Plot holes in the bible and what the motivation for it would be

a reply to: DiaJax


I am sure you are not the first.

Narrow it down to a specific incident I will do my best.

It helps as I actually own the Zohar and all the books I spoke of. Not the Talmud though it is available in full at 'Come and hear.com"

Ask away. I explained Lucifer, how it's a myth even in Christianity non A Biblical. Ilike to go a question at a time.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

First I need to understand the key differences between the three Religions: Judaism, Islam, Christianity. Understanding the differences may shed more light on how each of these parties operate.

All I know is in Judaism Jesus was a prophet of God and Christianity he was the son of god. I have no understanding of Islam.

Lucifer is a Latin word, derived from Hebrew, hê·lêl.

hê·lêl — 1 Occurrence
Isaiah 14:12
HEB: נָפַ֥לְתָּ מִשָּׁמַ֖יִם הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־ שָׁ֑חַר
NAS: from heaven, O star of the morning, son
KJV: from heaven, O Lucifer, son
INT: have fallen heaven star son of the dawn

Isaiah 14:12 King James Version (KJV) : 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:12 New International Version (NIV) : 12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Isaiah 14:12 New Century Version (NCV) : 12 King of Babylon, morning star, you have fallen from heaven, even though you were as bright as the rising sun! In the past all the nations on earth bowed down before you, but now you have been cut down.

Yeshayah 14:12 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) : 12 How art thou fallen from Shomayim, O Heilel Ben Shachar (Bright One of the Dawn, Day Star, Lucifer)! How art thou cast down to the earth, thou, which hast laid low the Goyim!

Lucifer ( Morning star, Day star ) is not an Angel. It's a title to the King of Babylon in the eve of fallen Babylonian Empire. It has nothing to do with God, Heaven, Angel, Devil etc..

Some idiots later link Isaiah 14:12 to Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

So the plot hole here is not created by God but by idiot men themselves.

originally posted by: DiaJax
a reply to: Disturbinatti

First I need to understand the key differences between the three Religions: Judaism, Islam, Christianity. Understanding the differences may shed more light on how each of these parties operate.

All I know is in Judaism Jesus was a prophet of God and Christianity he was the son of god. I have no understanding of Islam.

They share the same root goes back as far as Adam and Eve. Even Islam preach Genisis. Interestingly, Quran add more detail to history of Satan than Bible. You should read the Quran for more stories.

originally posted by: DiaJax
a reply to: Disturbinatti
All I know is in Judaism Jesus was a prophet of God and Christianity he was the son of god.

Jesus the son of God?

Wrong.

Christians believe in individual salvation from sin through repentance and receiving Jesus Christ as their God and Savior through faith (and in some Christian traditions, good works). Jews believe in individual and collective participation in an eternal dialogue with God through tradition, rituals, prayers and ethical actions. Christianity generally believes in a Triune God, one person of whom became human. Judaism emphasizes the Oneness of God and rejects the Christian concept of God in human form.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: DiaJax

So your telling me that in order to understand this "literary device" I would have to become a believer? You have access to knowledge beyond my comprehension?

That’s what the promoters of every religion want infidels to think. In fact they have less knowledge than well-informed unbelievers do, because they are required to believe claims that are in conflict with physical reality.

One more thing could you enlighten me to the relationship between Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. I feel that something happened between these three that shaped all of the holy books.

They are very different religions.

Primitive Hebraism was basically Religion 1.0, the kind of deal tribal peoples everywhere have with their gods: protection and favours in exchange for worship and sacrifice. The god of the tribe is thought of as superhumanly powerful and perceptive but not omnipotent; he is a slave to necessity and often to the laws of physics as well. He cannot foretell the future, nor even judge his own actions wisely at times, so that he regrets them later. He is also full of human malice and vindictiveness, as in the Book of Job where God is revealed as a gambler and a sadist. He is physically located in a certain place (the Ark of the Covenant, and later the Temple in which it was placed).

