Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)

a reply to: yuppa


Actually that cleanliness nonsense is... nonsense.

Soap, water, good to go.

It's not terminal to have foreskin.

But I didn't have that choice.

Would have liked to have had a say in that one.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: yuppa

Type something worthy of a human being and I will.

You are an animal of hate.

I have no need to talk with your kind.

Your faith is so weak you cant even discuss it. arent you to try to convert people? so try.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
You could always not whine.

I think you are trolling. Like I said, try to be accommodating rather than rude.

Ishmael was just a man, if he ever really existed. It's convenient and probably contrived that Muhammad's genealogy can be traced back to him. The same counts for Jesus mind who can trace lineage back to Isaac.

Building the religion is about building the story. Part of the story is legitimacy. Making up legitimacy by linking back to Abraham takes the biscuit as that story had already been made.

a reply to: yuppa

Trying to call my faith into question isn't going to get me to engage you beyond this.

You didn't know the proper story about Ishmael, his blessings, why Abraham agreed to let him go(God promised to bless Ishmael).

Yet you need Ishmael to be illegitimate to suit your religous bias.

I have told you what the Bible and the Rabbis said about Ishmael (pbuh) AND in support of Mohammed (saws) from the 8th century AD.

You hate Ishmael, Islam, Mohammed (pbuh saws) regardless.

We have nothing to discuss anymore you are beat.

Show me the Biblical quote revoking Ishmaels blessing from God.

Then I will talk.

a reply to: paraphi


Mohammed saws is the "Rider on the camel" Jesus pbuh "on the ass" of Isaiah.


Secrets of Simeon ben Yohai said that about Mohammed saws but not Jesus, as a Muslim I say he is that rider which is in order and works better as even Metatron had to explain to Yohai that the rider/camel was a "Messianic agent."

They just didn't consider Jesus pbuh Messiah but we/I do.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: yuppa

Trying to call my faith into question isn't going to get me to engage you beyond this.

You didn't know the proper story about Ishmael, his blessings, why Abraham agreed to let him go(God promised to bless Ishmael).

Yet you need Ishmael to be illegitimate to suit your religous bias.

I have told you what the Bible and the Rabbis said about Ishmael (pbuh) AND in support of Mohammed (saws) from the 8th century AD.

You hate Ishmael, Islam, Mohammed (pbuh saws) regardless.

We have nothing to discuss anymore you are beat.

Show me the Biblical quote revoking Ishmaels blessing from God.

Then I will talk.

I did already post what you are disputing but you are trolling is what you are doing. Thie entire thread is a troll.

Bickering is not civil debate:
We expect civility and decorum within all topics.

Please stay on topic:
You are responsible for your own posts.


and, as always:

Do NOT reply to this post!!

rem,oved after seeing MOD post.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: paraphi


Mohammed saws is the "Rider on the camel" Jesus pbuh "on the ass" of Isaiah.


Secrets of Simeon ben Yohai said that about Mohammed saws but not Jesus, as a Muslim I say he is that rider which is in order and works better as even Metatron had to explain to Yohai that the rider/camel was a "Messianic agent."

They just didn't consider Jesus pbuh Messiah but we/I do.

Le tm eget this straight. you are A muslim and consider Jesus the messiah? How does that work? Dont most muslims consider Jesus a prohet and thats it?

a reply to: Disturbinatti

When I come back I'll fix everything.

Hold on.

I should have done this already.

Genesis 16:10 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said to her, "I will greatly multiply your offspring that they can not be counted.

That was Hagar receiving a message from an angel about what God will do for her child. God obviously cares about Ishmael and Hagar.

16:3 Abrams wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave girl, andgave her to her husband AS A WIFE.

Last I checked a wife, slave or not, was a wife and a son BY a wife is LEGITIMATE.

Making a spectactle of Hagar's being a slave is an immoral argument as a biological son is a son BUT they WERE MARRIED.

All you Anti-Ishmaelites with fetishes for trying to discredit your own scriptures in order to slander...Islam because it's connected to Ishmael, are finding out how little you know. Now.

Genesis 15, God makes Covenant with Abraham.

17 The Sign of the Covenant (chapter title)

18. "Oh that Ishmael may live in your sight!"

Says Abraham, who is told to establish an everlasting covenant for his offspring (Isaac), established with Isaac, we all know.

20. As for Ishmael, I have HEARD YOU; I WILL BLESS HIM AND MAKE HIM FRUITFUL AND EXCEEDINGLY NUMEROUS, THE FATHER OF TWELVE GREAT PRINCES.

