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Jesus Christ could not have died for your sins .

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posted on May, 27 2017 @ 05:59 PM
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I understand this a very touchy subject. Always has been and for the foreseeable future, will continue to be.

I know I am not making any friends in continuing to post on this thread.

I have almost if not a complete lack of tact and I am ok with that.

Questioning a persons surroundings is usually fully accepted and applauded, even when the question goes against something you feel strongly about. Accepted almost everywhere except for this subject. Why?

Why are some people so strongly drawn to religion? Is it because we as a human race isolated our expression of spirituality solely to religion? Do each of us possess a spirit or soul that we each are aware of on some mindful level? And we cringe from that experience. No one will discuss it outside of certain restraints. It needs to be contained. Why? Why it is taboo?

Oh well, as a heathen I probably lack a soul anyways.




posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:05 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

What makes you say that?

Everyone does have a soul. You are neither doomed nor saved by your beliefs, but by your actions along the journey. We forget that...a lot.

There are many paths to journeys end, none is superior to the other, just different. The road itself matters not in the slightest, how you travel it does.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:06 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky




Why are some people so strongly drawn to religion? I


I can tell you I'm not at all drawn to rellgion. But I am drawn to Jesus Christ.




I know I am not making any friends in continuing to post on this thread.


Is that why you are here?



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:13 PM
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I've wondered the logic of this too. If I as a proverbial immortal know in advance that I'm just coming home after a mortal death, then...what was the personal point? A rudimentary novelty theme destination vacation? That's not a sacrifice if it's not a permanent loss to the concept of immortals like it is for us mortals. They don't die, they just go home. We die, we die. We don't get to go back to mortal home afterward.


edit on 5/27/2017 by Nyiah because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:16 PM
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a reply to: seagull

I don't really deny my soul. I just get frustrated sometimes. Maybe it was the consumption of too many things that shouldn't be mentioned, but I believe our soul/spirit projects. This projection can be felt and shared. All people have the ability to experience this but most, IMHO, lock it away. They lock it away tight. Some carefully explore this realm but under such restraints that it becomes almost a worthless journey.

I would love to see morals and religion separated. Not from some demon induced hallucination, but because I think it would elevate us as a human race. The undeniable truth that everyone has a soul. And with the restraints lifted, the ability to share these wonderful feelings and come together as we have never before.

The beauty of the human soul. Where you see it or see a story that righteously tells of the path, is one of the most beautiful and freeing things I have ever experienced. With tears of joy streaming down my face I try and make the moment last forever. Bliss.

For certain stories I try and get others to see the beauty of this reality and they just look at me like I am insane. They see my tears of joy and laugh. I am not ashamed but I am saddened that they do not see or feel it. What would this world be like if all people experienced the true joy of the soul?

Then I ran into a few like myself that also experienced this joy, that shed tears during the same parts of stories that I did and it made me feel less alone. And I recognized something within these people that I also shared.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: Nyiah

What if, this life, is but a step along a path to ultimate, or continuing, enlightenment? You wouldn't, necessarily, know this while here, but after?

Since we really don't know what, if anything, comes after...?

Just another instance of faith, I guess. A belief that there is something afterwards, and that there is a point to it all...



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:20 PM
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originally posted by: Nyiah
I've wondered the logic of this too. If I as a proverbial immortal know in advance that I'm just coming home after a mortal death, then...what was the personal point? A rudimentary novelty theme destination vacation? That's not a sacrifice if it's not a permanent loss to the concept of immortals like it is for us mortals. They don't die, they just go home. We die, we die. We don't get to go back to mortal home afterward.



This is like a redneck drowning in a vat of whiskey and fighting off his rescuer.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:21 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

I don't have any answers for you. If I did, my own faith would be much stronger than it is...


It's hard to describe ones own journey, I no longer really try, as everyone has a differing path--which is why religious strife is so very nasty and cruel--and to be avoided if at all possible.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:21 PM
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Jesus is God's son. He lived with his Father many eons of times before earth was created, and humankind in it. During creation there is a book in the Bible that refers to Jesus as wisdom personified. And it shows the relationship Jesus had with his Father in heaven, and the love Jesus had for humans, and the love Jehovah God had for his son Jesus. Perhaps you remember it:

Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,

When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,

 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,

When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,

 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;

 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

Proverbs 8:25-31.