This kind of God is essentially a man or woman with superpowers to whom ordinary men and women turn for protection, and whose wrath they fear.

About 200 years before the birth of Jesus, by which time the Jews had become civilized through contact with the Babylonians, Greeks and others, Judaism had become more metaphysical and the concept of God had been considerably expanded and elaborated. Yahweh was now the only God in the universe. He had acquired omnipotence and omniscience.

These were all ideas that entered Judaism from Greek philosophy. They gained popularity with the rise of the Pharisee sect among the Sanhedrin. This era — Religion 2.0 — is known as Rabbinical Judaism, the Judaism of the priests. But it is better thought of as the Religion of the Philosophers.

Jesus was a rabbi: though his actual relationship with the Temple power structure is not discussed in the New Testament, he was a religious teacher and interpreter of scripture. And he brought a radical message: that we serve God best not through ritual and sacrifice, but by loving and taking care of other people. This was Religion 3.0, religion as a guide to daily life and conduct, and a relationship with the divine that was based on personal faith rather than tribal loyalty. God was now the source of all good in the world and offered eternal life and personal salvation to anyone — Jew or Gentile — who believed in Him and placed themselves in His care.

So much, at least, remains of Jesus’s original message. However, Christianity evolved rapidly into many forms in the first two or three centuries of its development before settling down into two principal streams whose differences were really more geographical and political than theological. Thus arose Religion 3.1: the concept of an omnipotent God in whom everyone could share was an idea that was perfect for the advanced, cosmopolitan civilization of the Roman Empire. It could be linked with Jesus’s moral teachings to be used as an instrument of social control. The Sanhedrin had been developing this aspect of religion since the days of Samuel, but the moral weight lent it by Jesus’s teaching gave it clout it never had before. In this upgraded form, it proved to be more effective than the cult of the Emperor in keeping the Imperial masses docile and obedient. In the long term, though, it helped bring about the fragmentation of the Empire, since loyalty to God always trumped loyalty to whichever ambitious chancer happened to be ruling at Constantinople.

Later Christianity and Islam are Religion 3.0: the degeneration of the concept of an almighty and ever-loving God back into an essentially tribal deity. Their rise coincided with the decline of Roman power and its disintegration into smaller polities; in fact, they were a result of that process. In a world reverting to barbarism, faith needed to renew its bargain with violence. Religion again became a badge of identity and loyalty to the local ruling order. Ritual and sacrifice (now interpreted as personal penance) made a comeback. Good faith was again conceived of as obedience — to the priests, to the state.

The universality of God came to be interpreted as a mandate to impose the faith upon others who are not of the same tribe.

Meanwhile, the concept of divine love and its imitation by those who would serve God broke down into the introspective, world-denying mysticism of the Sufis, St John of the Cross and St Theresa of Avila. Mystics became rebels because they emphasized the personal relationship with God rather than the religious duties mandated by the priests.

Wars of religion, which the Western world had not seen for over a thousand years, came back into fashion.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Jesus the son of God?

Wrong.

No, right.

I believe... in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

The Nicene Creed

But I don’t blame any Christian for being confused, because Christian doctrine on this subject simply fails to make sense.

a reply to: EasternShadow

The rabbit hole gets deeper.

This has been very enlightening but at the same time I'm just left with more questions.

They share the same root yet they are three separate entities. So could it be argued that at one point in history there was only one core religion?

If so it really makes you wonder what made them branch off. whether it was lack of communication between groups and oral traditions deviated over time? If there was an actual divide with the core religion?

Yeah I'll have to do some more reading so I can more appropriately look at this. the scope of this Idea has gotten very large and I cannot easily discuss it without getting more information on these other holy texts.

Understand those other books better will help me understand the overall picture. Once I can grasp that, then I can go back into individual stories to determine where there are variations/deviations for other texts. which in turn show the evolution of these religions and if I can tie it back into history there may be a way to determine if there was certain motivations to alter/omit/misinterpret the stories.

So what's the deal with Hell? Who runs that place and what is there relationship to religion?

