Originally posted by NuTroll
perhaps when they are in the house they should keep the firearm on them? in a holster. 2ndly , teach their kids about guns so its not such a cool thing.

arent only semi autos banned under "assualt rifle ban"? i think ak47 are sill illegal even though that bill expired.

we should have both, both are in the 2nd ammendment. state militia and the right to bear arms of the populace.

[edit on 2005-2-4 by NuTroll]

Let me get straight your going to sleep at night with your gun?
I hope you have good hearing while your a sleep otherwise by the time you have noticed the intruder he/she has stolen your watch and is pointing a gun at you. What use is your gun then?

As for the 2nd ammendment some common sense is needed you dont suppose your taking the 2nd ammendment out of context?
I suspect the 2nd ammendment was put in place to ensure the new nation could defend itself against the english.
Are the english still a threat ?

If you don't have kids it isn't necesary to lock up your firearms. I have a shotgun loaded with birdshot under my bed. If someone breaks in I don't even have to kill them, a load of birdshot will take them down. And even if they have a gun, they will be more worried about the excruciating pain in their legs and crotch to worry too much about shooting back.

Originally posted by xpert11
Let me get straight your going to sleep at night with your gun?
I hope you have good hearing while your a sleep otherwise by the time you have noticed the intruder he/she has stolen your watch and is pointing a gun at you. What use is your gun then?

Of course I don’t sleep with my pistol under my pillow. It’s in the top drawer right next to me. Loaded but not chambered and yes my wife knows how to use it also. If I hear someone as they are trying to break in my home or as soon as they do…they are screwed. If as you say, I wake up and he/she is pointing a gun at me, obviously I’m screwed. I at least like the opportunity.

As for the 2nd ammendment some common sense is needed you dont suppose your taking the 2nd ammendment out of context?
I suspect the 2nd ammendment was put in place to ensure the new nation could defend itself against the english.
Are the english still a threat ?

No but the idea of me having something more than a shotgun or hunting rifle in my opinion helps to, however minutely, keep our government in check. Not just me of course but millions like me. I love my country but I like to keep an eye on her.

I’ve had an AK for many years now. It’s not a threat to anything except the targets I set out for it. I even like my neighbors too much to consider it home protection lol. In my opinion like most things here in America today, it all comes down to “personal responsibility”.

I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone but like a lot of the things in the world today, don’t let the insane minority speak for the majority.


[edit on 5-2-2005 by Ruins]

No but the idea of me having something more than a shotgun or hunting rifle in my opinion helps to, however minutely, keep our government in check. Not just me of course but millions like me. I love my country but I like to keep an eye on her.

I’ve had an AK for many years now. It’s not a threat to anything except the targets I set out for it. I even like my neighbors too much to consider it home protection lol. In my opinion like most things here in America today, it all comes down to “personal responsibility”.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Ruins]

There is a way of keeping the government in check without guns its called voting.
Outside of the USA people who think guns reduce crime are the minority. With all do respect America dosnt seem to know what personal responsibility is I know straight away if a product is made in the USA it has caution labels all over the packet.
I have nothing against people using rifles for hunting but after the game has been shot the likes of rifles and other guns have no role in everyday life.
You want to stop crime get to know your neighbors collect there mail when they go on holidays and feed there pets or just keep an eye on there place.
How many crimes has your AK prevented ?
How many AKs have been used to commit a crime?

Originally posted by xpert11
There is a way of keeping the government in check without guns its called voting.

lol, yes I totally agree. I'm not the militia type if that’s what you think.

I have nothing against people using rifles for hunting but after the game has been shot the likes of rifles and other guns have no role in everyday life.

I would have to say sport. I really enjoy shooting my AK. It doesn't accomplish anything but like on the 4th of July it's fun to make noise some times.

You want to stop crime get to know your neighbors collect there mail when they go on holidays and feed there pets or just keep an eye on there place.

Sadly not all of America is like Mayberry.

How many crimes has your AK prevented?

It doesn't matter, I'm not a cop.

How many AKs have been used to commit a crime?

Honestly I don't know but I'm sure the AK has killed more people than any other modern rifle to date if that’s where you are going. Again it doesn't matter, mine has committed 0 crimes.

I would have to say sport. I really enjoy shooting my AK. It doesn't accomplish anything but like on the 4th of July it's fun to make noise some times.

Nothing wrong with that but there is no need for the AK to leave the firing range.

. Sadly not all of America is like Mayberry.

Who is Mayberry?

