Plot holes in the bible and what the motivation for it would be

Nothing, and I say this both to be funny and serious, upsets a Christian more than a Biblically educated Muslim, especially since 95% have never read it and rely on what they are told, they make it easy.

You should see Deedat the Muslim scholar who invites Pastors to debate him and in their arrogance they end up angrily invoking hellfire and brimstone because that's all they know.

As debates go they are bloodbaths, he doesn't lose.

YouTube has it.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Prove me wrong. Try anyway.

I repeat - I already did.

You stead nothing I originally said could be found in the bible.

I gave you each and every verse straight from the bible - every one you said didn't exists.

Obviously as I found them and presented them to you - straight from the bible - they do.

So we're left with - I'm presenting truth you deny and refuse to see as truth.

Your choice.

Not the right one in my mind's eye but my opinion of you doesn't count.

peace

a reply to: Disturbinatti

PS - I'm not upset. In fact I'm quite pleased with myself thank you.

And yes, I'm in the so called 5% that does read and study the bible.

That being said I think your numbers are a little high on those Christian's you think do not.

Just another example of an ignorant student of a false faith that has to presume.

Sadly.

peace

Edit to add: I will look up those videos you were speaking of. I'd like to see which pastors were 'slaughtered' by your scholar.

Hilarious.

The second I stop commenting the thread dies and the only person left is the Islamaphobe who doesn't know that Abram was only called AbraHam after and because he passed God's test of loyalty. pbuh

Had he been aware God was just testing him God would have been aware of Abraham's being aware and it would not be a test, it'd be like cheating.

Even funnier and paradoxically​ sad is the fact that I can not help notice everytime any Muslim victoriously debates a Christian (and subsequently exposes the ridiculous lack of knowledge of the contents of the Bible they have, yet have no problem claiming to believe is the Word of God) the only response is to insult, with even less knowledge, Islam.

I might know your own scripture better than you but I also know it better than most Pastors, Priests and definitely Christians in general...

It's the fruits of my labor and I have a right to enjoy the fruits of my labor, if it means making you feel silly for saying the Bible is the Word of God when you don't know what it says about Abraham, pbuh, one of the most famous people in it and Patriarch of 3 great religions...so be it.

Hopefully it motivates you to stop talking about the walk and how well you do it when you are not able to stand even.

a reply to: silo13


Speaking of plot holes in the Bible...

I have a good one.

Christians who believe in Trinity violate the Word of God which never says Jesus pbuh is God or that God is 3 in 1.

Matter of fact in Mark Jesus pbuh said:

The Lord OUR God is ONE God.

Jesus pbuh can't BE God because he HAS God, is subservient to and depends on God.

"Of my own power I can do nothing."

Is another thing said that proves Jesus pbuh is not God, he is not equal in power.

The Words was with Tontheon (God) and the Word was theos(divine).

Is how Greek John 1 reads.

In summary, you insulted Islam, no big deal God's believers are always slandered, I take it as an honor.

Not because of what you know, but because you are not a Muslim and don't know anything about it or its history and are a casualty of war propaganda.


I am telling you that I have studied all 3 Abrahamic religions in depth, the Bible, Qur'an, Apocrypha, Zohar, Gnostic texts, etc.

And if you compare Christian theology to the Bible it doesn't fit.

If you read the Qur'an it is closer to the teachings of Jesus pbuh than anything you will read in "Paul's" epistles or hear from the preacher.

Because said preacher doesn't know or care about knowing, he wants you to believe HIM, not the Bible.

Because if you read the Bible you will learn Jesus pbuh is not God, never said he was, or asked for worship, refused to even be called "good" because "Only God is good."

And there is no Trinity. It's a Nicene pagan idea obnoxiously and nonsensicallly grafted onto the Gospel teachings of Jesus pbuh.

There are Christians who proffess Christianity as their religion but don't even know what Christ taught, and make him God.

And there are disciples of the Nazarene Messiah...called Muslims, who learned the truth from the Messenger of God saws Mohammed.

That there is no god but God and Mohammed is His Messenger.

Jesus pbuh was a Messenger and the Messiah.

Mohammed saws was sent to fix what false prophet Saul corrupted by falsehoods, as he himself admitted.

"If through my FALSEHOODS God's glory abounds why am I being judged a sinner?"

For sinning, Paul, lying IS a sin.

And sin never glorifies God.

Also Paul allowed eating meat sacrificed to idols.

In Revelation Jesus pbuh condemns this teaching and whoever teaches it too, if they don't stop.

Saul obviously lied about his revelations because he didn't learn from Jesus pbuh to teach what Jesus pbuh would later condemn.

If you want to talk about the negatives​ of a particular theology you should know it, but you should learn your religion first, you have not done either.

I can pull the Bible apart like string cheese, because I put in the effort and learned what it teaches.

