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Is the threat of eternal damnation necessary

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posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:26 AM
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a reply to: Indigohues

I agree.




posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:26 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Here are some.


Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23
The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16
God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24


skepticsannotatedbible.com...



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: EternalShadow

I like when people have brains and actually use them! Good post. Sometimes I think our omnipotent God created man so He can experience the thrill having limitations by sharing our experiences.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:33 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Here is some more. The skeptics annotated bible is a fine resource for seeing these passages under an atheists scrutiny.


I don't know how I missed this before, but I did. There is a biblical way of having an abortion. A method that is not only approved by God, it was invented by him. He describes it himself in the book of Numbers (5:11-31).
It's a bit long and complicated, so I'll break it up for you.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ... If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner; Numbers 5:11-13
The first thing to notice is the context. This procedure is only intended for married couples, specifically for any man that suspects that his wife has been messing around. No proof is necessary; suspicion alone is sufficient to God.

Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon ... And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water ... And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD ... and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse.... (5:15-18)
OK, I am leaving some of the details out here, so if you're going to try this at home, make sure to follow God's instructions exactly. There's no guarantee any of this will work otherwise.

And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. 5:19-22
This is the part that fooled me. I get the idea that if the woman has been unfaithful, then the magic bitter water will do something awful to her. But I wasn't sure just what. What does it mean to have your belly swell and your thigh rot? But then I saw the footnote in the NIV that said it meant this: "cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb."

So if the woman is guilty (had sex with someone besides her husband), then the bitter water will make her unable to have children in the future. And if she is pregnant at the time, it will abort the pregnancy.

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled; Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law. Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.5:27-31



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:35 AM
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a reply to: Woodcarver

What is a shekel? You make a damning post of the Bible's content. Your post could be it's own thread. Those are some interesting passages and you have some interesting interpretations.



27 “When he makes her drink the water, if she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings a curse will enter her to cause bitter suffering; her belly will swell, and her womb will shrivel. She will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is pure, she will be unaffected and will be able to conceive children.

29 “This is the law regarding jealousy when a wife goes astray and defiles herself while under her husband’s authority, 30 or when a feeling of jealousy comes over a husband and he becomes jealous of his wife. He is to have the woman stand before the Lord, and the priest will carry out all these instructions for her. 31 The husband will be free of guilt, but that woman will bear her iniquity.”


There seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. The idea of a "curse" seems like a fairy tale when you consider how amazingly consistent science has shown nature's behaviors are carried out. I think the Bible needs to be read with a grain of salt. It should be considered religious poetry not to be taken out of the historical context in which it was written. It should not be thought of as literal truth. Again, the essential message is being moral in the present is important even though the modern mind is very critical of the words the Bible uses.


edit on 2-6-2017 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:49 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: dfnj2015
As for morality, life in the universe could not exist if that condition was not for the basic thought that life, all life, is sacred and should always be treated as such.


With science most people think God is dead and nothing is sacred. It's very difficult to convince people the word "sacred" has any meaning.

I'm not sure "life in the universe could not exist if that condition" is true.
What meaning do you give the word sacred? Atheists don't think god is dead. We think god never existed and people invented it to keep people scared.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:52 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Woodcarver

What is a shekel? You make a damning post of the Bible's content. Your post could be it's own thread. Those are some interesting passages and you have some interesting interpretations.



27 “When he makes her drink the water, if she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings a curse will enter her to cause bitter suffering; her belly will swell, and her womb will shrivel. She will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is pure, she will be unaffected and will be able to conceive children.

29 “This is the law regarding jealousy when a wife goes astray and defiles herself while under her husband’s authority, 30 or when a feeling of jealousy comes over a husband and he becomes jealous of his wife. He is to have the woman stand before the Lord, and the priest will carry out all these instructions for her. 31 The husband will be free of guilt, but that woman will bear her iniquity.”


There seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. The idea of a "curse" seems like a fairy tale when you consider how amazingly consistent science has shown nature's behaviors are carried out. I think the Bible needs to be read with a grain of salt. It should be considered religious poetry not to be taken out of the historical context in which it was written. It should not be thought of as literal truth. Again, the essential message is being moral in the present is important even though the modern mind is very critical of the words the Bible uses.

