Greatest Commandment

originally posted by: Joecroft
So when Jesus prayed to God, he didn’t believe he had a Father God…?

When Jesus said “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God…”, he didn’t believe he had a God…?

When Jesus said “by myself I can do nothing…”…he didn’t believe he had a God…?

And when Jesus said, “call No Man on earth Father” (meaning God) he wasn’t including himself in that equation…?

I cant remember the exact phrase. Could you post the Bible references clearly?

originally posted by: Joecroft
Jesus didn’t use the phrase , "My Father" for himself…???

Why do you surprise?
1.

Illeism /ˈɪli.ɪzəm/ (from Latin ille meaning "he, that") is the act of referring to oneself in the third person instead of first person.

Illeism is sometimes used in literature as a stylistic device. In real life usage, illeism can reflect a number of different stylistic intentions or involuntary circumstances.

en.wikipedia.org...

The use of Illeism in conversation is quite common in my area. Example, Adam says,"Adam want to talk with you." What he mean is, he wants to talk with you. Not another person name Adam but he himself.

Jesus quite often refer himself as "Son of Man" too, instead of "I"

2. The Jews prohibited the usage of word "I AM". Therefore Jesus had to find other mean to express the word, "I AM God". So, He resort to "My Father and I is One."

originally posted by: Joecroft
Plus, you’re missing the rest of the context of the verse…

The context of the verse is to point out Jesus remark, "My Father and I is One" is not meant "He has a father or He has God" as Disturbinatti indicated. The point is, Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the God.

originally posted by: Joecroft
John 8: 34-39
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’?

John 8:34-39 New International Version (NIV)
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

originally posted by: Joecroft
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

John 8:34-39 New International Version (NIV)
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever

originally posted by: Joecroft
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

John 8:34-39 New International Version (NIV)
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed

originally posted by: Joecroft
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

John 8:34-39 New International Version (NIV)
37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

originally posted by: Joecroft
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

John 8:34-39 New International Version (NIV)
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father."

originally posted by: Joecroft
39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

John 8:34-39 New International Version (NIV)
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.

Source:Bible Gateway
Are we reading the same Bible?

I'd love to discuss with you further but I'm a bit hurry to go to work. Sorry. I will try to continue when I'm available.

Sorry again.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Originally posted by Joecroft
So when Jesus prayed to God, he didn’t believe he had a Father God…?

When Jesus said “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God…”, he didn’t believe he had a God…?

When Jesus said “by myself I can do nothing…”…he didn’t believe he had a God…?

And when Jesus said, “call No Man on earth Father” (meaning God) he wasn’t including himself in that equation…?

Originally posted by EasternShadow
I cant remember the exact phrase. Could you post the Bible references clearly?

Yeah, sure; I was just paraphrasing from memory…

Well, in the first example, Jesus prays to God in quite a few places found within the New Testament…I even mentioned John 17:20-21 further on in my second reply…

So I think I’ll just stick with that example…because Jesus mentions Father in that particular verse…

John 17:20-21
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

The next one about “ascending to my Father and your Father etc”…can be found in John 20:17

John 20:17
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

And the verse about, “by myself I can do nothing…”…can be found in
John 5:30…

John 5:30
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

And lastly “call no man on Earth Father” is found in Matthew 23:9

Matthew 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Jesus didn’t use the phrase , "My Father" for himself…???

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Why do you surprise?
1.


Illeism /ˈɪli.ɪzəm/ (from Latin ille meaning "he, that") is the act of referring to oneself in the third person instead of first person.

Illeism is sometimes used in literature as a stylistic device. In real life usage, illeism can reflect a number of different stylistic intentions or involuntary circumstances.


en.wikipedia.org...

The use of Illeism in conversation is quite common in my area. Example, Adam says,"Adam want to talk with you." What he mean is, he wants to talk with you. Not another person name Adam but he himself.

The problem is, in that particular verse from John 10, Jesus uses the phrases…

“I and My Father are one.”

