The USA was born in violence

a reply to: Apollumi

Agreed the United States was Born in violence, unfortunately so were most nations past and present, it's the story of civilization it's self.
With that said, as a mental exercise, what if Washington's or Jefferson's slaves rose up and killed them, or pulled off a Haiti .or the Seminole wars ended differently.
See violence can be praised or disavowed depending on who is carrying out the action or the winners in that conflict.

a reply to: Apollumi

THE WORLD was born in violence. Eat or be eaten. Take or be taken. Rule or be ruled.

No one said the fairy godmother was going to grant you paradise. You have to make it, and in order to do so, someone else had to suffer for it.

Yours is bigger than mine (no, don't go there) so I'm taking it. Now MINE is bigger than his.

We've just replaced it all with money...

You shouldn't forget that many of the rebels were people who left the old world to get away from the rigid class structure that kept them and their ancestors down. That or they were the descendants of those who did just that.


No way are people like that going to give up their liberty.


And let's not forget that had the Crown done the sensible thing and guaranteed proper, democratic representation for the Colonies, then that war might not have happened at all.


Either way, it's nice we all made up and got friendly again

originally posted by: Apollumi
Well, sometimes I just went in the woods. Baking in the summer heat makes an outhouse less appealing.

Never seen an outhouse without a door of some sort. So you dumped in the back yard? It takes a bold man to do that while people watch. Suburbs perhaps?

The freeway wasn't too bad. You just had to avoid being hit by a car when you went. The train noise made it hard to sleep sometimes. But there were plenty of homeless people around to keep you warm. The fire barrel was nice.

I am 1/4 Cherokee. My cousins are full Cherokee. I think many Indian tribes celebrate Thanksgiving which would seem ironic don't you think?

What is, is. Nothing can be done about a people who wanted to preserve themselves by accepting less and less until nobody could fight back. Hoping, that those folks who had an upper hand would show mercy. Live a slave, hoping those that have the upper hand will show mercy.

This thread is about those folks that made the USA by kicking the ass of those that had the upper hand. It takes a little spirit of spunk to beat the odds. But if you surrender, you will be counted among the footnotes of history.

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: Apollumi

Agreed the United States was Born in violence, unfortunately so is most nations past and present.
With that said, as a mental exercise, what if Washington's or Jefferson's slaves rose up and killed them, or pulled off a Haiti .or the Seminole wars ended differently.
See violence can be praised or disavowed depending on who is carrying out the action or the winners in that conflict.

a reply to: Apollumi


America and The British have the same thing in common.
They conquered through violence.

The USA was born in violence

Yup

After it was all said and done,people at some point started chanting "violence isn't the answer"
Really???
It seemed to work for the conquering nations??

Instead we are much softer now

That's because people believe and live by the "violence isn't the answer" slogans.

Not condoning violence but am not about to condone a mindless slogan either.
If violence isn't the answer....can someone please tell me what the actual question is??

Revolutions don't happen with jellybeans and fuzzy teddy bears.

You don't stop a bully by running and telling and calling a lawyer...you kick his ass.
Our society is so soft..its pretty pathetic.

a reply to: Apollumi

Nature is violence. Our society exists in literally the most peaceful eras in all of history and even now it is STILL very violent.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Apollumi

Nature is violence. Our society exists in literally the most peaceful eras in all of history and even now it is STILL very violent.

#ViolentLivesMatter

for historians, well.. tl;dr

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Apollumi
Well, sometimes I just went in the woods. Baking in the summer heat makes an outhouse less appealing.

Never seen an outhouse without a door of some sort. So you dumped in the back yard? It takes a bold man to do that while people watch. Suburbs perhaps?

The freeway wasn't too bad. You just had to avoid being hit by a car when you went. The train noise made it hard to sleep sometimes. But there were plenty of homeless people around to keep you warm. The fire barrel was nice.

Really? I was homeless for a short while. It sucked. I am on the verge of being so again. Not long ago I had a $100k a year job working for a military contractor. Out of conscience I quit. I don't regret the decision but being homeless sucks. The fear, the fear.... I often wondered if that was how I would end. I might this time.

Only last night I dreamed about the guy I had worked for at the military contractor. Really liked the guy, hated the end result of what I was doing since it will likely play a small bit part in WW III. In my dream he was telling me to come back to work, to be there Monday. Odd dream. They told me when I left "Everybody comes back to us". Ooopsss, a little maniacal laughter nearly escaped my lips...

a reply to: Apollumi

I understand, just don't want folks to revel too much in violence because like all wars, the reality wasn't pretty although it may have been necessary, if the Brits had gave them more autonomy, it's just possible we would be raising the Union Jack, instead of the Stars and Stripes and singing god save the queen.

a reply to: Apollumi

Yes, it is a sad state of affairs when life is no more than refreshments for a tree of liberty
The corrupt and evil always rise to the top in this world

I don't like it, what can you do

a reply to: DrumsRfun

As did the French Spanish Portuguese Romas Egyptians Babylonians et al. No-one conquers without violence, its the nature of conquering.

