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Plato's Cave is real according to Einstein, Feynman and others

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posted on May, 25 2017 @ 12:48 PM
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I'm watching the really good show on NatGeo called Genius about Einstein and he showed with Relativity that we live in a timeless universe and the evolution of any 3D experience isn't objective reality. He said:

“Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent ‘now’ objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.”

From his book Relativity

We're looking at Plato's Cave.

He also said the distinction between past, present and future is just a persistent illusion. So in this context, we can't look at our universe as any sort of objective reality. It's subjective relative to four dimensional spacetime.

There's all sorts of spacetimes different than ours that are outside of our light cone. They could be in curved spaces different than ours based on their reference frame.

For 3 dimensional objects, we can experince different times and different space based on our acceleration. The things that are constant are the speed of light and spacetime intervals. So an object traveling close to the speed of light will will experience time ticking more slowly and their length will contract and it will get smaller.

So time is connected to spacetime intervals between events. The faster you go towards C means spacetime interval ticks between events gets slower and more stretched out. Here's a couple of videos that talk about spacetime intervals.





So this raises questions about things like free will which I believe is answered by quantum randomness and things like the free will theorem which speaks to the quantum nature of consciousness. So events can be seen in different order and in different ways by observers in different reference frames.

Say you have observer A and observer B.

Observer A sees these 3 events in order.

JFK's election
The Cuban Missle Crisis
JFK's death in Dallas.

Observer b can be moving in a different reference frame because they're accelerating at a different speed and are at a different angle relative to observer A. So observer B sees:

JFK's election
The Cuban Missle Crisis

He doesn't observe JFK's death though. His past light cone just contains these 2 things and not JFK's death. The question becomes, does observer B have to observe JFK's death or can JFK assassination just become an assassination attempt? JFK then serves 2 terms and lives to be 85 in the future light cone of observer B.

Einstein would say, observer B would have to see JFK's death. This is because he didn't think God played dice with the universe therefore he didn't like quantum randomness or things like entanglement.

If he were here today, he would probably support parallel universes because quantum mechanics doesn't lock observer B into observer A's worldline. So just because observer A saw JFK's assassination it doesn't mean observer B has to see the same thing if JFK's assassination hasn't happened for observer B yet.

Richard Feynman saw time in a similar way with sum over histories which indicates the direction of our ordinary clock time is simply a path in space which is more probable than other directions.

Other worlds are just other directions in space, some less probable, some equally as probable as the one direction we experience. Sometimes our world represents the the path that's unlikely. Feynman's summing of all possible histories could be described as a timeless description of a multitude of spacetime worlds all existing together in a simultaneous way. Here's Feynman talking about the universe as a glass of wine (Plato's Cave).



edit on 25-5-2017 by neoholographic because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 25 2017 @ 12:52 PM
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Tagging it to watch later.

S+F! Interesting subject.



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 01:10 PM
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originally posted by: vinifalou
Tagging it to watch later.

S+F! Interesting subject.


Same!

Great post.



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 01:14 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

I'm no physician, so I had to slowly read it twice and digest it word by word, section by section, but I think I got the gist of it. Interesting stuff to ponder and makes a lot of sense. Answers a lot of questions and raises even more.


The videos really put it into perspective. Not too far off from my own hypothesises.

Thanks for sharing.




posted on May, 25 2017 @ 01:25 PM
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[Tim Maudlin] defends a homey and unfashionable view of time. It has a built-in arrow. It is fundamental rather than derived from some deeper reality. Change is real, as opposed to an illusion or an artifact of perspective. The laws of physics act within time to generate each moment. Mixing mathematics, physics and philosophy, Maudlin bats away the reasons that scientists and philosophers commonly give for denying this folk wisdom.

QuantumMagazine.org - A Defense of the Reality of Time.

This popped up the other day. I've mulled it over but was not certain how to do a thread about this one topic.

This guy thinks that calling time just another dimension is wrong. It cleans up the tendency to call things "emergent" too. There is a forward arrow inherent in time. It is a vector. Which also takes out "space-time" which means geometry itself needs to be re-thought; but that is what the guy is doing. Some don't like it and point out the problems with his arrow idea. Anyway, it is a good read from the other perspective!

This article is also on the same site: The Thoughts of a Spiderweb.

"Extended cognition" and "embodied cognition" are discussed. But this is relevant to matter, 4D space-time and what humans are thinking.


[T]he sensory systems of many animals are tuned in to the parts of the world that are relevant to their lives. Bees, for example, use ultraviolet vision to find flowers that have also evolved ultraviolet markings. That avoids the need to take in lots of data and parse it later.

(same)

We are attuned to this reality because that is what we can sense and interact with! Which means what else is out there?! Or, what else are we ignoring just get by in this life?!

Figured you might like these articles! One contrary and one out there.