Jesus Christ was sent to earth for a purpose. And he was not God incarnate as some people teach. Firstly God, Jehovah remained in heaven. And that is who Jesus prayed to while on earth. Second, he was transferred to the womb of Mary and born as a human. So he was not incarnate anything spiritual, he was actually born a human and lived and grew to manhood.

The difference is, he was perfect. All mankind descends from Adam and Eve and inherited imperfection from them. Jesus did not have a human father, his father is Jehovah himself. And thus he did not have imperfection. And he never sinned as a human.

And although you stated he never died, that is not true. He was hung on a torture stake until dead, and there were plenty of witnesses to that fact.

If you have life and you willingly give it away for someone else, that is a sacrifice. For sacrifice means giving up something that is yours. And it was a sacrifice on God's part as well, because as scripture above stated, Jesus was the one Jehovah was most fond of, out of all the angels, he being God's only-begotten son. that means, God used Jesus in the rest of creation, even his other spirit brothers, sons of God.

Jesus did not have to ever become human and did not ever have to suffer and did not ever have to die. That he did all of those things is a sacrifice. And he did not want to die slandered as a common criminal who was a blasphemer. He even prayed to God that he did not want to die that way. But he said, "not as I will, but as you will." So he told his Father he was willing to die an unpleasant death he did not want to have to face. But he willingly did it, for our benefit.

He gave a ransom. A ransom is an asking price for something. When a kidnapper takes a child and asks for ransom money for him, they are asking for a price set to release the child. The price of sin is a perfect human. God is a God of perfect justice. He being God, you would think he could change the rules to fit himself. But he is not that type of God, and sets the pattern for everyone living under him.

Justice is justice. And God was willing to pay the price to himself by allowing Jesus to offer up his life for our sins.

He is alive now, because he was raised from death to God's right hand. But the fact that he was resurrected and he knew was going to be, does not negate the fact that he had to willingly die, he didn't have to. And he went through the most grueling death you can imagine.

He was hung on a torture stake. It was called "torture" for a reason. He went through literal torment, he was tortured to death, he being innocent and he who loves with so great a love. The fact he allowed himself to go through the torture is sacrifice. He did not deserve it, and he didn't have to go through it.

He even told his apostles who tried to defend him, that if he wanted to he could call upon a legion of angels from Jehovah to protect him. It was something he willingly went through. He sacrificed himself for us.

Instead of saying he never went through what we suffer, it would be more appropriate to say, we have never suffered the way he was. And everyone reading this hasn't suffered to the point he did, which is death. For you are still alive.

Jesus was in the synagogues since childhood listening to the Scripture be read, and with is perfect mind he could remember all of it. And with God's holy spirit, he no doubt understood deep things in it, and prophecies, which you cannot even fathom or get a hold on. This no doubt do to God's holy spirit upon him.

I will give you a little example.

Jesus went into the synagogue where he was raised and read from the scroll of Isaiah, these words:

(Isaiah 61:1) . . .The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,

He then told those listening, that they had seen the fulfillment of that prophecy on that day:

(Luke 4:17-21) . . .So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.”

cont...



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:26 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: ClovenSky




Why are some people so strongly drawn to religion? I


I can tell you I'm not at all drawn to rellgion. But I am drawn to Jesus Christ.




I know I am not making any friends in continuing to post on this thread.


Is that why you are here?



I can not separate religion from the OT & NT. Why would you say your belief in JC is separate from religion?

Why am I here? I would be lying if I didn't admit that finding others who share my viewpoints is important to me. Not so much because of insecurities as it is to see if others have arrived at similar points on the road of life and to discover the path they traveled to get here/there.

I enjoy my ego. The ego is who we are. The consciousness. But I also understand the pitfalls of an unrestrained ego. To indulge in the ego without destroying oneself is a very narrow path. Has it caused my pain? Yes. Has it brought me rewards? Yes.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:28 PM
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cont...

