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Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus

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posted on May, 29 2017 @ 10:32 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: firefromabove


All the verses cited by op are the writings of Paul, a man whom Jesus never met during his life on earth

How do you know that Saul/Paul never met Jesus? Can you prove that statement?


paul had a knack for bragging about "christ"...

IF he actually met Jesus while he was alive, or even saw him for that matter, he would have most definitely written about it...

They never met...





posted on May, 29 2017 @ 11:31 PM
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Fellow brothers and sisters, know them by their fruit because there is two kinds of Christianity, one pagan and the other that has no images and idolatry, hijacking of something that was already in existence is noticeable and you can see it by a mile away. Only one form of Christianity fits the bill of roman, I do believe that the catholic Christianity will be the one world religion in the end times because it has all the pagan deities all over its churches and all other churches followed and why do you think john was amazed in revelations.

So in a way it is true that they invented there own jesus of the roman pagans and Yeshau for the true follower.

Exodus 20:4 thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

That is it and that is all.



posted on May, 29 2017 @ 11:57 PM
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originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor



Why, then, are you not taking advantage of this amazing business proposition?
a reply to: chr0naut

You're funny. Ha.



The truth is that the Christian Churches have been the major sponsors of health, human welfare and education, in the absence of governmental and societal support, for thousands of years.


Yea....lots of folks in churches or who are believers, do much good out there. It's also true that there are many unbelievers in the Bible or just plain simple folks who try to what's right....who also do for others.
Oh, but they are destined for hellfire for eternity if they don't accept Jesus as their "lord and savior". You know..cause Paul say's so.



And less you forget that even up until recently tens of thousands of Americans died unnecessarily each year merely because they did not have the right insurance cover (ObamaCare was an attempt to redress that fact). So it is plain that non-governmental charitable organisations, such as those of the Christian Churches, are still an essential for modern society.


LOL...that's hilarious. You are kidding right? Most churches don't do squat unless you are a member, OR willing to listen to the "gospel of Paul" and be saved.
Seriously. I've experienced it first hand...many times. (when I was a Christian)



Or, for balance, look to the governments that have actually closed down religious institutions, like Communist, Socialist, anti-Christian and Extreme Right Wing Humanist governments. Look how they have never raised the standards of living of their subjects, every one of them has been a humanitarian disaster!

You should honestly read a little history.


You shouldn't ASS-U-ME, Chronaut.
I've studied more than you know. Have you? Spanish inquisition, witch hunts, etc?



... and Paul's message is not different than that of the Gospels, a fact that has been maintained as self evident truth by the the Christian churches for two thousand years.


It's very different....just ask Chester.



Show me how they are the same. Seriously.

To do so completely would obviously require a comparison of everything Paul taught, with other sources. This task would be a major undertaking and the limited text format of an online forum would make things very difficult and boring for the reader.

As such, I instead propose that you identify where Paul is divergent from core Christian beliefs as compared with other sources.

The Nicene creed is probably the clearest, most central and universally accepted definition of Christian faith. Perhaps you could outline the bits that only Paul preached and did not arise from non-Pauline sources?

Here it is:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken of through the Prophets. We believe in one holy unified and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.


I await your response.

edit on 30/5/2017 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 01:59 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut


We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.


Doesn't Paul say that it was "one death for the forgiveness of sins"?

More or less?

Just sayin..




posted on May, 30 2017 @ 05:12 AM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: chr0naut


We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.


Doesn't Paul say that it was "one death for the forgiveness of sins"?

More or less?

Just sayin..



Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is blood that makes atonement by reason of the life.

Isaiah 53:1-12 Who has believed our message? To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? For he grew up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of dry ground. He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of suffering and acquainted with disease. He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didn’t respect him.

Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth. As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he didn’t open his mouth.

He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people? They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring. He will prolong his days, and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. And He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by his blood

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 Peter 2:24 who his own self bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed.

It would seem that Paul's suggestion that Jesus death was 'once and for many' is entirely supported elsewhere in scripture.

It would be nonsensical to believe that merely taking a dunk under water somehow absolves us of sin - nearly everyone has been submerged at some stage in their life.

But, as an outward sign of the inward repentance and as an acknowledgement of what Jesus has done on our behalf, it becomes part of the total picture of absolution and spiritual change that we undertake.