Flawed though it is it still doesn't say "Jesus is God in a Trinity."

I am a Muslim specifically because I read the Bible, and the Qur'an is right, Christianity is not.

Christian theology is not based on the Bible but paganism, human sacrifice, godman cults. And narcissistic personality disorders.

It is sad you think you know so much, and no so little in reality.

Go in a Mosque some day, they will let you visit if you request to, no commitment required you can observe, I have had colleges, police officers and other groups visit my Mosque.

My first visit was to take Shahada.

Before that day I didn't know what serenity and peace was.

I did after and still do. I only wish you find the same, whatever your religion is.

We don't believe in the one religion only version of Heaven you guys do, so we don't have that obsessed need to "save souls" with threats of hell.

Don't even try deflecting by invoking wars that have nothing to do with Islam in reality, militias that pretend to be Muslim but are covert ops actually, do not form our theology.

Qur'an does. God's Word does.

The devil always wants to destroy good things by blaming them for the evil deeds of others.

His disciples always listen.

Islam is good, if you hate Islam you hate good, God and Jesus pbuh.

And can't hate Islam without hating all 3 too.

You can be confused, sure.

But still hate God, because God created Islam, is the founder of Islam. To be a Muslim is to submit to God's will in peace which brings peace, and only when justified are we to fight, like when oppressed or invaded, to protect your family and friends.

No ''Empire" in history grew as large as fast with as little bloodshed as did Islam's, and nobody contributed more to the advancement of science.

Europe learned all science through Arabic translated into Latin, would have lingered in the Dark Ages otherwise for a lot longer.

Compare Europe in 800AD with the Islamic Empire and you have, in Europe, a cesspool of filth and ignorance.

Except for Muslim Spain which was the most advanced city on Earth at the time, along with Baghdad and many others it's like comparing America (Islamic Empire=gold) today.... to excrement today(Europe).

I am European too.

I am a Muslim specifically because I read the Bible and the Qur'an is right, Christianity is not.

This my big issue with religion right here. The idea that someone can have a false religion therefore a true religion must exist.

Religion is a belief system that becomes apart of your identity. Most people are born into their faith. Generally speaking, most people like who they are, and by extension they also like the religion they associate with. This identity with religion can be so strong if one were to insult someone's religion it were as if they insulted them directly. There is an amazingly strong human bias that is connected to ones own belief, ideas, and culture. It at the heart of what really makes humans weak.

We love ourselves so much that when someone questions why we are the way we are, we get hurt, We lash out, We kill. Why? because the world didn't conform to what "I" believe to be correct. Its not the religion that's the issue its our own self love that blinds us to a world of trust and happiness. Humans are the problem not religion.

sorry for the mini rant.

I do agree with Distrubinatti about the story of Abraham.

It ceases to be a story as soon as Abraham knows Isaac will be safe.

Little background. I guess it was very common back in the day to do child sacrifices arguably the norm. So God asking Abraham that to sacrifice his child would still be a big deal but because it was common practice it wasn't thought of as a crazy act like it be would today.

Also it was because of God Isaac even exists so Abraham enjoying the life and the child that God gave him its not that far fetched that he would agree to do this. Obviously he would rather not but when your God asks....

So Abraham is put in the worst position imaginable. lose your son or lose your God (at least on the surface). So basically the craziest test of faith.

If he knows God won't kill him why did they even bother writing the story. It makes it look like God and Abraham are playing the worst practical joke on Isaac.

"Oh hey Abraham could you go the mountains with your son Issac and "sacrifice" (wink wink) him to me"

"Not Isaac, but if you command my lord I'll "sacrifice" (wink wink) him to you"

the political motivation for the story:

"Monotheism the only religion where child sacrifice is not an option."

Some more plot holes.

Revelation and the Gospels, Acts, are clear there are only 12 Apostles.

Matthias replaced Judas, and if you want you can assume the only person eligible, Justus, replaced the first Apostle to die in Acts because ad Luke states the requirements for being an Apostle and he is the 1 person who meets them.

Yet you think you have a 13th apostle.

Who never met Jesus pbuh, as anyone who has read his epistles knows, he knew nothing about the man Jesus pbuh.

Revelation revealed that there are 12 Apostles of the Lamb.

And there are those who SAY they are apostles but are not, are liars.

Paul is the latter.

And anyone who worships the Trinity will be told:

"I don't know you."

Because Jesus pbuh said so, that some will call on him having believed they were his disciples.

"The Lord OUR God is ONE God." Says the Messiah.


"No, Jesus (pbuh), He is 3 in 1 and you are God."


Is the churches reply.

I wonder who is right, the churches of the pagan Trinity...

Or Moses, Jesus (pbut) and Mohammed (saws) who all agree God is ONE.

a reply to: DiaJax



I get why people have problems with religion to a degree.

