Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)

a reply to: yuppa


I can not take your idea you have valid interpretations seriously period, never mind agree with them.

Your lack of knowledge has been proven, you didn't know key facts about your religion if it is your religion, so I will not be taking you seriously at all tbh.

I forgive you though.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: yuppa


I can not take your idea you have valid interpretations seriously period, never mind agree with them.

Your lack of knowledge has been proven, you didn't know key facts about your religion if it is your religion, so I will not be taking you seriously at all tbh.

I forgive you though.

Of course you wont take anything that contradicts your view seriously. Knew that from the start. Because its from a non believer in muhammed.
The man would Lie,and steal. is that a Godly way to live? No it is not if you are being honest.

I do my best to treat others as i want to be treated. i try my best to not push anything on anyone,and i also try my best to be as sin free as I can and respect God. We just disagree.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: yuppa



You don't know enough about Islam, like a basic fact about Jesus pbuh in Islam, your judgement of Islam means nothing.

And your speculations about Mohammed saws and his intentions are worthless.

Ishmael was a bastard by todays standards. CORRECTION. he did marry her BUT was already married so it actually makes Hagar a adulteress.

It occurred to me that I had said that Ishmael had mocked Isaac earlier.

I had been reading about Rabbinical literature that attempted to explain why Sarah (pbuh) wanted Ishmael gone.

It says that Ishmael was boasting about his circumcision as an adult in a conversation with Isaac (pbut) who says he was willing to be sacrificed and that was far more important.

This fails to take into account that Isaac was an infant at the time Sarah (pbuh) cast out Hagar and that infants don't talk.

Genesis 21:8 (Birth of Isaac begins at 21, Ishmael was circumcised already in 17 before Isaac was born as I stated earlier. To be honest I don't see why "established through" Isaac makes Abraham and Ishmael's Covenant any less significant but whatever, it is their scripture)

21:8 The child grew to be weaned; and Abraham made a great feast on the day Isaac was weaned [stopped breastfeeding].9 But Sarah saw the son of Hagar playing with her son Isaac. 10. So she said to Abraham, "Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit with my son Isaac."

It's interesting because she says "with" showing uncharacteristic greed and jealousy which the Zohar (Mystical commentary on the Torah and some Prophets, Writings) explains as a case of the "evil eye" meaning she was under the influence of the evil inclination (Sitra Ahra, the Other Side, Samael, Lilith, Naamah).

Which is interesting because the corrupted 1000AD Masoretic version, the Hebrew Tanakh, even goes against all older versions like the Septuagint (which usually agree with the DSS more than the Masoretic) and Vulgate REMOVES "with her son Isaac" as if they didn't want Ishmael to have been playing with Isaac.

And I use the NRSV which uses Syriac, Samaritan Pentateuch, DSS, whenever possible in addition to the Septuagint and Vulgate, and always renders the Masoretic alterations to footnotes.

Long story short, Ishmael, (pbuh) COULDN'T have and didn't do anything wrong to Isaac like mock him in discussion because Isaac could not talk yet when Hagar was made to flee.(pbut)

Had to correct my mistake.

Sarah wanted ishmael gone simply because she didnt like hagar after God gave her her own biological son instead of a halfblood adulteresses child. Hagars presence reminded sarah of her mistake to use hagar as a way to get a child instead of having faith in gods promise to her and abraham.

the end.

a reply to: yuppa

If you say so, clearly you know so much.

And it's not obvious you are just on a mission to insult Hagar and Ishmael because they are important to Muslims (pbut).

And I am not being sarcastic.

I am.

a reply to: yuppa

Although I think I explained it better and more accurately and using every relevant passage in the Bible.

Sarah was jealous her son would have to share his inheritance, not even receive the whole thing but SHARE.

It says it right in the quotes I provided.

Your explanation is YOUR "explanation", not Biblical truth.

originally posted by: yuppa
Sarah wanted ishmael gone simply because she didnt like hagar after God gave her her own biological son instead of a halfblood adulteresses

Hagar is one person, you mean adulteress'.

