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originally posted by: Disturbinatti
I should have done this already.
Genesis 16:10 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said to her, "I will greatly multiply your offspring that they can not be counted.
That was Hagar receiving a message from an angel about what God will do for her child. God obviously cares about Ishmael and Hagar.
16:3 Abrams wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave girl, andgave her to her husband AS A WIFE.
Last I checked a wife, slave or not, was a wife and a son BY a wife is LEGITIMATE.
Making a spectactle of Hagar's being a slave is an immoral argument as a biological son is a son BUT they WERE MARRIED.
All you Anti-Ishmaelites with fetishes for trying to discredit your own scriptures in order to slander...Islam because it's connected to Ishmael, are finding out how little you know. Now.
Genesis 15, God makes Covenant with Abraham.
17 The Sign of the Covenant (chapter title)
18. "Oh that Ishmael may live in your sight!"
Says Abraham, who is told to establish an everlasting covenant for his offspring (Isaac), established with Isaac, we all know.
20. As for Ishmael, I have HEARD YOU; I WILL BLESS HIM AND MAKE HIM FRUITFUL AND EXCEEDINGLY NUMEROUS, THE FATHER OF TWELVE GREAT PRINCES.
Certainly the Covenant is "established" through Isaac, but Ishmael pbuh is still a MEMBER of said Covenant.
17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael and all the slaves in his house or bought with his money, EVERY MALE among the men of Abraham's house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, AS GOD HAD SAID TO HIM....
26. That same day Abraham AND HIS SON ISHMAEL WERE CIRCUMCISED.
So Ishmael was a member of Isaac's Covenant, inherited from Abraham by rite of circumcision, so who cares if it was established through Isaac, it doesn't void Ishmaels initiation, so to speak, as ordered by God in the first place, it just makes Isaacs special.
I will settle for God's blessing and being just a member of a Covenant, I don't need it to be through Jacob, as the Bible makes clear the line of Ishmael was a part of a Covenant that was performed with Abraham on the same day as Abraham and it is through circumcision.
It's as irrevocable as Isaac's special Covenant and so is God's blessings.
And the curse of Canaan, who because of Judah's 3 Canaanite wives, who knows maybe Judah's children who also married Canaanites, inherited it!
Point is if you need to insult Islam, through denigrating Ishmael and Hagar (and denying it most likely with some garbage "logic" as you contradict the Torah) or any religion period, you violate the second greatest commandment (and likely deny it too) to "Love your neighbor as yourself" and in the world of religion Abrahamic religions are neighbors and brothers of One God and many Prophets, even if we have slight differences the similarities are greater to the point it isn't an issue in the absence of religous bigotry.
Not my thing guys so I am not going to join in your little hate-speech, as I am comfortable enough with my Faith I don't need to attack others.
I don't need to be the "my religion is better than your religion" guy or make fallacious arguments because I actually know this stuff and I don't mind the little differences between our religions as some do.
I just quoted enough of the Bible to prove my point beyond dispute.
Without pretending to know a story I don't, because I know it well. Didn't think it was necessary to quote but if people who don't understand the Bible want to denigrate Ishmael and Mohammed (pbut)...
Well I just have let God tell you in your own scripture so I don't need to do anything ever again regarding justifying the legitimacy of Ishmael.
It's funny in my second message I stated I partially make this to show people just like that who say just these things to render Islam (in their half baked minds) illegitimate.
Even if it means misrepresenting the Torah.
Have fun revoking God's blessings!!
Seems futile, but I won't tell you how to waste your time. It's your wasted time.
Because if Ishmaels circumcision didn't count then neither did Abrahams but the chapter in which they get circumcised is titles in my Bible as "The Sign of the Covenant."
You people don't know your scriptures.
I should not have to explain Torah to you.
But I enjoy doing it because I know it well.
But I was once a "Christian" I thought.
Then I really read the whole Bible and realized that Paul is still the enemy of Jesus pbuh the "Wolf of Benjamin and leaven of the Pharisees.'' He hates James and "...men of James sent to spy on our freedom in Christ."
"Circumcision faction" is what he also calls them even with the Jerusalem Council declaration of it not being necessary to burden the Greeks/goyim with it.
Violates his agreement to abide by the prohibition (of the Holy Spirit as was the general decree of said council) against idol meat, which Paul rebukes as for "weak brothers."
Calls the Torah a curse, Abraham "an allegory" says that the Law was "Ordained by angels."
I know God isn't an angel and personally ordains the Law. Angels don't have anything to do with creating Law, or anything, God does everything Himself, despite how Genesis apparently reads, it's common in the Qur'an for God to refer to Himself as "We", constant actually, so I read it differently and so do Jews who refuse to believe angels participate in Creation as they don't exist until the "Luminaries" which means "Heavenly Hosts(bodies) and refers to the angels in the Tanakh constantly. (2/3 of the stars swept out of the shy means angels, for instance, Rev.).
And Jesus pbuh never knew Paul as he condemns his little idol meat teaching in Revelation as the teaching of Balaam...a stumbling block for Israel, he obviously wasn't revealing secrets to him or anything at all.
And he self appointed himself as an "apostle" while none of the 12 EVER refer to him as such and 12 is the maximum according to Rev., again that books is revealing as the 7 Churches of Asia are "All those who are in Asia have turned from me" and only hints at Paul as one who says he is an apostle and is not, is a liar, discovered, rejected and Jesus(pbuh) praises them.