There are other more profound things in prophecy Jesus understood perfectly well. For example when teaching by use of illustrations, and no one could understand what he was saying, not even the apostles, he became to explain things to them. Among the explanation was part of the prophecy in Daniel:

(Matthew 13:36-43) . . .Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

Notice the part in bold and see how Jesus was referencing a prophecy in Daniel 12:

(Daniel 12:1-3) . . .“During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. 2 And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt. 3 “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever.

So Jesus not only knew who he was, he knew deep and profound prophecies and explained them by use of illustrations.

In fact after he was raised from the dead he explained many of the prophecies in the Holy Scriptures pertaining to his death to his apostles. They did not understand them before then. Jesus already knew them and how he fulfilled them:

(Luke 24:15, 16, 25-27) . . .Now as they were conversing and discussing these things, Jesus himself approached and began walking with them,  but their eyes were kept from recognizing him...So he said to them: “O senseless ones and slow of heart to believe all the things the prophets have spoken!  Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?”  And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.

As far as his not knowing the human condition as we do, as sinners that is true. But he already suffered all things for us, so that he could plead to God on our behalf, he suffering all things we have, except without sin:

(Hebrews 4:15) . . .For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.

And because of that he has a name which no one knows except himself, and one which no one can master.

But he has also chosen 144,000 people who will go to heaven to rule with him as kings in his kingdom. And he takes them out of all walks of life, and being all types of peoples. And from among them, the kingdom will have the entire human experience, even as weak sinners who even committed horrible sins in the past. And they are declared righteous by God. And they also are given names which no one knows but them, and their Father. And they master a song no one else can master:

(Revelation 14:3) . . .And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

(Revelation 2:17) . . .To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white pebble, and written on the pebble is a new name that no one knows except the one receiving it.’



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:29 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: Nyiah
I've wondered the logic of this too. If I as a proverbial immortal know in advance that I'm just coming home after a mortal death, then...what was the personal point? A rudimentary novelty theme destination vacation? That's not a sacrifice if it's not a permanent loss to the concept of immortals like it is for us mortals. They don't die, they just go home. We die, we die. We don't get to go back to mortal home afterward.



This is like a redneck drowning in a vat of whiskey and fighting off his rescuer.

That applies extremely well to blind faith. That level of inebriation & belligerence is actually a great metaphor for it.

Explain how this dying for mortal sins works in the first place. Is Jesus a lovely anthropomorphic absorbent sponge? Where does all the sin he soaked up go? If he did not in fact do squat regarding it, then again, what was the point for an immortal to waste 30 years doing it?**

**Edit: "Doing it" meaning being mortal.
edit on 5/27/2017 by Nyiah because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:42 PM
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originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: ClovenSky

I don't have any answers for you. If I did, my own faith would be much stronger than it is...


It's hard to describe ones own journey, I no longer really try, as everyone has a differing path--which is why religious strife is so very nasty and cruel--and to be avoided if at all possible.



I am trying to get to that point, indifference. If the religious were indifferent it would make the road a lot easier to travel, but they are not. Not that long ago our entire society, to the point of getting a job was impossible if you weren't part of the special group, was ruled by certain religions. Live and let live I can completely understand, but only if that ideal was shared on both sides.

I try to stay well on the safe side of the line. I do not discriminate against the religious. I do not treat them any differently than anyone else I come into contact with. There are some religious that simply glow with peace and harmony that makes my soul dance in joy. But there are also a lot of religious that are very cruel and hateful, that hide behind religion as a shield when others become aware of their actions.

There are certain religious groups the persecute those that are not of their own strict beliefs. I have not run across any concentration of atheist or agnostics that behave this way. Maybe I am just sheltered. History is a great example of what could and did happen when the religious are in concentration with no social inhibitions against cruel actions. Many many stories. What does this say about those beliefs? Could the beliefs somehow rewire a person, change their biology? Why have we not progressed any further than we have as a society? Technology fine. Morals?