And…

“Many good works I have shown you from My Father”

Why would anyone use the word “I” for themselves and then use an Illeism of “MY” to refer back to themselves again…??? That just wouldn't make much sense…IMO

And how can you be sure a form Illeism is being used in those verses found in John 10…around the word “My”… And surely the word “My” would also have to be used in a non Illeism way…throughout tons of other verses found in the Bible…

I think it’s more logical to go with the standard English translation of the verses in regards to the word “My”.

Incidentally, the NIV translation renders the same verse as “I and the Father are one”

Originally posted by EasternShadow
2. The Jews prohibited the usage of word "I AM". Therefore Jesus had to find other mean to express the word, "I AM God". So, He resort to "My Father and I is One."

But you’re assuming that (A) Jesus is God and (B), that “I and the Father are one” means, he was calling himself God…

Did you not read my last reply, where I pointed out the most plausible scriptural reason behind Jesus saying “I and the Father are one”

Jesus wanted his disciples and other future believers to become ONE with Father as well, in his prayer found in John 17:20-21…and by one he means in spirit by becoming born again…IMO

Here’s the verse again below…look carefully at the words…

I’ll highlight the key words

John 17:20-21
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Then read John 14, which talks about receiving the Spirit and becoming born again…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
The context of the verse is to point out Jesus remark, "My Father and I is One" is not meant "He has a father or He has God" as Disturbinatti indicated. The point is, Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the God.

But Jesus states further on in John 10 that he is a “Son of God”…and even asks the Pharisees why they’ve accused him of Blasphemy for saying so…

It’s like you haven’t even looked at my second reply, and tried to weigh up the full picture…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Source:Bible Gateway
Are we reading the same Bible?

You’re mixing up John 8 with John 10…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Am I?

I'm familiar with Catholic church and bible literacy is my field of study. Just like Disturbinatti, I too question trinity before several Catholic priests. What I have post here is what I have come to learn from them. At first I wanted to ignore Disturbinatti, but then I think the guy is sincere and at least deserve some explaination.

But you’re here defending the Trinity in response to Disturbinatti post and your doing the same thing in your responses to me, when you’re an Agnostic!!!

You’re defending a position that Jesus is God from what you have learned from others (Catholics), when you’re a self professed Agnostic who doesn’t believe in a God…

I mean, your outright stating that Jesus is God just because he said the phrase “I and the Father are one”, but yet you don’t believe in God and your agnostic…which is a little odd, to say the least…



- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
Did you not read my last reply, where I pointed out the most plausible scriptural reason behind Jesus saying “I and the Father are one”

Jesus wanted his disciples and other future believers to become ONE with Father as well, in his prayer found in John 17:20-21…and by one he means in spirit by becoming born again…IMO

But you point out John 8: 34-39.
NIV John 8: 34-39 does not state anything similiar to your most plausible scriptural reason. The topic discussed in NIV John 8: 34-39 is completely irrelevant.

originally posted by: Joecroft
Here’s the verse again below…look carefully at the words…

I’ll highlight the key words

John 17:20-21
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

So it's John 17:20-21 now?

He is talking to himself. An act of soliloquy.

You miss out the entirely of John 17:21 May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
God did not sent "His son." He is going to the sons of Israel Himself.

Exodus 3:13-15
13Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" 15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.…

originally posted by: Joecroft
Then read John 14, which talks about receiving the Spirit and becoming born again…

I read Jesus comment in Illeism manner. Nothing suggest that He is not God. Because that would contradicted Exodus 3."Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' How is it possible the God of Abraham etc has send His son, instead ? It make no sense. "I Am who I am, I AM has sent me to you." It's the God who speak to Moses in Exodus and the same God who speak to John. The difference is, God used a lot of illeism when speaking to John. It's precisely the reason John's source is considered 'unique' compared to Mark.

originally posted by: Joecroft
You’re mixing up John 8 with John 10…

I was responding to your quotation:

originally posted by: Joecroft
John 8: 34-39
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

There is no such verse in John 8: 34-39. How am I suppose to reply things that doesn't exist as you claim it?

originally posted by: Joecroft

But you’re here defending the Trinity in response to Disturbinatti post and your doing the same thing in your responses to me, when you’re an Agnostic!!!