You had the forced conversions and persecetions not of but BY Catholicism, the Inquisition and Crusades.

But that is one religion that has victimized many and in this case 2, slaughtering the population of Jews and Muslims of Jerusalem is a permanent stain on A religion.

Despite probably what most people imagine Islam has NEVER practiced forced conversion for a simple reason. It's wrong.

2:256 "There is no compulsion of any sort in matters of religion, for the right way stands clearly distinguished from the way of error."

It is against our Law.

You can dislike religion, it's fine, I don't judge you for questioning ​things.

I will just offer advice, you can take or leave it.

You should not have an issue with religions because religions teach people morals, you have probably been sold a negative image of all religions, it's an elite agenda to destroy our basis for morality so we have no morals.

Religion is like life, you have a choice between following good or evil, nobody is all one or all the other.

Religion is inherently harmless, a philosophical ideology with a real God.

And religous people are usually salt of the Earth types.

You have hypocrisy, of course, but don't paint everything one color with one brush, or assume that religion is the problem.

It's not.

It's corrupt people who achieve prominent positions in religion and decieve people, Creflo, Osteen, those televangelist types

Evangelism is a disease, that I will say.

a reply to: DiaJax


I can even join in if you are just saying what about the Bible is wrong...where to begin is the only issue!

I understand aversion to the story of Abraham, I laugh when a comedian says "If it were me I would ask for identification.'' or something similar. It's a mysterious story from a primitive era.

But we don't teach people to copy that one act, it is the way the author decided to display the devotion to God Abraham (p) had.

When people start copying the stories in the Bible is when it gets dangerous or weird.

People believing that snake bites can't kill them over an interpolated passage in Mark and dying, is stupidity.

Thinking talking in tongues is anything but a common 1AD idiom for speaking languages, and subsequently speaking gibberish and thinking yourself spiritual...is stupid.

And common.

I am a self educated man of reason myself and I can not understand why anyone would believe in most of the Bible, it is a disturbing book of all kinds of filth.

Why anyone would be a Christian after reading the Bible and comparing it to theology baffles me, most of theology is mans innovations post Nicea.

If the Bible is the Word of God, says God is ONE God, Jesus pbuh himself says it...

Why do almost all Christians worship the Trinity? It is not even in the Bible and Jesus pbuh is more than clear he is NOT God!!!

These are problems we would be in agreement on, if you agree that is

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I agree that religion is not the problem.

I also agree the majority of religions help to build a moral foundation to serve as guidance.

I don't agree that there is a right/wrong religion. At the heart of all religions in a effort to be better. better as a human, better as a community, and better spiritually (whatever that means). Unfortunately this is the message that always gets lost.

People get so hung up on the literal translations and interpretations. What to believe what not to believe. Its one of the first forms of escapism. Its a way to rationalize the world around you with out every having to actually understand the world around you.

IMO religion is about groups of strangers coming together and learning how to co exist. Its the first attempt at etiquette and manners and civility. Somewhere along the way it got turned into a clubhouse and lots of fun exclusionary practices were added like excommunication, shunning, and general disgust/hatred for the other. This is the exact opposite of what religion is supposed to be.

Greed is the deadliest of sins cause even it can pervert Gods words.

Side question: could you give me a crash course on the beginnings of the Quran.

I know everything branches off of Judaism at one point but I don't know when or why as it relates to the Quran

What really bugs me, personally​, is when people like Silo13 or whatever his name was, say things that the Bible doesn't as fact because so and so (some dude) said so.

Example:

Isaac was 30 when Abram went to sacrifice him (pbut), and Abram knew God was just testing him.

Besides being wrong, speculation and nonsensical, if you know you are being tested it is no longer a test, at least in this instance it is not debatable that Abram really did intend on sacrificing his son Isaac (pbuh)....

Because of it he becomes AbraHam.

This is theology 101 or Sunday school stuff.


But making Isaac 30 is a deliberate lie to make him the same age as Jesus (pbuh) at the time of Ascension.

So it can be claimed a "type" and that it "predicted" Christ.

Such nonsense deserves nothing but ridicule, Issac was a youth, it doesn't say how old but he was not 30.

a reply to: DiaJax


A crash course....sure.

Jews were wrong for rejecting a Prophet pbuh like Jesus.

Christians for making of him (p) a "god", God needs no partners, doesn't procreate to have a "son."

Trinity is wrong, absurd.

But Jesus pbuh was the Messiah and a Prophet.


Heaven is not "one religion only."

Women have equal or nearly​ equal rights. This is in 600 AD too.

As far as a crash course goes, to me those are the most important things I can relay.

Much is about Biblical Prophets, so is kind of like a "Midrash" or commentary on the Bible at certain parts, Midrash is a genre of literature in Judaism.