Plato's Cave metaphor seems very apt to several experiences I've had. The idea may even extend out there; way out there. These topics are fun to peruse and ponder over.


I wonder why. I wonder why. I wonder why I wonder?
I wonder why, I wonder why, I wonder why I wonder!


--Richard Feynman



edit on 25-5-2017 by TEOTWAWKIAIFF because: grammar and what not

edit on 25-5-2017 by TEOTWAWKIAIFF because: the parser moved my thumbs up into the quote! lol



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 01:32 PM
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Plato's Cave is real according to Einstein




calling time just another dimension is wrong



So Time-Space is really just the "Shadow" effect bleeding over from higher dimensions... We can't define it, but see it's effects... the "Shadow" penalty being the relativity of Time-Space...




edit on 25-5-2017 by ShadowChatter because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 01:32 PM
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Will read and revert.

Interesting topic



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 01:47 PM
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originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: neoholographic

I'm no physician, so I had to slowly read it twice and digest it word by word, section by section, but I think I got the gist of it. Interesting stuff to ponder and makes a lot of sense. Answers a lot of questions and raises even more.


The videos really put it into perspective. Not too far off from my own hypothesises.

Thanks for sharing.




Thanks and you're right.

You can also think of light as a projector. We could be events(information) sort of frozen in spacetime until light reaches us. So one event can be the basis to a multitude of spacetime worlds.

Say there's a spacetime event that occurs outside of our light cone. Light from this event doesn't reach us until a point in our past light cone. Say this point is befor Challenger exploded. This event will cause that point in spacetime to be projected. Sort of like frames in a movie.

At that point, we would share the same history or past light cone but the future could be different. So maybe this event causes NASA to change the date and time of the Challenger launch and in that spacetime Challenger is a success and everyone who was around at that point would be living similar or very different lives.

You can see how our universe could essentially go on ad infinitum in a gazillion different ways. This is because light from an event outside of our current light cone can affect our past and future light cone and began to project different points in four dimensional spacetime.
edit on 25-5-2017 by neoholographic because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 02:06 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

Pertinent quote;

"The more you know, the more you realize you don't know"

Very true and one of the most profound quotes imo.

Pretty mind boggling just to think about all of this stuff.




posted on May, 25 2017 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

Interesting concept but I believe Plato's Cave is a reference to enlightenment of the mind.



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 02:29 PM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: neoholographic

Interesting concept but I believe Plato's Cave is a reference to enlightenment of the mind.



Exactly, enlightment about the true nature of reality. Scientist throughout the years have recognized this. Here's a quote from Werner Heisenberg:

“I think that modern physics has definitely decided in favor of Plato. In fact the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language.”

― Werner Heisenberg


Here's an article from Theoretical Physicist Brian Greene on the Holographic Universe.

Plato likened our view of the world to that of an ancient forebear watching shadows meander across a dimly lit cave wall. He imagined our perceptions to be but a faint inkling of a far richer reality that flickers beyond reach. Two millennia later, Plato’s cave may be more than a metaphor. To turn his suggestion on its head, reality—not its mere shadow—may take place on a distant boundary surface, while everything we witness in the three common spatial dimensions is a projection of that faraway unfolding. Reality, that is, may be akin to a hologram. Or, really, a holographic movie.

discovermagazine.com...

So, the things Plato said have turned out to be pretty profound as it pertains to the nature of reality and Scientist have recognized this throughout the years.



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 02:59 PM
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Well, in experience I have ran across two sorts of people in a standard of the right brain/left brain operations... one side is more literal as in word and speaking inside and outside of the mind like talking inwardly and/or outwardly. Another side sees in pictures... both sides can be prone to holding the self expression in until it explodes in anger or tears inside and or outside.

I first was what one called a day dreamer as in seeing in pictures with diarrhea of the mouth... just wouldn't shut up. Til one day someone I looked up to that was actually a bad influence asked me "Don't you ever shut up?" Then I did. Turned that voice inside... then the emotion and free expression turned from inner visual and outer words, to outer seeing and inner dialog.

Then after so much self repression instead of self expression? The bottle or inner just couldn't contain any more... and like a bottle shaken up too much? After meditation at 18 years old Woosh!!! into kundalini and then thinking I knew something? Purged all interior from that shutting up.

Well, all the pain abuse and skeletons I held for others had to be flushed out... they didn't seem to like that holding the higher self lower self god/Satan demon/angel ideation as external when it is an internal not knowing the "self" as an external.

The interesting thing is? Is I was like myself yet a new born again... and I started seeing what appeared as temptation and ugliness exterior and the beauty didn't matter just shinning on as before except taking the path of mediation to try to end the duality seen. It is rough and rocky road.

Years and years later it became apparent that the attachment to things as permanent and lasting was the issue in that duality.

