better that way.

A lot of times, religious people have the idea that they don't have (or maybe they aren't able to have) empathy with non-religious people because they don't share their preconstructed belief system.

So religion can actually get in the way of empathy.

Still, religion appears to be an important trait of humankind, dating back far before Christianity or even Judaism. It does band people together.

a reply to: darkbake

Well that's great, but
What of Mao, Stalin Pol Pot, plenty of others, even some non atheists have committed horrendous crimes lacking any morals.
Maybe morals in atheism are subjective and some things you do are horrendous to others but not to you
Subjective morality
Who decides what is right and wrong.
Stalin considered humans as nothing more than animals, slaughtered millions, hitter considered Jews sub human, slaughtered millions, based on subjective morals

a reply to: glend

Sounds noble but we are flesh and blood at this stage
It would be strange to deny the obvious
We are both and both must take care of others and ourselves, even those who disagree
Love is not just spiritual

a reply to: dfnj2015

Secondly, you seem to not understand there is NO THREAT OF ETERNAL DAMNATION or ever will be.

ALL men are condemned to hell because of sin they have in them from the womb.

It is Jesus who made a way for all men to escape that condemnation by taking the penalty upon himself and bearing it on the cross, dying as a ransom for your soul, giving you new life.

I will say it again THERE IS NO THREAT OF ETERNAL DAMNATION, we are all going to hell because we are sinners plain and simple.

You can be good as you want, you can love each other, you can give to the poor and save the planet but when you die without Christ blood you go to hell, the eternal altar of fire to be a sacrifice for your own sin forever, because you rejected Jesus Christ ransom for you.

a reply to: dfnj2015

So I am guessing you never read nor saw the psychological progression of depression that leads to suicide in 1 Kings 19?

It is there in plain sight most miss it, but every step is there.

1) He did not confirm the news that Jezebel pronounced with God. For us that means to take it to God in prayer and check it to God words in the preserved AV Bible. He took this evil report and let it fester in his mind. We do that as well whether it be a termination of a job, loss of family, just you name what it may be for you a broken car, loss of you limbs, or a loss of your home. All of these are the evil that befalls us all. 9 times out of 10 the evil report in and of itself is nothing, it is once we believe nothing can be done that leads us down the trail of depression or psychological break down.

2) He heard the news and became fearful for his life. Fear is the mother of all psychosis.

3) He took measures into his own hands and ran for his life. Many well meaning people try and do it their way and it will always end in failure.

4) He began not allowing any friends around him and secluded himself from others. Being alone is never good. For one to stew in their mental fears only leads one down a trail of depression and self destruction.

5) Then he lay down to sleep. One of the things modern psychologist have noted about depression is that people will stay in bed for hours more than necessary, sleeping constantly eventually they get insomnia and it makes things worse as they try and stay in bed more and more. Staying cooped up and with no one around to talk too are extremely dangerous to that person.

6) They are not eating or eating properly, there diet is a mess, a poor diet or no diet will add to ones depression. notice he ate and went back to sleep, this sleep was needed and gave him good rest once a good diet was in his belly. When he awoke and had to eat again. This Angelic power bar and energy drink he had eaten and drank twice sustained him for 40 days.

7) Usually the whole depression thing is a way God wants to get us to turn to him, not other men, not doctors but him. When God gets us to where he wants us we can pour out our complaints and reassert our relationship with him today that is through Jesus Christ.

If he had done the communication part in the beginning he would have never had wasted the many days he had and had been more of a servant during that time helping others instead of wallowing in self pity and depression.

My Point is this story shows us that God is fully knowledgeable of the Psychological makeup of man for he made us and knows us even if we do not know him.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

...having the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent sin.

well OK "eternal" is a big word, only used for marketing, its more like you spend a life time on an primordial planet, with no technology and science and comfort and modern luxury, OK with other sinners, to build an civilization from scrap, takes many generations, maybe the 10 Commandment archetypes (conscience) starts to grow and evolve in the off spring.

SOURCE:
satoconor.wordpress.com...

a reply to: galien8

here is what the law, that includes Covetousness, is said to do

Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

And you would like to go to a primordial planet and use the Ten Commandments as a basis of growing and evolving a conscience? When all it will do is grow and evolve sinful lusts and death.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: galien8

here is what the law, that includes Covetousness, is said to do

Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

And you would like to go to a primordial planet and use the Ten Commandments as a basis of growing and evolving a conscience? When all it will do is grow and evolve sinful lusts and death.

no the 10 Commandments will emerge again from the damned population and come in the genes of the off spring OK after many generations, then the primordial planet becomes a normal prosperous planet (after these many generations) with decent people and a civilization

Ionian - timely. As in, the opposite of timeless.


The church view on the Bible is a children's story. The entirety of Christianity is mystery religion. You cant read the English kid story version and try to discuss as an adult!

1 Enoch 69:12 the Bible doesn't mention whatever your preacher says it doesnt mention. So you trust a 501c3 with your soul or what..

There is no THREAT of eternal damnation in the Bible. o

It is a manufacturing tale made by certain men to draw followers after themselves.