I have shown you the quote which says she was Abraham's wife. Not an adulteress, besides Abraham would be the adulterer, Sarah guilty of leading him into it, had they not married, so they did.

Are you saying Sarah was racist?

She would be rolling in her grave now that all Judahites/Jews are of Canaanite blood because of Judah's 3 wives and his sons wives being Canaanite.

What of that? Canaan was cursed, Hagar is Khemite/Egyptian, not Canaanite.

She is more pure.

child. Hagars presence reminded sarah of her mistake to use hagar as a way to get a child instead of having faith in gods pmeanromise to her and abraham.

the end.

None of that is what the Bible says. Why are you assuming to know what Sarah (pbuh) thought yet didn't say?

She expressed jealousy. Not what you are claiming, that wasn't even suggested.

You like making this easy for me, huh? You can try harder. You are going to have to if you want to refute the Torah itself and speak for its Prophetesses.

Show me how you conclude Hagar was an adulteress for sleeping with her husband Abraham because her master ordered her too.

Sound like a victim, unless Hagar WANTED to.

But they WERE married so she must have.

I have explained this already so either you don't read my messages or pretend you didn't or don't regard the Bible as honest.

Regarding "Half bloods."

As I said the 3 wives of Judah were Canaanitesses.

Meaning his whole line is too. His sons also married women of Canaan.

Your reasoning is sloppy in the extreme and actually does the Jews no favors, since Canaan is cursed and all.

Well that's not your fault it was Judah's.

This has been fun

a reply to: yuppa

Genesis 21:10 AGAIN.

"Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not INHERIT ALONG WITH my son Isaac."

She probably should have thought of that before she told Abraham to marry Hagar, which, if she hadn't would have made Abraham an adulterer, as a slave Hagar would have incurred no guilt as she was A SLAVE and as such had no choice. But they were married so moot.

You should probably have figured that one out. I am not surprised that you didn't.

If I didn't already say it I would not be wondering why you are lying about Sarah pbuh and Hagar pbuh BOTH.

But I did, am.

Sarah was worried about Isaac having to SHARE an inheritance with HER son.

Money, her, that was why she did it.

No disrespect to Sarah(pbuh), God had a plan, it required Ishmael the blessed father of 12 Princes to carry the Covenant in his genes and emerge Prophetically in Mohammed saws.

It was not Sarah's fault, God hardened Pharaoh's​ heart so He influences people for sure, for His plan.


You are like the easiest person to debate with in the world because all you are is opinion.

I just quote from the Bible.

You are the "revisionist", I hate to inform you.

I actually enjoyed that, after typing it I see it is an ironic and appropriate turn of events that has allowed me to use your words against you. Unless it wasn't you but it usually is. Has been.

a reply to: yuppa

THE END

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: yuppa


I can not take your idea you have valid interpretations seriously period, never mind agree with them.

Your lack of knowledge has been proven, you didn't know key facts about your religion if it is your religion, so I will not be taking you seriously at all tbh.

I forgive you though.

Of course you wont take anything that contradicts your view seriously. Knew that from the start. Because its from a non believer in muhammed.
The man would Lie,and steal. is that a Godly way to live? No it is not if you are being honest.

I do my best to treat others as i want to be treated. i try my best to not push anything on anyone,and i also try my best to be as sin free as I can and respect God. We just disagree.

Even after I prove to you something by quoting from the Bible you call Hagar but not Abraham an adulteress.

I showed you they were married.

This is why you are not going to be taken seriously.

You don't know anything, when proven wrong ignore the proof and keep spewing filthy lies.

It's a good reason. Not like the one you invented for me. I prefer to explain myself myself though.

It's not about me.

you marry a previously married man you or woman then you are a adulterer. that is it. you get one marriage to one woman according to the Bible. God didnt punish Ishmael though since he didnt have any say in his birth. If you read the bible cover to cover you would know this.

a reply to: yuppa

Now your just rambling.

It says they were married.

What more proof do you need?

It says why Sarah was jealous, over the inheritance being shared.

Why are you bothering, you lost? Deal with it.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
This is why you are not going to be taken seriously.