Certainly the Covenant is "established" through Isaac, but Ishmael pbuh is still a MEMBER of said Covenant.

17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael and all the slaves in his house or bought with his money, EVERY MALE among the men of Abraham's house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, AS GOD HAD SAID TO HIM....

26. That same day Abraham AND HIS SON ISHMAEL WERE CIRCUMCISED.

So Ishmael was a member of Isaac's Covenant, inherited from Abraham by rite of circumcision, so who cares if it was established through Isaac, it doesn't void Ishmaels initiation, so to speak, as ordered by God in the first place, it just makes Isaacs special.

I will settle for God's blessing and being just a member of a Covenant, I don't need it to be through Jacob, as the Bible makes clear the line of Ishmael was a part of a Covenant that was performed with Abraham on the same day as Abraham and it is through circumcision.

It's as irrevocable as Isaac's special Covenant and so is God's blessings.

And the curse of Canaan, who because of Judah's 3 Canaanite wives, who knows maybe Judah's children who also married Canaanites, inherited it!

Point is if you need to insult Islam, through denigrating Ishmael and Hagar (and denying it most likely with some garbage "logic" as you contradict the Torah) or any religion period, you violate the second greatest commandment (and likely deny it too) to "Love your neighbor as yourself" and in the world of religion Abrahamic religions are neighbors and brothers of One God and many Prophets, even if we have slight differences the similarities are greater to the point it isn't an issue in the absence of religous bigotry.

Not my thing guys so I am not going to join in your little hate-speech, as I am comfortable enough with my Faith I don't need to attack others.

I don't need to be the "my religion is better than your religion" guy or make fallacious arguments because I actually know this stuff and I don't mind the little differences between our religions as some do.

I just quoted enough of the Bible to prove my point beyond dispute.

Without pretending to know a story I don't, because I know it well. Didn't think it was necessary to quote but if people who don't understand the Bible want to denigrate Ishmael and Mohammed (pbut)...

Well I just have let God tell you in your own scripture so I don't need to do anything ever again regarding justifying the legitimacy of Ishmael.

It's funny in my second message I stated I partially make this to show people just like that who say just these things to render Islam (in their half baked minds) illegitimate.

Even if it means misrepresenting the Torah.

Have fun revoking God's blessings!!

Seems futile, but I won't tell you how to waste your time. It's your wasted time.

Because if Ishmaels circumcision didn't count then neither did Abrahams but the chapter in which they get circumcised is titles in my Bible as "The Sign of the Covenant."

You people don't know your scriptures.

I should not have to explain Torah to you.

But I enjoy doing it because I know it well.

But I was once a "Christian" I thought.

Then I really read the whole Bible and realized that Paul is still the enemy of Jesus pbuh the "Wolf of Benjamin and leaven of the Pharisees.'' He hates James and "...men of James sent to spy on our freedom in Christ."

"Circumcision faction" is what he also calls them even with the Jerusalem Council declaration of it not being necessary to burden the Greeks/goyim with it.

Violates his agreement to abide by the prohibition (of the Holy Spirit as was the general decree of said council) against idol meat, which Paul rebukes as for "weak brothers."

Calls the Torah a curse, Abraham "an allegory" says that the Law was "Ordained by angels."

I know God isn't an angel and personally ordains the Law. Angels don't have anything to do with creating Law, or anything, God does everything Himself, despite how Genesis apparently reads, it's common in the Qur'an for God to refer to Himself as "We", constant actually, so I read it differently and so do Jews who refuse to believe angels participate in Creation as they don't exist until the "Luminaries" which means "Heavenly Hosts(bodies) and refers to the angels in the Tanakh constantly. (2/3 of the stars swept out of the shy means angels, for instance, Rev.).

And Jesus pbuh never knew Paul as he condemns his little idol meat teaching in Revelation as the teaching of Balaam...a stumbling block for Israel, he obviously wasn't revealing secrets to him or anything at all.

And he self appointed himself as an "apostle" while none of the 12 EVER refer to him as such and 12 is the maximum according to Rev., again that books is revealing as the 7 Churches of Asia are "All those who are in Asia have turned from me" and only hints at Paul as one who says he is an apostle and is not, is a liar, discovered, rejected and Jesus(pbuh) praises them.

Only one person in the Bible fits the description, and the rest supports it, they support each other, it is Paul.

"I think I am not the least inferior to these super-apostles."

They thought so.

He lies to James in Jerusalem regarding his anti-Mosaic teachings, denies he advocates abandoning the Law he calls "a curse."