Other parts are historical, about the first Muslims, and requires a lot of Tafsir, which is our version of Midrash. It means exegesis

a reply to: Disturbinatti

That's why its better to treat them as stories. There is no deep information to be gleaned from them.

A great story is going to attract followers. If your familiar with Greek mythology they have amazing stories. What a very interesting collection of characters they had in Greek mythology. Just fantastic stuff. My personal favorite are the relationship power struggle between Zeus and Hera.

I guarantee you the Abraham story was the center piece of for the upswing in monotheism. In its time it must have been a fantastic story.

What strikes me as odd, as one who has investigated the writings of the 7th century Jews and Christians' history of the beginning of Islam is the support FOR Islam AGAINST Byzantium, in concert with Syrian and Egyptian Christians who decided it'd be better if we let these guys govern, they have got it going on!

And against​ Khosro of Persia.


John bar Penkaye, Syrian Monk, regarded Islam as the work of God to protect their "monastic station."

Our records say that too, about Syrians, known for piety.

Monophysites in Egypt collaborated against Heraclitus the Emporer of Roman Byzantium with Muslims, wrote John Nikiou.


And to boot, just like America is Israel's 'big brother' on the playground that is the globe today, Islam was from inception the protector of the Jewish people.

Because if not for them Rome would have forced itself into their desert haven and enforced conversion to Christianity, not even Christians, Nestorians that is, felt safe from the See of Rome.

But nobody had more to fear than the Jews from the Christians, because no matter how much time passes "they killed Jesus."

In many ways we have a plot hole in history, specifically​, WTF did Islam EVER do excep protect the Jewish people?

I really think it is all over one person named Sabbatai Svi.

Otherwise they have absolutely no reason to hate us, and we don't hate them as a group, just evil Zionists, and still hate is strong of a word to use because nothing good emerges from hate, we don't like political anything but especially political Zionism, Zionism is not a religion. It's a corrupt movement with a sick agenda.

It's like they forgot when in 1492 Europeans​committed religous-ethnic cleansing in Spain and the Jews who escaped were told that they should come to the Ottoman Empire and will be safe... they did and were.

Every time Europe took Jerusalem the Jews were expelled.

Every time we took it back they were welcomed back.

Traveling Jews could pray in a Mosque if no Synogogues were available but NOT in a Christian Church, lest they be tainted by pagan idols, that was their rule.

We didn't object. It was the idea of a Jewish convert to build al Aqsa Mosque, the Mount had been used as a Byzantine trash dump for centuries and Umar (p) ordered it cleaned and a new Temple built, a Sacred Mosque.

Now they have Goebelled the world into believing black is white.

a reply to: DiaJax


There is plenty of deep, esoteric meaning in the Bible, they are not just stories, nay.

That's just the simplest way to see it, but the truth is in the middle somewhere between myth and history.

In fact the Bible is exoteric and esoteric and allegorical and historical, you just need to know what is what and when.

4 layers of exegesis are the minimum according to Rabbinical tradition.

1 according to Christian, literal only.


I think if anyone would know how to interpret the Tanakh it is the Jews, not the Christians who can't interpret the short NT accurately without destroying 2,000 years of lies.

I.E. that Jesus is God (pbuh).

But they are stories with deep meaning, esoteric and allegorical as well as literal, and the interpretations varied.

As long as they don't contradict the literal they are all acceptable. That's the tricky part. The esoteric can't contradict the exoteric.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Your referring to the Golden age of Islam/Ottoman empire. Actually wasn't there an unrecognized Jewish prophet at that time what was his name.... Sabbatai Zevi. His story is very interesting.

Maybe you have heard of him. He claimed he was the messiah. Then converted to Islam. Still practicing Judaism as well as Islam. Live a full long life in the Ottoman empire.

half finished thought

a reply to: DiaJax

Depending on what you mean yes, tentatively because I wasn't talking only about the Ottoman Empire but was talking about them and actually did mention Svi already, so yes.

I was referring to the Spanish genocide of 1492 and the sanctuary given the Jews of Spain by the Ottoman Empire.

Quite the coincidence it was the same year Cristobal Colon, not Columbus and hfs I just figured out the root of colon-ization....

Wow. I have to thank you because I just had a revelation that I would not have had otherwise I talk to you now.

I will be back

a reply to: DiaJax


If Colombus, real name Crist-o-bal (Baal) Colon, invented colonialism or is its namesake, would either or make Colon-ialism a Roman Catholic endeavor?

1492

Marks the start of something big and evil and it is called justification for racist and inhumane acts in the name or thought, of racial superiority, using the Bible to say God wants it and the genocide of the 48 Continental territories now called States.

Maybe it was not the start but two significant events make it stand out and it's not a coincidence.