What if the goal isn't Pence?

I keep seeing people using the reasoning of Trump not being impeached because it would leave Pence as president and who would want Pence? But what if the goal isn't Pence? What if they brought him down along with Trump? Lets say the Russia thing works, why wouldn't Pence be taken down as well, he was part of the campaign also.

That would leave 3rd in line, establishment puppet, Washington insider Paul Ryan.



We know he has presidential ambitions and he has proven himself to be just another Washington insider. Remember when he said "conservative reforms can happen only with a Republican in the White House"? Well, we have one now and they have yet to do ANYTHING meaningful.

What does ATS think, does this theory hold water?

I a reply to: FauxMulder

Hmmm, I'd hazard a guess that Pence is less the goal than it is to simply entirely de-legitimize this Presidency. In doing so, they acheive the goal of derailing any of the Administrations legislative agenda. They also insure this is a one-off, one term Presidency.

Another objective is to take back the House in time for the 2020 Gerrymandering season, post census.

a reply to: FauxMulder

That would leave 3rd in line, establishment puppet, Washington insider Paul Ryan.

No, it wouldn't. The line of succession that you are thinking of applies only in the case of both the president and vice president being incapacitated and unable to fulfill their duties. In that case, then yes, Paul Ryan would assume the duties of president. But not in the case of impeachment.

Keeping in mind that impeachment does not necessarily mean removal from office (think Clinton), if Trump were to resign or be removed from office, then Pence would assume the presidency and choose his own Vice President -- subject to Senate confirmation.

If Pence were to resign or be removed from office, then Trump would choose his replacement.

Think Watergate... Nixon's VP Spiro Agnew resigned shortly before Nixon due to tax allegations, and Nixon replaced him with Gerald Ford, who then assumed the presidency when Nixon resigned, and then Ford chose Rockefeller as his VP.

a reply to: TonyS

Good point.

a reply to: Boadicea

are you saying if Trump and Pence were removed from office, Trump would still get to pick his replacement?

Impeachment is a lot more complicated than it seems most people think.

Impeachment In the United States

First the House must determine if grounds for impeachment exists. If the conclusion is that there is, then they must have a majority vote to an impeachment, and if there is, pass their findings to the US Senate.

The US Senate then does what is basically a trial. Once this part is order, the Senate then votes. To remove the POTUS from office requires a 2/3 super majority (one of the few that are actually required).

If POTUS is indeed removed from office this way, the Vice President is then sworn in as POTUS. As POTUS, he will then pick who is to be is Vice POTUS.

In order to remove Pence this whole thing would have to happen again.

If, by extraordinary circumstances that were to happen....whom ever Pence had picked as his Vice Prez, would then be sworn in.....and they would have to pick a new Vice.

You see how this is not as straight forward?

In order for Ryan to become POTUS, something would have to happen to both POTUS and VPOTUS at the same time.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Absolutely it's complicated and far fetched. I was thinking more along the lines that Trump and Pence would be found guilty and removed for the same thing. As in Pence would never get to be President. But like you said if that were the case, I guess they would still have to do the trails separately? Therefore he would have to be President if only for a short time and it would go to the next VP.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
Impeachment is a lot more complicated than it seems most people think.

...

In order for Ryan to become POTUS, something would have to happen to both POTUS and VPOTUS at the same time.

Yes, it would pretty much have to be a double assassination (if this is actually 'the plan', then obviously you could not just wait for some freak accident to occur).

- and all that just for getting Ryan in the White House even though he apparently was not enough of a puppet for 'them' to be able force him even to run.

Yeah, I don ot see it.

a reply to: FauxMulder

Long shot but possible.

1. Trump Impeached and convicted.

2. Pence becomes President and does not name a VP (no law says he would have to name a VP I think)

3. Pence Impeached and convicted.

4. Speaker becomes President (because no VP exists at the time).

a reply to: FauxMulder

Impeachments themselves take a while to get done, and of course are huge things. Only two US presidents have ever been impeached, Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1998, both were acquitted, both knew that there would be no super majority in the senate.

I know recently Hillary said that Nixon was impeached, which is not true, he resigned before he could be impeached, and if you do research on that, you'll find that Nixon was advised that the US Senate would more than likely not acquit him and that they would reach a 2/3 vote to convict. Which is why he decided to resign.