You’re defending a position that Jesus is God from what you have learned from others (Catholics), when you’re a self professed Agnostic who doesn’t believe in a God…

I mean, your outright stating that Jesus is God just because he said the phrase “I and the Father are one”, but yet you don’t believe in God and your agnostic…which is a little odd, to say the least…

A Christian believe in Jesus as God. A Judaist and a Muslim believe Jesus is just a man.
An atheist does not belive in God.
I am an agnostic. Not an atheist. An Agnostic does not know whether God exist or not.

As I mentioned in other thread, I'm still looking for answer. This discussion help me to refresh what I have learn so far about God. It does not nessary mean that I believe in God or Reject God. I take no stand unless God can be proven both logically and scientifically.

But I guess you're right. There is no point for an Agnostic like me to 'defend the trinity??'. So I guess, I stop here.

Thanks for the discussion. It really help to refresh my memory and re-assert my cautioness about believing in God.

Yours sincerely,

ES.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

El and Jahweh are 2 distinct personalities in the OT

That could be true is some sense. The Most High EL is the God of Israel and was later assimilated as Yahweh [Jahweh ?] --
The Cepher people have recently completed a three year study on this same topic and determined the correct usage to be Yahuah [Ya-hoo-ah]-- I use both Yahuah as The Most High EL and The Most High El as Yahuah. It depends upon who I am talking to. As far as The Most High EL and Yahuah being separate entities we do not distinguish that at all as you might understand. The Most High did not create this universe according to Nazarene understanding but was His Begotten Son Yahusha [Ya-hoo-sha] that is the Creator.

I tried to follow your video but it had so many errors that I gave it up. Most generally I do not accept videos because they are just other peoples opinions and brings nothing to the table of discussion. Videos offer no debate because most all are opinionated with no opportunity for rebate. Besides being opinionated, the MSS translations were not the same and not comprehensible. I did not see clarity in a debate in your video. The very first thing we should determine is the MSS that was used in the translations and the complete thought in contextual understanding.

LOL I have yet to see the miracle of turning Moses staff into a snake being repeated by even one of his modern day disciples

I haven't either, but if you read the whole story you are told that Pharaoh's wise men and magicians also cast down their staves and they all became serpents. So it wasn't a case of just Moses but also the bad guys too. That same can be contributed to anyone can it not?

Now insofar as a triune God Head is concerned, it is not so difficult to understand the theology. In some ancient religions such as sun worshiping you have a sun, heat, and light. All three are one but disassociated are they not? Or so it seems. In Christianity they have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three are one but disassociated are they not? Or so some believe.

Joel was the first to reveal the coming of the Holy Spirit some 400 years [at least] before Jesus.
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And it is believed that this prophecy was fulfilled at least 400 years later.
Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Believe as you will. It is your choice.

God/Allah, the One God, God of Prophets from Adam (p) to Mohammed (sa), including the Messiah Issa/Yeshua (p).

Is Greatest.

Thomas did NOT call Jesus (p) God.

Whoever said that.

If not an obvious interpolation, (certainly a misinterpretation) like it seems, a lord is not God/El, lord is baal/adon, take your pick and Adonai is nothing different than a written replacement for the sacred YHVH, it matters not the definition as it is truly every place where YHVH, the "Hashem(Thename)", is.

Like humans are not gods, God is not a human lord, an anthropomorphic concept like calling him the Duke of Heaven. Constable of Paradise. It's not blasphemy but it's dishonest to translate a word that doesn't mean Lord, as Lord, just use YHVH and let it be mysterious it should be it is the name of God to the Jews, too sacred to use. Not quite Torah Law but whatever.

Hashem is the most popular. It has a yet still greater meaning than just "THE Name." It's used to describe David once. I will have to look up where but it doesn't translate like it reads according to the Hebrew which is more honorific. Not that he is God, I am not sure that was a tradition then.