Where is a good place to start in the Quarn?

a reply to: Astyanax

Well done!!
You certainly put much effort into this. I applaud you with a Star.

a reply to: DiaJax

So could it be argued that at one point in history there was only one core religion?

Yes. All pre-civilizational communities around the world practise the same kind of religion. In it, natural objects such as the sun and moon, stars, rocks, trees and animals are worshipped as gods. So are the ancestors of the tribe or hunter-gatherer band. These gods must be placated to avert ill fortune and may be bribed and flattered to provide favours, although they are capricious and cannot be relied upon. Communication between them and members of the tribe takes place through the gods’ authorized representative, the shaman, who, in a trance state, acts as a vehicle for their words and actions. There is an afterlife in the spirit world, but that is a mysterious and frightening place, which nobody dares to think about it very much.

originally posted by: DiaJax
a reply to: EasternShadow
Yeah I'll have to do some more reading so I can more appropriately look at this. the scope of this Idea has gotten very large and I cannot easily discuss it without getting more information on these other holy texts.

Holy texts referring to Abrahamaic Religion ( from Islamic perspective ) are Zabur ( The book of david ), Torah ( Moses ), The Gospels ( Jesus ) and Quran ( Muhammad ). One of Islam pillar of faith is to believe in this 4 holy books.

originally posted by: DiaJax
So what's the deal with Hell? Who runs that place and what is there relationship to religion?

I wish I could but it's not for me to tell you the stories of Hell. It's up to religion people out there.

originally posted by: DiaJax
Where is a good place to start in the Quarn?

The stories in Quran are scattered all over the book instead of a continuous narration, unlike the Bible. So I'm not sure where to start. You could begin with basic introduction of Biblical and Quranic narratives before you move into details in Quran.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
The Creation of Heaven and Earth

a reply to: EasternShadow

Thanks for your help.

Let the long read begin.

a reply to: DiaJax

In that case, allow me also to make a few reading suggestions. Books, I’m afraid, not websites.

A History of God by Karen W. Armstrong

Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari

The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, chapters 15-16, 20-21, 23, 28, 37 and 50.

The Garden of Light by Amin Malouf (a novel about the founder of Manicheanism, a religion now extinct but very important in the development of both Christianity and Islam).

In the Shadow of the Sword by Tom Holland

Millennium by Tom Holland

The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism by Karen W. Armstrong

‘Answer to Job’ by Carl Jung, reprinted in The Essential Jung, introduced by Anthony Storr

Those should keep you busy for a year or so.

a reply to: Astyanax



Yeah to say the least. Thanks

Let the really long read begin

To OP:

Muslims believe in one God and all the same Prophets Xtians do, plus Mohammed (sa) who is the "Seal of the Prophets."

Plus others, Zoroaster for instance is honored as a Prophet(pbuh).

Oh yeah we believe all religions can go to Heaven, even Hindus, Sabaeans who were the equivalent of pre-Abraham star worship are mentionied as eligible w/ Christians, Jews, Magians (Zoroastrians), etc.

Christianity can't make that claim, I don't know what Jews believe, some say Jews don't believe in Heaven or Hell but I think what they mean is not what they say by what their literature says, most are regular people though and I am sure beliefs vary.

Christianity is "No Jesus...KNOW HELL!!!."

Xtians BELIEVE they believe in one God but has 3 ever been 1? No. They believe "Jews killed Jesus" and 2,000 years of their pain at their ancestral hands is their own fault, this rejection of a Messiah who in Xtians mind is God.

Jews find the whole thing comical, God is the Messiah, Son of Himself, etc.

They follow the Talmud, a library of interpretations, rulings, legends and gap filler.

Which Muslims don't need, but have a similar situation with the Ahadith, although we do not elevate them above the Qur'an as Halakhic Jews do with Talmud, they are not something 90% of either religion's adherhents spend much time on, it's usually Rabbis and scholars and Imams and scholars


I avoid Ahadith unless it does what you made this thread to figure out...how can we know more.