Having a POTUS or VPOTUS under go impeachment is a huge thing, it is also a very disruptive thing. It's certainly not done on a whim and certainly not done because people do not like a POTUS. It's highly in the public eye.

Attempt to impeach Trump, and fail? You're going to be held to task for that, especially by those that want Trump out.

Trying to impeach Trump and Pence at the same time, or one after the other? I don't think that would happen, as it would become very apparent then that doing it is nothing more than literally a coup attempt from the inside.

Will Trump ever be impeached? I would have to say: Only if they find hard evidence that he broke the law, and then it still has to get through the senate with a super majority. It might be possible for the proceedings to happen, but they (congress and the senate) know that they have to have some very damning stuff to make it work. All anyone needs to do is look at Clinton's impeachment to know that something that looks air tight doesn't mean anything in the world of politics.

In order to get rid of Pence, you'd have to do the same thing: prove that he has broken the law somehow too, which again, might not be easy to show.......nor even if it looks air tight does it mean he's gone.

To mean impeachment of Trump or Pence is a liberal wet dream, just as trying to remove Obama from office was a conservative's wet dream.

Right now from what I'm seeing is a lot of people are just throwing things against the wall, trying to see what sticks, and it seems that wall is like smooth glass. What they seem to fail to understand is: it makes them look really bad too.

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: FauxMulder

Long shot but possible.

1. Trump Impeached and convicted.

2. Pence becomes President and does not name a VP (no law says he would have to name a VP I think)

3. Pence Impeached and convicted.

4. Speaker becomes President (because no VP exists at the time).

Well, that would mean Pence was in on it - otherwise him not naming a VP could not be part of 'the plan' - and then it would make more sense for Pence simply to name Ryan as his VP.

So no, I do not see that one either.

The true objective is to find someone who will accept globalization for a small elite group that will lead the world to a totalitarian system (no rules for those in charge)

PEnce needs to look for a new job since he has already decided to go against trump in the next election. If i was trump i would get rid of him for the fact i could not trust him.

originally posted by: FauxMulder
I keep seeing people using the reasoning of Trump not being impeached because it would leave Pence as president and who would want Pence? But what if the goal isn't Pence? What if they brought him down along with Trump? Lets say the Russia thing works, why wouldn't Pence be taken down as well, he was part of the campaign also.

That would leave 3rd in line, establishment puppet, Washington insider Paul Ryan.

We know he has presidential ambitions and he has proven himself to be just another Washington insider. Remember when he said "conservative reforms can happen only with a Republican in the White House"? Well, we have one now and they have yet to do ANYTHING meaningful.

What does ATS think, does this theory hold water?

Interesting scenario. For that to occur, wouldn't both the POTUS and the VPOTUS have to be impeached at the same time? Is that even possible?

originally posted by: FauxMulder
a reply to: eriktheawful

Absolutely it's complicated and far fetched. I was thinking more along the lines that Trump and Pence would be found guilty and removed for the same thing. As in Pence would never get to be President. But like you said if that were the case, I guess they would still have to do the trails separately? Therefore he would have to be President if only for a short time and it would go to the next VP.

Well, the Constitution is too full of "implicits' and 'inferences' for them to be found guilty of much anything in the traditional sense. When reading the Constitution, it's apparent that the founders were in quite a conundrum about Presidential indictment. Truth of the matter is that if either are guilty of a crime, they cant really be prosecuted until after theyre out of office. In article 1 section 3 of the Constitution its stated:

Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law

thereby ensuring 2 things, that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a crime and that there is no double jeopardy protection from the crime committed.

It's purposefully ambiguous. Think about the reality of it, a President can pardon a federal crime and were it not for the clause, he could simply pardon himself.

Thinking that a President (much less coupled with a Vice President) could "go down" at the same time is as close to an impossibility as anything could be.

ETA: Though if for some reason both were someone incapable of fulfilling their respective capacities, that would be right. Which I'm ok with, but any further down the line I'm no as Orrin Hatch would be next in line after Ryan and if you look:



frankly he has a face that screams "Yep, I live on ex-lax, and nope they sure don't work"