I just like to ask what if. I am not trying to be hateful, most of the time. Sometimes I see the responses and I do get upset, sometimes I like to give into that weakness.

I try to stay out of threads that are intended for believers, such a prayer threads. But I thought this was a really good OP with an unique and original question. Then instead of entertaining that train of though, I saw it get dismissed and dumped on.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:43 PM
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Your argument is perfectly logical. Clearly Rome had a problem. How could they sanction a new religion based on a Messiah they had crucified as a criminal for claiming he was the king of Jews.

So they turned it around. Instead of Jesus being crucified by Rome as a criminal. They instead argued that Jesus sacrificed himself. Dying as a substitute for others. For sins done by Adam and Eve that had somehow been bequeathed to all of humanity. Commonly called original or ancestral sin.

Unfortunately, Judiasm teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted so ancestral sin is foreign to Judiasm. And perhaps foreign to even the Christian gospels. Matthew 18:3... "Jesus... I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.". But that was not a problem for Roman Empire. They simply persecuted the Jews for 1200+ years and prohibited Christians from converting to Judaism.

Instead of trying to explain away his execution they should have concentrated on his lifes message. As Romes answer to Jesus crucifixion has convinced some Christians that they have a free pass to heaven. That they really don't have to do any hard yakka because Jesus died for their sins. Which again brings us back to Mathew 18.3.

Matthew 18:3... "Jesus... I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.".



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:50 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky




Why would you say your belief in JC is separate from religion?


Because if you really pay attention to what Jesus was against?
It was religion. God doesn't have a religion. But I by no means have it all
figured out and should restrain myself from coming off as tho I do. I'm
no better than anyone but, I feel I got the important stuff nailed down
pretty good.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:55 PM
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originally posted by: craterman
Most Christians just don't get it. I have ALWAYS asked why, must the son of God die for my sins.


1) He didn't have to, he chose to
2) He could've stopped it all, but chose to go through with it because he believed it would bring YOU eternal life.
3) Never before has a man attempted with such success to give his life for all. Ever. And since.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 06:58 PM
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a reply to: Nyiah

I was just making an observation Nyiah and if I thought you were
asking a question instead of posing a doubt?


Explain how this dying for mortal sins works in the first place. Is Jesus a lovely anthropomorphic absorbent sponge? Where does all the sin he soaked up go? If he did not in fact do squat regarding it, then again, what was the point for an immortal to waste 30 years doing it?**

It might be worth answering you.



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: craterman

No God didn't want that to be

Justice had to be served, all Christians know that
That Jesus died receiving our judgement, He paid our fine.

Jesus was 100% human, mortal, was killed, was not immortal till God raised Him from death

Some people here have no theology, no concept of how to read and study
They engage their mouths without engaging their minds



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 08:21 PM
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a reply to: glend

Did you really say Judaism teaches that Humans are born sin free, really

Want to rethink that

Maybe explain where you get that teaching from

Remember that Adam andmEve, broken world thing?



posted on May, 27 2017 @ 08:43 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: glend

Did you really say Judaism teaches that Humans are born sin free, really

Want to rethink that

Maybe explain where you get that teaching from

Remember that Adam andmEve, broken world thing?


Why is it a surprize to you. The term “original sin” is unknown in Jewish Scriptures or the Christian Gospels!



Rabbi Singer on original sin...

Bear in mind, there is good reason for the Church’s uncompromising stand on this cherished doctrine. The founders of Christianity understood that if man, through his devotion and obedience to God, can save himself from eternal damnation, the Church would very little to offer their parishioners. Moreover, if righteousness can be achieved through submission to the commandments outlined in the Torah, what possible benefit could Jesus’ death provide for mankind? Such selfprobing thoughts, however, were unimaginable to those who shaped Christian theology.

Despite the zealous position missionaries take as they defend this creed, the Christian doctrine of original sin is profoundly hostile to the central teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. The Torah loudly condemns the alien teaching that man is unable to freely choose good over evil, life over death. This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish Scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in Moses’ famed teachings to the children of Israel.

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