Miss USA: Not a feminist, also healthcare is a privilege.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: SaturnFX

In terms of healthcare, you are forcing a doctor to work on you. that to me is a privilege.

Under a single payer system are you under the impression that the DR is going to have a gun to his head? The Dr is going to be compensated.

Yes, the doctor has a gun to his head. He or she didn't know that when entering med school of course. It's only after that doctors find out they don't control what prices they can charge, what procedures they can use, what medicines they can prescribe, or, indeed, control anything about how they practice. That's all handled by government edict, insurance providers, etc.

Now, we all know it's a big world and there probably will always be people who want to be doctors or work in the medical field. And one way or another prospective doctors will find incentives to enter the field, including government subsidies to their education, fleeting visions of a good-paying job, etc.

But....what if all the doctors became so fed up with the system that they quit? There is nothing preventing all of them resigning, is there? What if they all said, "Screw it. I'd rather dig ditches!" Yes, it's a big hypothetical that won't happen. We already acknowledged that, but it leads to a further question: How would you exercise your "right to healthcare" if no one was there to provide it for you?'

That's why it isn't a "right." That we have chosen in our culture to provide coast guards, fire stations, and libraries and tax ourselves to do that does not mean these are "rights" at all. They are the result of collective decisions. If no one wishes to provide these services everyone seems to think are their "right" to have, then you don't get them. You would have to create a slave class and force your slaves to provide these services through involuntary servitude.

I think we can all agree that beer should be a right.

a reply to: schuyler

I disagree with your opinion. It's a right because people do not have a choice NOT to use it.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
I think we can all agree that beer should be a right.

No, beer is not a right because you can always choose not to drink. If you need to go to the hospital you do not have a choice to shop around.

originally posted by: schuyler
That's why it isn't a "right." That we have chosen in our culture to provide coast guards, fire stations, and libraries and tax ourselves to do that does not mean these are "rights" at all. They are the result of collective decisions. If no one wishes to provide these services everyone seems to think are their "right" to have, then you don't get them. You would have to create a slave class and force your slaves to provide these services through involuntary servitude.

Good followup.
Collective decision. I like that wording.

originally posted by: whyamIhere
Healthcare is not a right.

You have lots of Rights.

But, forcing a doctor to work for less than market value.

Sorry...

I disagree with your opinion. If you need to go to the hospital you only choice is to die. People under death threat will pay for anything. It's not the same thing as buying bubble gum.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: SaturnFX
I think we can all agree that beer should be a right.

No, beer is not a right because you can always choose not to drink. .

well yeah, if you're a monster!

Actually, you don't need to go to a hospital. You can pick up a med book and learn yourself. you use a hospital the same way you use a car mechanic..because you can't be bothered to learn it so will hire out professionals that did learn it to do stuff for you.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: amazing
I would say Healthcare is a right, especially if you pay Taxes, Insurance and work full time. I do all three. I pay taxes every year for decades, I've paid Health Insurance for decades, I've worked full time for decades.

If you pay for insurance, then you are paying for a privilege
Do you pay a speech tax every year? no...because thats your right. you dont need to buy into the ability to speak your mind, you just do it..for free...soapbox not included

You pay for insurance in order to help with the cost of healthcare. healthcare costs because its not a right, its a privilege

We should be able to afford Healthcare in that case.

This is a different discussion.
I think its in the best interest of everyone to get healthcare costs down to a minimum in order to keep people healthy. I think, like charity or other social programs, we have the privilege as a rich society to pool a bit of money together and help out the poor and so we could have the great prideful landmark of providing cheap/free healthcare (vouchers?) to those in need. Helps everyone out if this is a thing

But that isn't a right, thats just "the right thing"

Agree with the above, PLUS if it is a "right" then since we live in a society that is governed by a Constitution one should be able to find this health care right that it contains. I've never found that right in the Constitution. If one believes that the Constitution should contain that right, the Constitution contains a method to include it. This method has occurred 27 times before. Isn't it handy? Problem solved.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: PepeTalk

Hating her position on a political issue doesn't mean the "left hates her". People are NOT the words that come out of their mouth. You can criticize what someone says or their behavior and still love and respect them.

Why do you think people ARE what they say? What weird delusional world do you live in????

So progressive. Why judge people on words or actions? I should be more like you and base it off melanin.

a reply to: SaturnFX

You gotta realize.....it really doesn't matter what she thinks. I look at her and I think to myself.....Yea, she's perfect to be Miss USA.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: whyamIhere
Healthcare is not a right.

You have lots of Rights.

But, forcing a doctor to work for less than market value.

Sorry...

I disagree with your opinion. If you need to go to the hospital you only choice is to die. People under death threat will pay for anything. It's not the same thing as buying bubble gum.

