Statue of Confederate General R.E.Lee Removed.

a reply to: Spider879

Until someone has an issue with that. A museum, funded with tax payer dollars, honoring a Southern soldier who fought for the right to hold slaves...? How dare they!!

If you can assure me that that won't happen, then you've solved the issue. I don't think you can, though...there's always going to be some over zealous nit wit who thinks out of sight equals out of mind. It just doesn't work that way.

Leave 'em standing out in the weather for people to look upon and ponder--hopefully some will be inspired to learn the entirety of the story, not just the sanitized versions that some would peddle, or the darker versions that others peddle. History generally has three facets, I've discovered. What I think. What someone else thinks. What actually was, and it's ramifications upon our lives today.

a reply to: seagull

I think there is room for compromise, which is what's missing in most debates these days.

As long as the history is preserved and available to the public in a setting like a museum, what's the harm in finding a way to preserve the history that's not offensive to many?

If they were to smash the statues and try to sanitize history, I'd be dead set against this. If history is preserved though and this helps in any way get past the racial issues of the past, I'm OK with it.

It's just one flag.

It's just one statue.

SMH

If we start removing things that are offensive, then where the heck does it end???

a reply to: seagull

I can give no assurance, but I think a museum minus the stuff he didn't want nothing to do with after the civil war or atleast an explanation that was not he was about ,make it known to all who commissioned it and why , along with his own thoughts and publications is of much more value.

As a Non American, it is quite interesting to observe discussions like this on ATS.

What an Incredible, but mixed-up country you can be at times.

You have achieved greatness, but also such Horror at the same time.

The European descendants in the USA, carry the same "Guilt" factor as the Germans do over WW2...

The African descendants in the USA, carry the same hatred to the "Masters" as the first African slaves did 100s of years ago.

Shouldn't the "African" slave descendants, have More hatred for the African Chieftans, and stronger tribes, that Actually sold the weaker black tribes to the European Man?

Could it be, because the Black Fellas that are in the USA, Dont really know What tribe they are from, they have in fact Lost their identity, and cutural Heritage, that they are Hating White man too much, when in possible reality, it was the result of other Africans, that caused them to be in the Americas, in the first place.?

I dont know....but I do believe that the black people in the USA, dont really know who they are, they are a lost peoples, a slave peoples, who cant identify with their heritage, with their ancestoral lands, with their country (not the USA, their African "Country)

As we know, most "White" Americans are proud to estow, they are of Irish stock or Scottish or Swedish or Prussian etc etc.

Ive never heard of an "African American" say they is proud to be of the Oingo Boingo tribe, or the WIlly nilly tribe in the horn of Africa etc, as an example.

Sadly, they just dont know who they are, where they come from, and really...why they are in the USA, what happened to "Their" country and tribe, and peoples, and culture?

Humans are social Tribal creatures, like nearly all animals.....much mistaken as "Racism" over the past 50 odd years...

That is well shown by this BLM movement, the Anti White movement.....it is all tribal, also a "Poor Fellow Me" mentality.

After all these years.......when was the last time an "African American" slave descendant said......

I Love the USA, and Im proud the African tribes captured my peoples and sold them to the European Colonists to be slaves, so we could help build this wonderful country, and grow to be an important part of it, and have a ready supply of beautiful white women at our Gangzta beck and call. And Yes, we Black Africans apologise to the Native Americans to whom we also invaded......but it wasn't our fault!!! .

I still keep wondering, if USA Black people hate whitey and the country so much.....Why dont they move "Home" to Africa?

Anyway....just an observation from an outsider.

To take down the statue was stupid and immoral.

The history of the black in America and even the current feelings towards the civil war should t outweigh the historical context of the time.

By removing the statue we are saying people's feelings about history are more important than the amazing history of the people who created this great nation.

a reply to: gort51

When people no longer care where their distant ancestors were from and care about the community they are a part of now, then it will be set straight.

We are clearly flawed; all of us no matter the country. Even you write in a way that shows your bias as a person writing from the perspective of where you are from. Tribalism is genetically ingrained in all of us. You need only go to a soccer or football game to see it play out in the behavior of the fans.

This debate over statues and flags is not really about statues and flags. It's far deeper than that.

If we have no opposing team to fight and argue with, we would simply invent one as it's so deeply a part of our nature as human beings. It was firmly planted in our genes when we were killing the neighboring tribe to survive because there was not enough resources for both tribes to exist.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
It's just one flag.

It's just one statue.

SMH

If we start removing things that are offensive, then where the heck does it end???

Who cares? It does not change our history, the significance of the people involved or the symbols surrounding that moment in our history.

People need to grow up and recognize that George Carlin was right. "Symbols are for the symbol-minded".

a reply to: Blaine91555

Absolutely true my friend, you are 100% correct.

I am inflicted (infected??) with the same tribal bias as every other human on our beautiful Planet.

But in a way, this cultural diversity is what makes the Human race so exciting and so dangerous at the same time.

I have no answer to the dilemma, other than the often pondered "Utopia", where people are virtual clones of each other, acting without emotion, without individuality, or imagination, or spontaneity,....and other big words I can't spell.

Me.....I actually like diversity......Like a Box of Chocolates......some are milk chocolates, some are Dark chocolate, some in between....

We should just all be happy, and do our best .....and try not to kill each other in the mean time.

But then there is Greed, power, money, gluttony, rage, jealousy, hate....etc etc...Oh to be Human.....

a reply to: Blaine91555

It's easy to call for compromise, less easy when one of the sides isn't willing to. Not just on this issue, either...