You should take every challenge seriously. People have views that are legitimate.

In the case of Hagar it's all down to interpretation. Was Hagar Abraham's wife? The question seems to vex some people because it has implications as to whether Ishmael was a bastard. Ishmaels illegitimacy has onward implications around Muhammad's place in his part of the covenant God made with Abraham. At least that's my understanding. But I am no theologian, nor do I care whether Muhammad and the Islamic faith has any backward claim to God, or not. If you build a faith on such tenuous links then don't be surprised when they are questioned.

Anyway, was Abraham married to Hagar, or not? Abraham did not seem to think so as he never referred to her as his wife. If the only evidence is down to a translation of a translation of a translation around Genesis 16 with Sarah giving Hagar to Abraham " to be his wife" then I say the foundations of the story is built on sand. But hey, that's religion for you.

Don't despair. Many great people are bastards. Lawrence of Arabia (pbuh) and Oprah Winfrey (pbuh), to name but two illegitimate famous people.

originally posted by: yuppa
you marry a previously married man you or woman then you are a adulterer. that is it. you get one marriage to one woman according to the Bible. God didnt punish Ishmael though since he didnt have any say in his birth. If you read the bible cover to cover you would know this.

This is words without purpose, it doesn't refute the facts I have proven are in the Torah that you keep ignoring until you can't do anything and are just bumbling.

a reply to: paraphi

This hasn't been challenging.

At all.

Type words in book.

Enter.

After letting everyone display their opinions I display the Bible's statements and show people they are wrong.

It's not hard or challenging just fun.

a reply to: paraphi


You obviously didn't pay attention I refuted literally ever malicious statement made about Ishmael or Hagar pbut by quoting the Torah.

A while ago too.

The rest has just been repeating it because it's being deliberately ignored like proof people are wrong usually is.

I don't even have to read your message if you agree with the Bible you do, if not then not.

I literally quoted every important mention of Ishmael. See for yourself and tell me I am wrong.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Even after I prove to you something by quoting from the Bible you call Hagar but not Abraham an adulteress. I showed you they were married. This is why you are not going to be taken seriously. You don't know anything, when proven wrong ignore the proof and keep spewing filthy lies.

Abram/Abraham was a citizen of Babylon as his father was a god [idol] maker. We are taught by tradition that as a lad he spent his formative years with his grandfathers Noah and Shem in their academy in what is now known as the Jerusalem area. I show this only to make this point.

Abram had no priest as he left Babylon and when he took wife. He took a vow to the woman and the woman to the man. That was marriage in this case. It is not taught that Abram took a woman with the blessings of either Noah or Shem. Even though Noah and Shem were both alive at the time that Abram and Sara were wed, they were far apart geographically. This is to say that Sara was the half sister of Abram and we cannot judge this matter in our understanding iof how we live today.

Now as far as Hagar is concerned, there is nothing in the DSS or any other manuscript that show a vow taken between Hagar and Abram. It was an arrangement between Sara and Hagar with nothing mentioned of a vow before The Most High EL. Now to be clear in this matter, Sara was the only legal wife of Abram and Isaac was the only legal son of the covenant.

Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

But as you can see, this matter was not Sara's to give. Sara was neither a priestess or a priest of authority. What is meant here is that Sara gave Hagar permission to mate with her man or act as his wife. The same is said of Moses when God gave the Hebrews the man Moses as a god to them and his brother Aaron as a priest to the Most High. That did not make Moses The Most High EL but only as an authority to represent The Most High EL. This same is applied to Abram and Hagar.

I would not argue this because it becomes a matter of a difference in opinions and interpretations.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

You have challenged an assertion that of Ishmael's legitimacy though, or rather Hagar's status. Keep up and re-read your assertions above; or are you losing track of your arguments and statements?

a reply to: paraphi

I knew damn well everyone would talk trash, see my second comment.

I let them.

Then I refuted them with the Torah.

And all but the stubborn and diehard anti Ishmaelites will argue against that.

It's not a complex strategy, but it works.

Especially since I said it all in the OP without quoting so they could deny it.

And the Torah is kind to Ishmael. God is too.