And again you are wrong
You don't get free food at the grocery store because you are starving. you aren't entitled to it
You can learn to hunt rats or eat bark or something...its not a right to eat, even though not eating will certainly kill you.
paying for the convenience of not having to hunt/fish for food is nice though
paying for convenience of expert medical care is also nice.

I am still in the whole lets try out a 2 option system like colombia/mexico/etc

a reply to: schuyler

We could look to other countries to see if any of these things are indeed happening.

Next time talk to your Dr about how much they pay to belong to their network.

Before Ocare my general prac Dr pays $3,000 a day to belong. Yes that is every day 5 days a week. Dr. takes a 2 week vaca- $30,000. Sounds like the system was broken and is broken-it will crash if the corps have no choke chain applied.

a reply to: SaturnFX

MY thoughts are that healthcare is neither a right nor a privilege. Providing for yourself is a responsibility. If someone wants (or even needs) to have a medical procedure performed, it is their responsibility to figure out how to pay for their own needs, PERIOD. Just because it directly ties to physical health shouldn't make it any different from any other commodity exchanged for money, time, or barter. Your healthcare is only your responsibility, not my responsibility, not the responsibility of society in general.

There are 2 things going on here

1) ideological purity
On one hand, the right ideological stance is that its not a right, it is a capitalistic chase and therefore should only go for people who pay

On the other hand, the left stance is that it should be a right, because sick people suck.

2) The reality we live in however is gonna require a mixing. cost is out of control. has been under a pure capitalist model, and will be crappy service under a purely government function. no ideological purity will work here and so a mixing of the two (as mentioned from other nations with the best healthcare systems on place on earth) will be the ultimate solution.

Once both sides understand this, then a coherent and sensible plan can be put forward. until then however, we are spinning our wheels as costs shoot through the ozone.

Rights are easier and simply just a joy to defend.

Because who would want to be against rights?

Right?

So if they can convince people that healthcare is a right, then selling the masses a "single-payer" system or socialized medicine would be a simple maneuver.

The other issue is see is that many think that government grants rights.


Governments create programs, governments do NOT grant rights.

"Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable (i.e., rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws). ... The concept of natural law is closely related to the concept of natural rights."

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Are you in favor of insurance, this is only the healthy paying and the sick taking. This happens private (health care insurance corps) and public (medicaid).

I would like to see for profits out lawed-or insurance outlawed. Let the true market adjust prices-I would almost be certain that the health care industry would collapse with out privatized socialism.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I have the right to do whatever I want with my body (except suicide..never quite understood that.)

Exactly. Agreed.

That isn't what is being discussed here in terms of healthcare. the subject is going to a hospital or doctor...

That's what I'm discussing, and what we should all be discussing, because it is the very heart and crux of the situation -- at least in terms of rights, especially versus privileges and entitlements. It is government intervention and interference in so many ways which has put quality healthcare out of reach for so many people -- even people with the best health insurance available and all the resources necessary to pay for the best medical care money can buy. Even to the point that nature-given healing plants are criminalized and people are persecuted for self-medicating. Thanks to government, we are forced into a healthcare system that legally mandates Big Pharma to put profits before our health -- literally. People are not just suffering because of it, people are dying because of it. Because government got in the way of our right to nurture, nurse and sustain our lives.

Our absolute inalienable natural right to healthcare must be the foundation and first principle of any and all discussion of healthcare, and the driving principle for reform. There should be no question whatsoever that everyone has the right to healthcare. The question should be what is the most appropriate and proper role for government in protecting and ensuring our right to healthcare. And it sure as hell isn't what they've been doing.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
cost is out of control. has been under a pure capitalist model, and will be crappy service under a purely government function.

Healthcare hasn't been under a pure capitalist model for quite some time and that is the vast majority of why costs have skyrocketed out of control. Providers charge whatever government subsidies and welfare programs will pay plus whatever government programs will allow them to add to paying patients' bills to cover the ones who don't pay. Healthcare is a perfect example of why government meddling in the free market, and the introduction of socialist practices into a capitalist system, always create a crappier, more expensive product.

a reply to: SaturnFX

The two option system is what I enjoy in the UK. There is an exception with 999 emergency calls where the paramedics will always be state employees who'll take you to a tax funded ER, but there are also private paramedic companies and hospitals with insurance plans.

I've always been happy with the NHS so I've never taken an insurance policy out. A few of my friends have private insurance and get seen by specialist surgeons quicker.
Often it will be the same specialist who is contracting for the NHS and an insurance company/private hospital.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Are you in favor of insurance,

No, not really. I think insurance combined with public subsidy programs are why it costs so much to begin with. I don't agree with mandating the healthy paying for the sick.