How many AKs have been used to commit a crime?
Honestly I don't know but I'm sure the AK has killed more people than any other modern rifle to date if that’s where you are going. Again it doesn't matter, mine has committed 0 crimes.

So in effect your saying that your gun has prevented crime because you havent used your AK to commit a crime?
Guns are useful in a controlled environment example the military outside of that environment they are a liability.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by xpert11]

[edit on 5-2-2005 by xpert11]

This may be a decent analogy but I doubt it. Most people were raised in a manner in which they will not cross a street with out looking both ways. It becomes natural or second nature to look around because it’s the safe thing to do. In my opinion the same thing applies to gun safety, if you are properly introduced/taught about guns, not in a military manner but a safety and common sense manner. Treat all guns as if they are loaded and never point them at some one unless you intend to kill them. I think ‘do not ingest’ and ‘keep away from children’ go with out saying.

edit: please don't misstake what I meant by "not in a military manner". Obviously if your are in the military you know your sh1t when it comes to weapons LOL.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Ruins]

Some kids will play with guns because its like smoking there dads cigars they know there not spose to hence guns should be kept under lock and key.
Even if you can teach kids to respect guns that dosnt prevent crime.
Fire a rocket lanucher on a firing range by all means as long as it stays on the firing range.

Ruins I am enjoying this debate you are using logic makes a nice change.

Originally posted by xpert11
Ruins I am enjoying this debate you are using logic makes a nice change.

Thank you sir. I'm enjoying it as well.

I will have to admit that my view of things is probably a little different from the norm. Like I said earlier I was introduced to guns at an early age. My dad just felt it was better to take the mystery away early and show me how to safely and correctly use a firearm. I’m with you on things like RPGs, explosives etc. though. I don’t feel the need to make that much noise.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Ruins]

Well your Dad did the right thing teaching you about guns from an early age because even if guns arent kept in the top draw its still important to educate kids about the dangers.
Are your views really that differnt? A lot of Americans seem to have the flawed view that guns prevent crime and keep you safe.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by xpert11]

Originally posted by Halfofone
Good points ruin,

I will say also, if a 5 year old shoots his brother/friend/self, it is the fathers duty to explain to the child what the gun does, how dangerous it can be, and must teach that child to FEAR and RESPECT that weapon.

Yeah but that doesnt change the fact that we see kids kill each other many times.
You cant use the argument of "oh if they didnt have guns, they would have used a knife instead" so it was the guns killing children, not the childs desire. Kids that young have no comprehension of what guns can do.

Guns have no place in any civilised soceity, it took one mass shooting in Britain to have guns banned and you know what, there hasnt been another one in over 10 years since that happened.

Originally posted by xpert11
AS for the 2nd ammendment some common sense is needed you dont suppose your taking the 2nd ammendment out of context?
I suspect the 2nd ammendment was put in place to ensure the new nation could defend itself against the english.
Are the english still a threat ?

You need to look at the times that the second amendment was included. The Americans just fought a war against a repressive government. They felt that if its citizens were armed that it would be almost impossible for them to become subjects to any form of repressive government again. They felt so strongly about it that they put the amendment right after the right to religious beliefs. The amendments were all about individual rights.


Article [II.]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

While reading article 2 you will notice that the use of commas separates independent clauses. The comma after the word State makes the clause the right of the people to keep and bear arms separate from the clause talking about the State. So you have the National Guard and the right of citizens to keep arms. They were talking about different entities (State, citizens aka people) that have the same right, the right to bear arms.

Use a comma + a little conjunction (and, but, for, nor, yet, or, so) to connect two independent clauses, as in "He hit the ball well, but he ran toward third base."

A clause is a group of related words containing a subject and a verb A clause can be usefully distinguished from a phrase, which is a group of related words that does not contain a subject-verb relationship, such as "in the morning" or "running down the street" or "having grown used to this harassment."

Ruins, I used to have a ploytech AK. Man I loved that rifle. Had to sell her in hard times. I am hoping that polytech starts to sell them in the US again now that the federal ban has expired.



[edit on 5-2-2005 by cryptorsa1001]

You guys cant be serious...

Assault guns a good idea?

Why?

Would the country be better if EVERYONE had one?