So I converted to Islam because Jesus pbuh denies any equality with God and never asks to be worshipped or called "God." Not even in Christian books.

And Paul infiltrated and corrupted Nazarene Judaism into a dying god cult.

Besides Romans and Greeks, gentile Christians of no Judahite background have even less claim to any Covenant as they think God's "eternal Covenant" was revoked from Israel and given to them because "The Jews rejected Jesus."

But they love Paul, murderer for hire Pharisee who, like ibn Saba, set up a corrupt version of the right religion of a Prophet(pbuh) with his faith apart from works creed of sacrificial atonement through crucifixion of the Messiah.

That's the only negative words I will say about Christianity, Paul is corrupt. A serpent. Wolf in sheep clothes. Leaven.

a reply to: yuppa


All Muslims believe Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah.

Is how it works.

Not very scholarly, are you?

Not like I was under the impression I was talking to a giant in Intellect or anything...but...this is common knowledge that Muslims believe Jesus pbuh is the Messiah and Word of God.

Just not GOD.

To be fair I guess I can excuse your lack of knowledge of religion now. I thought you were religous and knew at least a little about Abrahamic religions.

My bad. Well you have the information you need to stop being so ridiculous about things, I would personally feel a fool for not knowing that I was arguing at(not with, I was hardly paying attention) one who believed in a religion that believes Jesus is the Messiah, Islam believes this and always has.

But since obviously you are not religous, don't know the Bible or Qur'an, why ARE you trying to debate?

Seems counterintuitive and counterproductive.

But that's me.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I personally Beleive Jesus was a seperate entity. And God Is omnipresent so he is also able to be in all or one body at the time. I mean he is God. theres nothing he cannot do correct? Isnt it possible that God could be more than just One peice of a whole? God is in everything including the details

What we are having is a disagreement on Who was the actual first born. ON my end and study Ishmael was Technically the first but God himself not a Angel told Abraham him and sarah HERSELF not through a surrogate would have the fated child.

Ishmael was granted a part of prophecy too to which I posted earlier. BOTH of the sons would go forth and multiply and rule over a part of humanity seperatly and would eventually be at odds with one another.

WE will never agree on the interpretation though. I think Muhammed flipped it upside down to enrich himself and legitimize his posistion. but you take him at his word. I dont.

@ th ePAul critic
Anyone with sense can tell whats Good and not to do. If you do the things Jesus said to do you need not even pay attention to paul.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

And I am religious but judge not lest you be judged. You are not God. you do not have that right. To say you do is Apostasy.Calling out the sin not you btw.

a reply to: yuppa


I am happy with you personally believing anything you want honestly.

Am I wrong or did you not insult my religion though and several times?

Happy to make peace, but still, and forgive me if I have you confused with someone else, is it ever appropriate to insult someone's religion in a way not based in fact, Biblical fact, which is clearly not hostile to Ishmael and is the exact opposite in reality?

Hagar was Abraham's wife.

God blessed and had Abraham circumcise him the same day he was.

I could swear you tried to denigrate Ishmael pbuh though...am I wrong?

I will look.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Disturbinatti

Ishmaael was not the first born of ABRAHAMS WIFE SARAH. God Promised SARAH that SHE PERSONALLY would bear the One who would rule. Issmael was born of a egyptian slave Haggar.

His WIFE, Hagar, you mean?

Ishmael was legitimate.

See?

BUT. Ishmael was also going to be allowwed to share in WHat Isaac was to inherit.

Go back and re read what God promised to Abraham and Sarah in the KJV(not the modern one but older one)

Ishmael got HIS OWN blessing and was in the Covenant BEFORE Isaac WAS BORN.

I already said this and knew this but you DIDN'T know Abraham and Hagar were married, and insist that this means Ishmael isn't the son of Abraham, when he WAS the first born of his wife, Hagar.

Which made Sarah jealous.

You trying to tell me go back and read it is absurd, considering.

No?

a reply to: yuppa

Oh and you talking about Islam (again correct me if...) while not knowing a basic fact like Jesus pbuh is the Messiah for Muslims is a bit...presumptous I guess?

Yes it is, you presumed he wasn't and I was a weird Muslim and asked how it "worked."

Because it's part of our religion it works fine.

a reply to: RisenMessiah

What are you talking about?

Fix?

Go ahead but I am certain I did already.

a reply to: yuppa



You don't know enough about Islam, like a basic fact about Jesus pbuh in Islam, your judgement of Islam means nothing.

And your speculations about Mohammed saws and his intentions are worthless.