Elohim=God, it's myriad variants too.
YHVH means something like He who is and causes to be.

Is translated:
YHVH-Lord, a deception.

Jesus can be a lord/baal, Baal Shem Tov is a title for an eminent Rabbi, lord/master of the Great(?) Name, YHVH. Baal Hasulam, Master/Lord of the Ladder (Ashlag).

He can not be a Lord/Master AND God.

It's deceptive, how it's translated through 3 languages at least is one explanation and the other is because people decided to make a god of Jesus (p) and never will they admit their 1,400 year hoax.

They didn't have to. The Bible never has Jesus (p) claiming to be a or the God.

"I am God so worship ME!"

Isn't the teachings of Jesus.

Worship God ALONE is.

Herod Arche-laus
Herod Acher-Saul

Acher is Paul in the Talmud aka ben Abuya.

Acherusia-Polis is a lake that is not named that anymore but verifiable online easily.

Revelation of Paul has the Acherusuian lake of Fire IN IT!!! A huge feature of it. It is a reference to a Greek myth because Paul got his ideas from them.

Acher means one who goes by an "other" name.

Archelaus is a euphemism for a Herodian Jew because they were called Benjaminites, little known fact but a fact nonetheless.

Because Herod was an "Other Saul." As in King Saul.

Paul Acherlaus was ben Abuya which the Talmud states is who "Corrupted the teachings of Jesu" (p)



He called him a common human title, probably Rabban(Master) but lord(adon or baal) is a human title that is translated from YHVH, which means anything but lord, comes from Adonai, a plural of Majesty like Elohim, in the Masoretic texts but many men are called by righteous men to their righteous master 'lord" in the OT all the time, it's not equal to calling someone God.

"My lord...and my God!!!"

An excited exclamation isn't the same as calling him God, which his brother knew he denied, he was an Apostle, the other Judas, Thomas.

Plus John is the only one to say it and the latest of Gospels, so obviously it is made up.

Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch Jesus (p) because he had "not yet Ascended", but in John Thomas could poke his finger in his wounds. Pre Ascension.


No excuse could rectify that real contradiction. I sense "she was a woman is why'' may come up so to prevent it I say don't waste your time with sexism as exegesis, Jesus (p) wasn't sexist.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Originally posted by EasternShadow
But you point out John 8: 34-39.
NIV John 8: 34-39 does not state anything similiar to your most plausible scriptural reason. The topic discussed in NIV John 8: 34-39 is completely irrelevant.

(A)

I gave the verse I quoted as John 8: 34-39 by accident, but I actually quoted from the verse John 10:34-39 if you go back an check, you’ll see that that’s the case…

Also it was stating you hadn’t taken the rest of the verse John 10 into context, where Jesus said he was a Son of God…which is exactly what the verse I quoted from John 10 was stating…

I just gave the quote as John 8 (by accident) but I actually quoted the correct John 10-34-39 verse…so all the other points I made are still relevant…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
So it's John 17:20-21 now?

What…???…you asked for verses, where Jesus prayed to God…so that’s the verse I chose to give you…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
He is talking to himself. An act of soliloquy.

No, he’s clearly praying to the Father, when he says “…let them be one Father…”…he’s clearly asking for it to be done…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
You miss out the entirely of John 17:21 May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

But I didn’t need the extra sentence to show my point…which is why I didn’t add it…I don’t see what difference it makes to my overall point…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
God did not sent "His son." He is going to the sons of Israel Himself.

I’m not even sure what you mean by, (God did not sent "His son.") etc…when Jesus claims to be a son of God in John 10…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
I read Jesus comment in Illeism manner.

The Bible wouldn't work in English, if every word “My” found in the book, was turned into an Illeism. You need to read it in standard English, to get the correct understanding on it…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Nothing suggest that He is not God. Because that would contradicted Exodus 3."Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.'