American citizens to my knowledge have more freedoms than any other country that I know about. One of the reasons for this is because american citizens own firearms. WE can't be bullied into become subjects. I saw on antoher post about a woman eating an apple somewere in London while driving, she was chased by a helicopter and then when cops in vehicles caught up they gave give her a ticket. If thats what you want from your government then okay but not here. When you have freedom you have people that abuse those freedoms and that is just part of living in a society with freedom. Alcohol kills more people than all of the gun related deaths in america combined. So called assault weapons are used in very few crimes. Cocaine is illegal and there is probably more coc aine in america then ever before. Making something illegal does not get rid of the problems associated with that item. If drugs were made legal then gun related homicides would go down, way down. I am not advocating legalizing drugs but you get my point.

Originally posted by alternateheaven
Nice tactic they use with the video of a full-auto weapon being discharged. Problem with that is they have been illegal to own for ages under some bill which I cannot remember the name of.

It was the National Firearms Act of 1934

I agree its a common tactic they uses, even using the Term "Assault Weapon" to Classify semi-auto rifles is its own tactic. It tends to confuse people that dont know alot about firearms. They confuse Machine guns and what the Goverment likes to call ''Assault weapons''.

They also like to use the names of the guns that have no seperate name from their semi-auto versions. AK-47 is on such example unlike the M-16 with its well known civilian name the AR-15. Using AK-47 makes most people think of the full auto version they see terrorist or military troops using.

scare tactics that work on only those that dont know much about firearms

I have an angle for the pro-gun side that probably is seldom discussed; protection from non-human danger. Snakes you front lawn, bears and raccoons in the garbage, and coyotes trying to kill your livestock. I have on numerous times had to bring a loaded gun outside with me when walking my dogs to keep coyotes from coming up and killing my dogs. What would those anti-gun people have farmers do to protect their crops and animal from predators who would kill and destroy them?

Originally posted by xpert11
Let me get straight your going to sleep at night with your gun?
I hope you have good hearing while your a sleep otherwise by the time you have noticed the intruder he/she has stolen your watch and is pointing a gun at you. What use is your gun then?

As for the 2nd ammendment some common sense is needed you dont suppose your taking the 2nd ammendment out of context?
I suspect the 2nd ammendment was put in place to ensure the new nation could defend itself against the english.
Are the english still a threat ?

Oh, yes, burglars are unstoppable crime machines who break into your house without a sound and can't be killed except by silver bullets, and if they bite you, you become one. No, a gun in the bedroom is really a reasonable solution. Odds are the burglar is not going to risk going into your room because they don't want to wake you up. Burglars are afraid of homeowners in America, because there is a real chance of being shot.

The 2nd amendment is not out of context. Read the actual documents written by Jefferson and the gang. There are THREE main reasons for the 2nd amendment: defense from foreign invaders, self-defense from criminals, and defense from a tyrannical government. It is for all three of these reasons that it is wrong to deny people armament.

One might think it would be common sense to deny ordinary people "assault" weapons, but you never know. In the inner city ghetto you just might want to have some extra firepower. In those areas you don't always face robbers one at a time.

For foreign invaders or a rebellion you definitely can't limit your options, because in those instances the enemy is likely to be extremely well armed. Elections only happen once a year, and people aren't always as smart as they think they are. 'Free' education and health care go a long way towards bribing people to let you trample their freedoms. Sometimes voting isn't enough to stop something wrong from happening, and for that reason armed rebellion must remain an option. It should be the last option on the list, but it must remain on the list.

To deny armament to the people is to pave the way for a police state. To allow people weapons but take away anything that's too fast, too accurate, too ugly, or too powerful according to a set of arbitrary standards is almost more devious.

Originally posted by alternateheaven
I have an angle for the pro-gun side that probably is seldom discussed; protection from non-human danger. Snakes you front lawn

They sell special rounds just for that type of thing, I use to have some for a .357 it was like a mini birdshot made up of really tiny BBs. I remember I shot a plastic bottle from a few yards away just to see what the round was like it didnt even go through the bottle. It was like it sand blasted the bottle.

'Powerful weak' But I guess near point blank to a snakes head and they would do the trick. Plus they are much easier to hit something small with such a big spread compared to a slug.


[edit on 5-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
American citizens to my knowledge have more freedoms than any other country that I know about. One of the reasons for this is because american citizens own firearms. WE can't be bullied into become subjects.

Do you have any facts to back up this rubbish?
Name one right (other then to bear arms) that americans have that non Americans dont have?
Its a persons choice to drink alcohol . Somehow I dont think someone would choose to be shot by someone exercising there 2nd amenment right.
There are other ways to defend yourself that dont involve guns.

Originally posted by xpert11

There are other ways to defend yourself that dont involve guns.

Not when the person trying to harm you has a gun. Your pretty limited in how to defend yourself in those cases.