Not that I wouldn't be inclined to at least try to, because at the end of the day, I can learn these stories easily enough.

Will our kids, though? That's the bigger question. Will the history be there to be learned tomorrow? All of it?

This is an extremely slippery slope we're trying to negotiate. History is, IMHO, what it is. Good which can be really good, and bad which can be the stuff of nightmares.

Anything that smacks of whitewash bothers me. Too easily it can become, as we know from our childhoods in school, what the authors/PTB want it to be...and it's tough to get to the truth.

a reply to: gort51

The African descendants in the USA, carry the same hatred to the "Masters" as the first African slaves did 100s of years ago. Shouldn't the "African" slave descendants, have More hatred for the African Chieftans, and stronger tribes, that Actually sold the weaker black tribes to the European Man?

Actually some do, but slavery in of itself is not the cause of sore point, it was the continuation of attitudes towards AAs officially until about the 60ts and unofficially to the present, America had missed a number of key moments in history to come to terms with that past.

Could it be, because the Black Fellas that are in the USA, Dont really know What tribe they are from, they have in fact Lost their identity, and cutural Heritage, that they are Hating White man too much, when in possible reality, it was the result of other Africans, that caused them to be in the Americas, in the first place.?

Exact tribal or nation affiliation loss is a given, cultural heritage no, matter of fact it is very vibrant and fused with other cultures of the new world.. I take issue with hating white man too much, rebellion against racist in no way equates to hate.

Ive never heard of an "African American" say they is proud to be of the Oingo Boingo tribe, or the WIlly nilly tribe in the horn of Africa etc, as an example.

The Ongo Bingo tribe and the Willy Nillies are nothing to be proud of as they don't exist, however AAs are among the greatest users of genetic research to piece together links from one of their ancestral homeland Africa, this is complete with Afrocentric fashions, poetry and music..AAs can claim all parts of Africa as part of their general heritage.

I still keep wondering, if USA Black people hate whitey and the country so much.....Why dont they move "Home" to Africa?

Again you are laying hate at the feet of Black folks not to those who self i'd as white , and some did, others are making contacts, I am guessing you are from Australia pretty hard to get real insights from not having to talk to AAs.
Btw how are your own Black Fellas faring.

How does one compromise on the subject of censorship?

a reply to: seagull

I fully understand what you are saying.

Compromise is certainly something that seems unobtainable. We all want it our way or the highway and government and laws are supposed to be the glue that keeps us from loading our guns and going at it. Sadly our leadership is lacking.

In the end I suppose the result would be the same whether the statues were left alone or not. We would still be fighting over them.

I am a believer like you, that history needs to be preserved no matter how ugly and in particular the ugly parts of it.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
How does one compromise on the subject of censorship?

I think you're over thinking it. Suggesting a compromise where the history is preserved and the statues are still in a public venue is not truly censorship. It's just changing the location of the statues.

Were they to smash the statues as I said, then I'd be screaming from the rooftops.

Is compromise possible? Likely not? Both sides MUST have their own way and not even try to understand the view of the other side.

When I look at this topic, I think what would it be like for me if say someone murdered someone I love and they had a statue honoring them in the town square where I had to walk by it every day?

This subject has more to it than just is it censorship to move the statues. Those who wanted it gone have a valid reason as does the other side who want it to stay.

There are a few people on ATS that glamorize a new civil war. They may call it a revolution but we know what they mean.

No compromise, The useless eaters need to be eliminated to actually "Make America Great Again"...

Not much more extreme than this attitude....

I still keep wondering, if USA Black people hate whitey and the country so much.....Why dont they move "Home" to Africa?

a reply to: Blaine91555

But opponents want it gone, they want it all gone. Shut away, behind closed doors so to speak.

Sure, put it in a building.

Then lock up the building.

The Civil War has been over for a few years now. Ever wonder why people are pissing themselves over it now?

a reply to: DBCowboy

That's why I suggested compromise to keep it in the public venue and history intact. Does not mean it will happen, but it should.

I can see both sides of the debate having a point and clearly there is no solution that would please everyone.

I've watched history being rewritten just in my lifetime and I'm sensitive to that.

I'm willing to wager that if they removed them without an announcement and just put them in a museum or on a military base, the outcry would be very low.

This was made to be a big issue on purpose. It will happen again. Frogs in a pot.

originally posted by: cleverhans
I've always enjoyed visiting new orleans, partly because it has such a rich history that many other american cities do not have. Whether that history is deemed good or bad is irrelevant, because it's simply a part of the city's past and is what makes new orleans new orleans. Right now, it looks like a city that has lost it's identity, it's uniqueness, and I honestly don't have much desire to visit there anymore.

I used to go back my "adopted State" on a frequent basis. After the hurricane , things changed . Louisiana became everything the opposite of what it used to be. Especially New Orleans. I no longer go back , but remember the old days.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I think it's censorship. And there is no compromise when it comes to that.

You'll never eliminate "offense". Ever.

As for "just taking it away"?

In a previous post, you said this.

When I look at this topic, I think what would it be like for me if say someone murdered someone I love and they had a statue honoring them in the town square where I had to walk by it every day?

Now I'm not going to 'censor" you, but I am going to take away some "words" that offended me.

When I look at this topic, I love a statue in the town square where I had to walk

Changes things, doesn't it? Just by "removing" a "few words" that I may have found offensive.