Consider if people were forced into baptism or into recitation of a "sinners prayer". It would not save, nor would it be genuine. We are not saved by a ceremony or a procedure. We are saved by a genuine change of an attitude of heart, the ceremonies are merely an expression of that.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 06:24 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Matrix Paul and Jesus Teaching are very much alike th e only differnet one was for Jews under the Gospel of the Kingdom (which our friend chr0naut was not referring to that Gospel but to the gospel books in general).

The only difference today between Paul and Jesus teaching is we are not unmdere the Gospel of the kingdom (a promise to Isreal that their Messiah would come in and reign the whole world (hasn't happened yet), and the gospel of the grace of God on whihc all men Jews and Gentiles are saved.

Jesus said his life would be a ransom and said no more on the subject leaving many to wonder what he really meant, under inspiration of Jesus to Paul, Paul explains that the ransom was his death on the cross. Paul expounded on all of Jesus Teachings. I spent the last year and a half studying the lies you and Gnosisisfaith and his 70 plus new ATS acct names, have said about Paul and they are just that, lies. I have found Jesus and Paul teach the exact same thing Paul only expounds where Jesus did not. Salvation by faith, justification through faith, Imputed righteousness is all part of the Ransom of Jesus for the many.

So please don't put lies unto me, you are the one who denies the word of God. You couldn't even follow one command of Jesus when challenged to do so.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 08:59 AM
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a reply to: Akragon



paul had a knack for bragging about "christ"... IF he actually met Jesus while he was alive, or even saw him for that matter, he would have most definitely written about it... They never met...

Certainly Paul's letter show that he bragged about the Son of his God who gave him a chance to live forever. My land I would think that everyone should brag about the Begotten Son of the Most High EL. Without His gift of Life what else would be the sense in this life?

You assume that every letter of Paul's was recovered when in fact you have no idea of how many letters Paul wrote nor how many times that he discussed his Jesus. To say otherwise is very unjust and not believable at all. We have very good evidence that Paul was indeed a member of the Sanhedrin as he was assigned as witness to the execution of Stephen which was required by the courts.

Also when one is a scoundrel it is highly unlikely that the scoundrel would discuss his past in great detail. I believe that Saul/Paul has done more in confessing his past sins then you or or any of his critics have ever ventured to do in revealing your own sins. Till you show evidence that you have all of Paul's letters or even his autographs then you are as a king with no clothes.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 12:16 PM
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a reply to: Seede

So again we venture into things that aren't actually there?

We can assume anything... I could assume there is an entire letter based on the False apostle Paul, and actually titled "the big liar" i suppose... but we don't know because it wasn't ever recovered



Or we could base things on what we know...

Paul loved to talk about himself, and brag about Christ and all that said risen figure taught him...

IF he ever met him... he would have mentioned it... likely every chance he got

Its rather obvious they never met

but again, you can assume whatever makes you happy




posted on May, 30 2017 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015


Text The religion is designed so people with accept the authority of the government without question. This is why Christians do not protest all the killing that occurs in war. Because criticizing the killing done by the state would be the same thing as criticizing God even though it is supposedly immoral to kill other people.

Not true at all. Simply opinions of another who sows the seeds of confusion.

The interpretation of this presentation of the op is totally incorrect as to the majority MSS which is used in the texts shown.

Firstly the author has not even implied that he means the governments formed by mortals. That interpretation is not of the majority text and is not true.

The higher powers is the correct interpretation of this very first verse in the 13th chapter of Romans. Not the authority of men's governments. The higher powers are Gods powers and does not mean authorities of men. Note the difference here in the two interpretations.

OP Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
------------------------
KJV Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

So in reading this very first verse correctly sets the complete correct understanding of the translation. The OP sets his understanding as to secular civil understanding whereas it has nothing to do with human authority whatsoever. It means that every soul be subject to the higher powers of the Most High El.. For there is no power but of The Most High El..
This has nothing to do with the governmental authorities of mankind as many are misled into believing.

OP Romans 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
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KJV Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

OP Romans 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
-------------------------------
KJV Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

OP Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good.
---------------------------------
KJV Romans 13:4 Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

This is nothing more than false translation and interpretation of the majority Greek MSS. Believe what you want but only a fool would accept this as is presented in this thread.
edit on 30-5-2017 by Seede because: spelling correction



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 02:42 PM
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Also this debate over a man (jesus) who probably never existed in the first place. We know that a lot of stuff in the bible is just recycled stuff from older religons , so that fact alone should tell you that you are following, not the word if God, it the word of men.