But in Exodus 3:13, Moses is telling God, that he (Moses) will go to his people (Israel) and tell them that God has sent him…(sent Moses)

Further down in the verse in Exodus 3:13, God telling Moses who He is…and who Moses should tell the Israelites has sent Him…i.e. God…

None of these have any bearing on Jesus…IMO

Originally posted by EasternShadow
There is no such verse in John 8: 34-39. How am I suppose to reply things that doesn't exist as you claim it?

See (A) further up…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
A Christian believe in Jesus as God. A Judaist and a Muslim believe Jesus is just a man.
An atheist does not belive in God.
I am an agnostic. Not an atheist. An Agnostic does not know whether God exist or not.

If you’re not sure whether you believe God exists are not, then that would make you an Agnostic Atheist…take a look at strong and weak atheism for the correct definitions…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
As I mentioned in other thread, I'm still looking for answer. This discussion help me to refresh what I have learn so far about God. It does not nessary mean that I believe in God or Reject God.

It’s good to look for answers, but if you truly are agnostic, then your stance in discussing these matters, should be Neutral…rather than one of stating X is true etc…, which is what you are currently doing in this discussion…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
I take no stand unless God can be proven both logically and scientifically.

Being Agnostic is the most honest position a person can have, until they move into a better or different understanding…so IMO there’s nothing wrong with where your at right now…

But like I said above, if your unsure then you should really be asking questions, and be honest with where you stand, rather than having the approach, (in discussions) that X is true etc…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
But I guess you're right. There is no point for an Agnostic like me to 'defend the trinity??'. So I guess, I stop here.

You don’t have to stop here…but surely you can see from my perspective, that it’s a little strange having a guy who's agnostic constantly stating “Jesus is God” and defending it, with all his might lol

Anyway, you should start a thread and discuss these types of topics with other members on this website…I am but only one poster, but there others here who share a similar view to myself…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Thanks for the discussion. It really help to refresh my memory and re-assert my cautioness about believing in God.

You shouldn't be basing this discussion so far, as re-asserting your own cautiousness about believing in God.

I believe in God myself, but I believe God’s real truth is encoded into the Bible. I believe Jesus came to teach spiritual truth about every ones divine connection to the Father…but that men in their error turned Jesus into a religion and ultimately into a God…

Continue to question things…if you just reject (or accept) the version of God that’s out there, in the form of Religion, then you may miss the real God, that is hidden underneath…

Keep searching and don’t give up…

Peace be with you…

- JC

a reply to: EasternShadow


"It is my Father who glorifies ME."

John 8

Later in the chapter:

"Before Abraham was I am".STOP

I am what? Not God. That requires saying so and we have his denials recorded all over the place. Page 1 the OP sums it up. Me.

I am.

Not I Am Asher I Am, as God says when He says what you are trying to use to argue that which is not said as fact, even though it's denied flatly by Jesus p that he is God.

He had the same God as us. Jesus' God is the only God who is one God. (p).Our God and his (p) God alike.

He is. Prexistent, immortal, but created.


Logos was IN/WITH God.

Until he wasn't. He is not God (Tontheon) he is theos, Logos is theos.

Logos is NOT Tontheon. God. They didn't use capital letters so Ton+theon= The God, Ho+theos= is Divine/was Divine.

Divinity s not Deity.

St. John "The Divine", aka "The Theos."

Get it? It's in front of our faces.

To add...

"...and the Word was God."

As it is in English.

WAS (as in formerly, used to be, but isn't anymore).

So no longer is the Word God, he came FROM God but once seperated from the Creator he is a creation OF God.

But that is based on a faulty translation and what does it accomplish?

De-deifying the Logos.

If anyone paid attention it would be a miracle but right there in the English it says the Word became flesh, was God, became His Word, and then his Messianic Prophet (p)of the Priestly variety. To paraphrase a few books.

God's not "A High Priest of... Melchizedek."

Jesus pbuh is allegedly according to Hebrews.

Is God a High Priest or even like one?

Not in any way.