The Qur'an says it lacks nothing so I have no NEED for the Ahadith literature but sometimes I WANT to know more.

Problem is Ahadith is a catalog of telephone game like narrations, so I am selective, I use what is in the books of Al Ghazali.

3,000 pages of it.

a reply to: DiaJax

Your whole trail of thought is flawed for one reason..free will.

He gave us the choice. Choose wisely.

I was actually expecting a question about the plot holes in the Bible so if you want to get back​ to that like I said, ask away.

My library is yours if you need information.

Of course then you have Karaites (neo-Sadducees), Samaritans who only uses the Torah of Moses and not the Prophets. They consider Joshua history, but not inspired.

Weird because the Samaritans are supposed to be the Babylonian Jewish heretics of N. Judea/Samaria, yet the "Real Jews" HAVE a book CALLED the Bavli or Babylonian Talmud.

There are about 500 Samaritans today.

Lemba Jews of Ethiopia that claim descent from Abimelech I believe through Solomon and Sheba, thinking Sheba was Queen of Ethiopia, although I don't think it was ever called that and Harran makes more sense as the hone of the Sabaeans, a mysterious word it is though.

It actually refers to Saturn the planet as I said Sabaeans/Sabians were star worshippers. They later worshipped Agathodaemon at Egypt too, Hermes was their Prophet.

If you want to really confuse things the Nazarene Mandaeans are also thought of as Sabaeans, or were at least.

John the Baptist is their Prophet (pbuh); they are admittedly Gnostics, Manda is Aramaic in the Mandaic dialect, Gnosis.

If you want to talk about "plot holes" pertaining to religion the Sabians of Harran are a huge historical plot hole nobody knows a thing about, generally speaking.

Hermetic literature from the Harranian Sabians like the Corpus Hermeticum and Emerald Tablets of Hermes (Trismegistis three times great, he was Seth, Enoch and Hermes/Thoth or some say Appollonius, maybe, it's only preserved in the Baha'i faith), what are known in Europe to many is nothing compared to the "Epistles of the Brethren of Purity."

Recently released in 10 some odd volumes by Oxford Press at 80$ a piece, vol 8 deals with the history of the Sabians of Harran. I don't see too many people buying that but among the mystic minded it's the greatest prize in quasi-Islamic mysticism that pre-dates the Zohar even, the whole series that is. It is not all about the Sabians but was the greatest source of influence in the late Medieval world unknown to most people.

Unlike the relatively famous Zohar, also it's rare that a Sufi even would want these books, wannabe Orientalist mystics and various odd fellows. But they definitely sound interesting and have been unavailable until recently outside of little known sects of mystics and some Academics.

a reply to: DiaJax
It's easier to invent plotholes if you present your own version of what the bible is supposedly saying. Here's where you're already going wrong:

"Therefore not only did he create Lucifer and the rebelling angels he would know that they were going to rebel."

You have a limited understanding how God's foreknowledge of events works. It is also likely you've never made much effort in trying to understand.

"So he could have easily waved his hand and made them all disappear or made angels that wouldn't rebel."

Plants and animals don't rebel, He made those too. Why should God restrict Himself to only one type of creature or creation? And again it's unlikely you've thought this through in regards to your argument about just making them disappear, because you much prefer to talk about supposed plotholes than trying to understand why God does things a certain way and not another way (which is already quite the project, trying to understand the mind of God).

"He created angels he knew would rebel just to send them to hell."

Well, that's totally based on misunderstanding or misinterpretations of what the bible is actually teaching about God and those angels that rebelled, or the Pagan concept of Hell that was adopted into Christendom, which is not Christianity. The straw man version of the bible that you are claiming has plotholes is pointless to point out if you're not going to address what the bible is really teaching about these subjects. Christendom has plotholes if you want to describe it like that. But Christendom is there to discredit the bible, it's a snare according to the bible, and you've fallen into the trap by thinking their teachings somehow represent the bible's teachings:
Religion is a Snare and a Racket