Hence the reason why it all sounds primitive and silly.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 04:09 PM
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originally posted by: Jay-morris
Also this debate over a man (jesus) who probably never existed in the first place. We know that a lot of stuff in the bible is just recycled stuff from older religons , so that fact alone should tell you that you are following, not the word if God, it the word of men.

Hence the reason why it all sounds primitive and silly.


That there existed a person called Jesus and who founded Christianity is very well attested historically. While most of the proofs of His existence were snapped up by believers, there exists writings and unquestionable historical details attesting to His existence and to the legacy of His existence, which were recorded by eyewitnesses, contemporaries or near contemporaries of Christ.

The evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ is greater than for the existence of the Caesars, classical poets and philosophers of the first Century. For 2,000 years Christians have accumulated everything pertaining to Jesus, a broader and more comprehensive evidential assemblage than exists for any single personage in history.

Of course the Bible is recycled stuff from older religions. The point is also that the Bible culminates earlier religion (specifically the Jewish tradition which itself was a synctretism of other earlier faiths and its own revelations), giving reason and fulfilment to prophecy and traditions impenetrable to previous understanding.

edit on 30/5/2017 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 05:40 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Paul taught about Jesus God the Father and the Holy Ghost some 1,650 times in 13 letters. This does not include the book of Acts or Hebrews.

Many say Paul taught different doctrines than Jesus but what I have seen by comparing scriptures is Paul Expounded on every teaching of Jesus.

The only difference they have is one taught the Gospel of the Kingdom ( for Jews only with Messiah ruling on the throne over all the nations) and the Gospel of the grace of God (for Jews and Gentiles alike made into one man the body of Christ) which is for today.

edit on 30-5-2017 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Seede

I have to give you kudo's Seede. Many refuse the AV as authoritative but you have done an excellent job in showing how these man made versions are not the same as the preserved word of God for this generation as found in the AV.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 06:25 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn


Many refuse the AV as authoritative

Chester, even though I am a Nazarene by faith I also embrace the KJV (AV) as my rock of ages. It is the most poetic true word of God that man has been able to present. Nearing ninety now has shown me that for over 75 years I have carried my book in both my heart and pocket. it brought me comfort in both war and peace and has soothed my doubts as I had from time to time. The Most High has walked and talked with me in manners that you could never believe could even exist and has calmed my belief when overwhelmed by the ungodly. We both know what the God of David can do and will do if we hold steadfast unto death. Thank you for your being a messenger of The Most High EL through Jesus. Your work is far from finished.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 07:00 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut


That there existed a person called Jesus and who founded Christianity is very well attested historically. While most of the proofs of His existence were snapped up by believers, there exists writings and unquestionable historical details attesting to His existence and to the legacy of His existence, which were recorded by eyewitnesses, contemporaries or near contemporaries of Christ. The evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ is greater than for the existence of the Caesars, classical poets and philosophers of the first Century. For 2,000 years Christians have accumulated everything pertaining to Jesus, a broader and more comprehensive evidential assemblage than exists for any single personage in history.

Very well said and very true. You have a way with words that most envy and you condense thought with ease. I read your posts with a smile.

Most are not even aware that Pontius Pilate did not exist in Roman records. He was referenced by literature but still no proof he even existed. It was as though Rome erased him from their memory. That is till 1961 when the Pilate stone was discovered. Now we have proof but still no Roman records. Jesus is far more documented than even His Judge.



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Amen Brother Amen!



posted on May, 30 2017 @ 08:20 PM
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a reply to: Jay-morris Hence the reason why it all sounds primitive and silly.


Sound more like you do not know the Bible well enough to really make rational comments about it. Come back and comment after you have read it and studied it for 10 or more years. I know you would have a different view than the recycled words of other men.


edit on 30-5-2017 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2017 @ 05:26 PM
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I've flip flopped back and forth on this for some time now.
On one hand when I read the bible I realize what many others do is that this is no ordinary book ( It is hands down the most debated and bestselling book on the planet because obviously people are seeing something unique here. There was even a thread here on ATS about how the bible had to have had supernatural or ET/ cosmic.. out of worldly intervention for it to come together the way it has.