For all those that bemoan the UK USA and other conquering nations, its a fact that these countries have evolved into (arguably) great nations and EVERYONE benefits from that whether it be healthcare and education or tv & internet. Whatever is done is done and there is no going backwards we all continually march onwards. Yes its all very sad about American Slavery its also sad about South American slavery Arabian slavery Chinese slavery and in fact any slavery that continues today which to me is a more important issue than harping on about slavery of the distant past. We can't do anything about that but we can try and prevent current slavery in many many parts of the world. I would be interested to know from American blacks whether they would prefer to be living in Africa without all the technology and benefits they have in America, the America many seem to so totally despise.

Civilisations disappear over time as a result of many influences. Just look to history to see the civilisations that have crumbled. The strong survive those that adapt survive those that accept and learn from their conquerors influences survive. Those that continually fought against "progress" are no longer with us like many tribes of Europe there is NO going back.

originally posted by: Apollumi
So, how many nations around the world have evolved as you imagine it?

Quite a few actually if you did some work to look. Had the American Revolution not happened and not been actively supported by e.g. the French, the world would be different, yet the USA would have gained independence at some stage – the British Empire was close down last century.

For example, if the USA was part of the British Empire when slavery was abolished across the Empire, the US may be a significantly different society today, possibly with no American Civil War and the divisive race problems that persist today.

a reply to: Apollumi
I would argue that the U.S. was born out of ideology and forced by the hand of tyranny.

The violence was an unfortunate side effect of jettisoning said tyranny.

I think that the founding fathers, while disheartened by what our federal government has become, would be glad that this country provides the ability to be "much softer now with an [easy] life" that they could not have imagined. That's exactly what they were fighting for--so that future generations wouldn't have to live under tyrannical rule and be concerned everyday about the safety of their person, possessions, or livelihood.

a reply to: Apollumi

As William Burroughs wrote in Naked Lunch:

America is not a young land: it is old and dirty and evil before the settlers, before the Indians. The evil is there waiting.

I'd always wondered what he meant by that.

America has become an extention of what we fought against, so did we win or was it part of a bigger plan?
I think that if it were to happen again now and the people win things would be different after the dust settles we we make sure that the government will only be what it was meant to be. ..by and for the people.

In the beginning, the countries of Europe sent their people in prison there to come and acquire this country from the Native Americans. They paid them handsomely for doing so and those people became businessmen that took control of this country. They were involved in breaking away from England, they saw they could capitalize better on their own by passing laws that benefitted them and brought the wealth to them instead of sending it to other countries.

Yup, some of our forefathers who started this country were offspring of criminals. Washington cut down the cherry tree, defying his parents best interests. We were conditioned wrong right from the get-go. We were forced to believe in deceivers who wanted to make us into surfs, what evolved was probably worse than what it was like in England. But people were deceived to think it was going to be better.

Those people who ruthlessly climb the ladder, stepping on others head along the way, are praised for their actions by society. Yeah, my kid is now a big wheel in the Pharma company or in Washington DC. How did they get to the top, by being nice? No, the presidents are deceivers, most were trained lawyers, they actually know how to twist things to show things to get people out of trouble. Most high ranking lawyers get real criminals released, they don't usually protect the innocent. The president is chosen for their ability to deceive people, but in the case of this election, too many skeletons were in Clinton's closet, a person who gets caught for their deceptions is not qualified for the job.

Decievers actually write the laws, they leave loopholes. That is the way it is, not only in this country but in most countries around the globe. If someone is a worthless worker and disturbs the ability of the other workers....promote them to management to get them from screwing things up. In the case of politics, send them to Washington, maybe they might get something for your people.

This isn't always true, but it does and has happened a lot throughout the history of this country. The squeeky wheel always gets more grease, we have to make sure we grease their palms to keep them from giving us problems.

a reply to: Apollumi

Kinda....

There was absolutely violence.. and has been in almost every major administration shift in history..sans America if you count our elections new governments of course..

But how heavy the British yoke was is VERY debatable ..

Same with the Civil War it usually comes down to one or two very specific groups of elite characters deciding to seize power..

Your average peasant class has never really cared, because it has rarely even mattered...

The elite state administrators didn't see the point in paying the crown its cut, when they could just keep it them selves.

a reply to: Apollumi

Exactly!! That's the fighting spirit I'm talking about! Then the British came with there holier than thou stuck up attitudes and there fancy bedpans and cloths and what did the colonials do? They whooped those shiny redcoat butts real good!

a reply to: Apollumi

I find that some Americans are totally ungrateful for what Britain did in North America.

Britain had to send troops and the navy to fight The French and The Spanish in North America ( Queen Anne's War ) and also to fight in The Anglo-Cherokee War to name but two.

Had Britain not bothered and left The American Colonist to fend for themselves, then probably the 13 Colonies would never have survived for them to declare their independence. All we ever from Americans is that The British where tyrants.

Americans need to look deeper into their history to understand how grateful they should be to Britain.