Only one person in the Bible fits the description, and the rest supports it, they support each other, it is Paul.
"I think I am not the least inferior to these super-apostles."
They thought so.
He lies to James in Jerusalem regarding his anti-Mosaic teachings, denies he advocates abandoning the Law he calls "a curse."
So I converted to Islam because Jesus pbuh denies any equality with God and never asks to be worshipped or called "God." Not even in Christian books.
And Paul infiltrated and corrupted Nazarene Judaism into a dying god cult.
originally posted by: Disturbinatti
It occurred to me that I had said that Ishmael had mocked Isaac earlier.
I had been reading about Rabbinical literature that attempted to explain why Sarah (pbuh) wanted Ishmael gone.
It says that Ishmael was boasting about his circumcision as an adult in a conversation with Isaac (pbut) who says he was willing to be sacrificed and that was far more important.
This fails to take into account that Isaac was an infant at the time Sarah (pbuh) cast out Hagar and that infants don't talk.
Genesis 21:8 (Birth of Isaac begins at 21, Ishmael was circumcised already in 17 before Isaac was born as I stated earlier. To be honest I don't see why "established through" Isaac makes Abraham and Ishmael's Covenant any less significant but whatever, it is their scripture)
21:8 The child grew to be weaned; and Abraham made a great feast on the day Isaac was weaned [stopped breastfeeding].9 But Sarah saw the son of Hagar playing with her son Isaac. 10. So she said to Abraham, "Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit with my son Isaac."
It's interesting because she says "with" showing uncharacteristic greed and jealousy which the Zohar (Mystical commentary on the Torah and some Prophets, Writings) explains as a case of the "evil eye" meaning she was under the influence of the evil inclination (Sitra Ahra, the Other Side, Samael, Lilith, Naamah).
Which is interesting because the corrupted 1000AD Masoretic version, the Hebrew Tanakh, even goes against all older versions like the Septuagint (which usually agree with the DSS more than the Masoretic) and Vulgate REMOVES "with her son Isaac" as if they didn't want Ishmael to have been playing with Isaac.
And I use the NRSV which uses Syriac, Samaritan Pentateuch, DSS, whenever possible in addition to the Septuagint and Vulgate, and always renders the Masoretic alterations to footnotes.
Long story short, Ishmael, (pbuh) COULDN'T have and didn't do anything wrong to Isaac like mock him in discussion because Isaac could not talk yet when Hagar was made to flee.(pbut)
Had to correct my mistake.
TextSo Ishmael was a member of Isaac's Covenant, inherited from Abraham by rite of circumcision, so who cares if it was established through Isaac, it doesn't void Ishmaels initiation, so to speak, as ordered by God in the first place, it just makes Isaacs special.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Disturbinatti
TextSo Ishmael was a member of Isaac's Covenant, inherited from Abraham by rite of circumcision, so who cares if it was established through Isaac, it doesn't void Ishmaels initiation, so to speak, as ordered by God in the first place, it just makes Isaacs special.END QUOTE.
No No. Ishmael was a member of Abraham's covenant. You are confused in that respect.
There are two covenants involved in this episode. The first and foremost is that of Abram which was the covenant of his entire house of both family and servants. This was sealed by circumcision of all males of Abrams house.
The covenant (Brit Bein Habetarim) with Abraham was in 2016 AA [1743 bce]. Yishmeel was born in 2034 AA [1727 bce]. Then Abraham circumcised both Yishmeel and himself in 2048 AA [1713 bce]. This means that there were 32 years between the covenant and the sealing of the covenant. Yishmael was but 14 years old at this time. Then that same year of 2048 AA [1713 bce] Yitzchak [Isaac] was born and was circumcised eight days later as was instructed to Abraham by God. Abraham died in 2123 AA [1638 bce] as Yitzchak was 75 years old and Yishmeel was 89 years old.
Now it may interest some who are reading this to learn that the Sunday School tales are not always correct. Yitzchak [Isaac] was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed in 2084 AA [1677 bce] and that means that he was not a young lad as many are taught but was a man of 36 years old while his older brother Yishmeel was 50 years old.
So in reading scripture entails some study and not all assumptions. Getting back to Isaac, as you can see the sealing of the covenant between God and Yitzchak [Isaac] was 75 years after the circumcision of Abraham's house.
Gen 25:11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahairoi.
Ishmael was never under the covenant of his brother Isaac.
Gen 25:5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
As is the custom of passing the blessing of authority from father to son.
I don't really know what you are trying to say but I can tell you are confused and just want to tell someone they are wrong because...it is Ishmael, otherwise I don't see why you commented, it makes no difference.
It's clear that whole Roman generation rejected Jesus pbuh message for Paul's, and that it needed correction. So in a way, if they hadn't called him God against his wishes to be considered equal with God, you would have Nazarene Judaism and no Catholicism/Christianity.
originally posted by: Disturbinatti
His WIFE, Hagar, you mean?
Ishmael was legitimate.
originally posted by: Disturbinatti
which it is clear you have yet to grasp from a scholarly perspective versus a religous one, which is common.
believe that is clear. You see that Isaac and Ishmael were both under the covenant of Abraham but that is the first covenant. Then after Abraham died, God made His covenant with Isaac.