That being said. The Roman 13 chapter always raised some eyebrows for me as well. It seemed convenient that all the readers are being told to be submissive to all forms of ruling authorities, without even the slightest mention in this chapter that not all governments are a terror to evildoers. Some governments we know though they may punish criminals are infested with criminals themselves in the highest positions of power.

And this chapter always was one I've wrestled with because as an intellectual mind I've been forced to dig deep and wrestle with the possibility that maybe the entire bible was written by the elites in a way where they covered all there bases to try and pacify the people.

Where this gets problematic though, is the other side to this.. And the big questions.

Why were Christians singled out the most and persecuted so terribly by Rome? ( and many other kingdoms where they dwelt historically speaking?).

If it's design was to pacify the peasants of society and create a false God for them to worship in order to keep them hoping for something in the afterlife while they suffered in their present day lives , So that they wouldn't even bother vying to have an equal standing in society and let the elite's have all the resources without any argument on there part . While that may be a possible brilliant but evil move ..

Why did it have the counter effect in so many ways? History tells us it didn't pacify them all.. We saw the Catholic Christians commit atrocities in the Crusades, Inquisitions, Salem Witch Trials etc.. But than there are some who say they weren't even real Christians and they were actually persecuting real Christians . So was it by design a mix of indoctrinating some and pacifying others??
It's all so complex...
Was it just that the agenda backfired? Or was there something of greater spiritual significance behind it all??

I'm at a point in my life where I have so many more questions than answers, when it comes to Christianity in particular. I realize I'm not alone in this regard, as the Jesus, afterlife, creation of the earth topics are all tied in to the most pressing questions there ever were What is the truth? and why are we here?

Another big question I have for anyone who wants to weigh in is this..

Because we all know The bible predates Rome ( because it even talks about the empire itself before it came into existence ), When did the conspiracy start? and with whom?
It cannot be ruled out as being possible, but
For starters- It would be the biggest conspiracy ever pulled off without another even coming close.

#2- It would involve technology that is out of world, multiple big players scattered all over the world at the perfect, places and perfect times to fulfill some of the prophecies that are in the bible.
( And an even bigger question to boot with that is if that's possible and they could somehow do it, are they fulfilling their OWN playbook via the prophecies they wrote themselves?
Or are they reading about these prophecies and trying to mimic, mirror them for personal reasons we may never know??





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posted on Jun, 1 2017 @ 05:39 PM
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Also another thing I'm wrestling through is this.

If Paul was Rome's inside man so to speak and had a hand in writing the bible for means of control of the public, pacifying them etc.. Than why was he said to have been beheaded as a martyr? Why were essentially all the disciples martyred as well??

Is the belief the disciples never really existed? And Rome wrote about them and depicted stories of them being martyred for their faith? And if so what would Rome stand to gain by this?

If there is another spin on this and that being the disciples were actually Romans infiltrating the movement as I've heard in other places what is the purpose in speaking about Christ as the messiah?

Its just hard to see motive here...

The only thing I think is possible is one of two things. Either the bible truly is the Word of God and people chosen by him were divinely inspired to write down what they saw and heard OR the bible is a blueprint for a complete global takeover via the NWO to pin off all religions against one another in a divide and conquer type scenario.

and this would be done by playing both sides against the middle..


There's too many things that have come to pass through this book, it has effected to many lives and it's relevance after all these years attests to the fact that this isn't a normal book. The implications in there are massive... I don't think we're at a time where we can just say It was a bunch of cave dwelling Hebrews who took drugs and inscribed things and as such God and the whole story is a fairy tale.. If that were the case we would see enormous inconsistencies and it wouldn't knit together over the centuries the way it has..

The hardest part is in accepting no matter how deep we all seem to dig, there may never be a conclusive answer.. the rabbit hole just goes too deep when it comes to topics like this...


edit on 1-6-2017 by freedom7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2017 @ 05:47 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn

a reply to: Jay-morris Hence the reason why it all sounds primitive and silly.


Sound more like you do not know the Bible well enough to really make rational comments about it. Come back and comment after you have read it and studied it for 10 or more years. I know you would have a different view than the recycled words of other men.



How do you know? I have read enough to know that it is primitive and brutal, and completely man made, just like all religon. It is up to you if you want to believe such rubbish, it is your life, not mine.




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