I continued to mediate my ritual was always a smoke first thing in the morning sort of like time to focus on the day ahead clear the night of sleep and the smoke was inner and outer of the temple... inhale and exhale.

So eyes closed continuing practice of meditation? I would just stare at the "night sky" inside. Still literal in mental formation. Then the "eye" cleared where everything was no-thing just is was it is as it is no name to forms and just simply being, then disregarding any sound as the same? It also cleared internally as the external or storehouse/subconscious spun and snatched at any mental formation... voices swirling outside not oneself but as attachments of other... seeing duality as external that kept trying to creep in as internal.

Looking at this there were and are inflows and outflows like the breath the expansion and contraction of galaxies.

I started doing open eye mediation as well since the eye was clear and the attachment? Sort of like being an egg that no clucking can crack. Of course, the major irritations where the "teachers" I was placed with for most of the journey. That was simply due to what I call a curse known as a "living will" so of course the greed, and hate, and ignorance surrounding all of that grasping? Has been painful, tiring and pretty relentless for two years.

But that's ok taking it as a lesson... shadows on the wall? What happens when that fire or passion goes out? The smoke will still continue with some venting. The internal seeing all just the same with eyes open... external grasping still continuing over what seems like an immeasurable amount of time and in that time, the Plato's cave of imagination and swirling of the dream has been stagnated in moving forward yet that is simply present, as existence itself. The minds eye open and the meditations with eyes shut have taken me on many journeys and places in simply seeing. As the "star fields" vanished this is known as the Deva's eye.

Light and darkness... the eye sees regardless of sight or blindness or attachment to "knowledge" form those seeings and formations known as attachments.

Sometimes, eyes open? In this constant state of clear seeing and hearing what is known as good and bad? Are clearly seen like masks of a "self expression" but when attached to those masks then the ego cannot see beyond "itself" of the facade. This gauntlet of the "self" runs a gamut of mental masturbation in constant formation of the hands that the fire cannot put out called an ego. So one receives, one gives, while the other just takes.

The mind moving is the shadow grasping the wall as it's reality or truth, while the fire consumes all fuel until there is no fuel left. Infinite is the fuel that the axe cuts when pointing outwardly from those things taken inwardly to keep those home fires burning. The meat of the matter is who is getting consumed in that exchange?

Not the cave.



posted on May, 25 2017 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

thanks for another great OP



posted on May, 26 2017 @ 02:07 PM
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originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: neoholographic

thanks for another great OP


Thanks for your post and these things are very interesting to think about because these are things that science has discovered about the nature of what we call "reality."



posted on May, 26 2017 @ 04:01 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

The extension of light as an extended or embodied part of the mind is a wild idea!

I've always said light is stranger than we know.

The universe is in our mind because of light. What are neurons but electric pulse conductors??

We are the shadows on the cave believing we are real! Or, we truly are spirits in the material world.

Wild!




posted on May, 26 2017 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic



Time is a form of Communication
Consciousness transcends all states
that can be perceived as matter

Matter communicates its existence
to Consciousness through time

Juan

Excellent OP Neo



posted on May, 26 2017 @ 05:55 PM
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I watched the first video and found it boring. Just explains the difficulties in mathematically achieving synchronization in a universe where space and time varies for each observer. So we need a new type of maths to describe spacetime. Or did something fly over my head?



posted on May, 26 2017 @ 06:05 PM
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a reply to: glend



Actually no



posted on May, 26 2017 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

Awesome post to consider.

I liked the idea several great minds talked about where far reaching concepts and ideas, that are still science fiction, originate in the "ether" as Einstein loosely proposed that the extra dimension was ether. Asimov stated that (paraphrasing)"science fact has to start as science fiction and that the idea must pop into someones thinking and be articulated before it could possibly become a science fact".

The quantem entanglement experiment suggests that the observation has an affect on the outcome like the three slits with one atom shot through is a fantastic experiment to demonstrate this.

Page 13 in this excellent discussion/paper below discusses the one atom being in more than one place issue:

www.aps.org...

Space time being the subject I think this issue of entanglement is 'gumming up the works' in such that it points out the complexity of WHEN something is "there". Circular argument with no answers, so far.

ETA
I simply love Feynman's ideas!!!


edit on 26-5-2017 by Justoneman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2017 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: neoholographic

Pertinent quote;

"The more you know, the more you realize you don't know"

Very true and one of the most profound quotes imo.

Pretty mind boggling just to think about all of this stuff.



Humbling actually to realize as you learn more you need to learn more to have a chance at understanding.

Conversely those who don't know, the less they want to know... Or at least it seems so.

An Eidee Brickell (sp?) song went

"Philosophy, it's just a walk on a slippery rock".

edit on 26-5-2017 by Justoneman because: (no reason given)




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