It all makes more sense if you see god as an invention of simple minds. Try it.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 08:59 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

I do understand why the bible is used to keep people in line. I do understand why people have such faith in the good parts of the bible. I understand why people want a god to be responsible for their thoughts and actions. It takes all of the blame for their misdeeds out of their hands and makes it the fault of god. Hence the scape goat christ. In the story, god #ed up and had to make a fix. Bang. Scapegoat.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 09:20 AM
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To the OP, I spent two years digging in a standard KJV Bible, and here is a distillation of what I found on Hell and damnation:

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”

2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.

9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.

12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living humanity.

14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.

15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…

17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.

19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 09:29 AM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: dfnj2015

I do understand why the bible is used to keep people in line. I do understand why people have such faith in the good parts of the bible. I understand why people want a god to be responsible for their thoughts and actions. It takes all of the blame for their misdeeds out of their hands and makes it the fault of god. Hence the scape goat christ. In the story, god #ed up and had to make a fix. Bang. Scapegoat.


You strong and excellent mind. The purpose of religion is to answer four existential questions:

1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. What does it all mean?
4. What is going to happen to me when I die?

You make some fine points in your post. People look to religion show they do not have to think. It is map for how they are supposed to live their life with meaning.

I still think my OP has relevance within someone with your point of view. I will just add one more question to the list for you. As an atheist, why is having any morality important? I don't mean to imply atheists are immoral. I'm just trying to understand what is the source of your values as an atheist?



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 09:38 AM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short

Terrific post! Nicely done. Good work.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 09:43 AM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short

Hell doesn't exist - yet Adam and Eve were banished from paradise.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 10:21 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Hell doesn't exist - yet Adam and Eve were banished from paradise.


I think our omnipotent God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

The ten commandments cover it. The one about not killing. Jesus said something about hurting little ones. Don't see why a fetus shouldn't be counted out just cause the are notborn yet. God new you before you were born into this world



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

The fallacy here is trying to determining this morality business via the Bible.
All religions are given to humankind to cause order among human societies.

In strictly dealing with arguments for biblical statements--every one written in the hand of man--is a fool's errand.
Truth and understanding are not to be found in such early cerebral exercises.

Morality is the ultimate definition of consciousness as defined by humans. That basic point is that all life is sacred. That is the universal truth from which all else thinking and arguments spring. I see that few humans can see that point because they are bound by various remnants of religiosity, wanting to equate it solely with human individual consciousness and old thinking. Such a pity.

(And abortions are killing. That truth cannot be avoid by fancy wording or selected quotes from the Christian Bible. If you deprive a germinated life form, human or acorn, of growing into that life form's potential, that act of extinguishment is killing, pure and simple.)



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 11:26 AM
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Eternal damnation

Burning in hellfire

Skin melting off

Carbonization

Scary stuff

Wouldn't wish that on my WORST enemies

There is a way to avoid it

Believe that God is One and do good deeds.



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 11:28 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Slavery again
The bible is teaching christians how to act in love. It's not a book of laws for the world
It was written to Jews, to christians
The law is love, it's not a civil law book
Stop confusing it as a civil law book

Abortion is not love in most cases, though God allows humanity to make decissions for themselves

Many atheists hate christianity because it is so regulated, then now you want to have more laws instigated, that's bizarre
As for hell, it's their, it's a fact, like it or not, should it lie?



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 01:21 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
And what is the best strategy for having a moral society or a society where behaving morally is important?

And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. (Romans 12:2)

I.e., braintraining vs brainwashing (and propaganda) Of course, the biggest most succesful brainwashers will always present their brainwashing as spiritual enlightenment or knowledge/science and braintraining or a proper education as brainwashing as per their demonstration of Isaiah 5:20,21:

20 Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe to those wise in their own eyes

And discreet in their own sight!


Here's how braintraining works (again I'd like to stress that the real brainwashers are arguing that this is brainwashing and they really don't like the word "obey"):


edit on 2-6-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 02:03 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Terrific post! Nicely done. Good work.


Thank you!



posted on Jun, 2 2017 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Hell doesn't exist - yet Adam and Eve were banished from paradise.


Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden, and still on the Earth.



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