VP Mike Pence says Islamic State is carrying out genocide on Christians. Vows to destroy it.

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: Byrd

They were also getting weapons from the USA. They did a good job of playing everybody with small non-aligned cells to try to get what they could from the big boys, and then simply funnel them back to their primary group. Once the jig was up, many of the smaller groups simply disappeared and reabsorbed into their parent company.

That's what I thought... but I was too busy framing discourse and forgot to look up that point. Thanks for the clarifications!

a reply to: worldstarcountry

OK, then either they are either rejecting the ideals of Western "tolerance" or they are not getting the message, so it come back to what I've said... you can't win the hearts and minds of people if they don't receive the message or reject it.

And since the US government is unwilling to pull support out of the Middle East, and the military are ordered to fight in support... What are our options... Same old same old, feed the meat grinder, or bomb/shell/missile the crap out of their strongholds until they cry uncle?

I mean our strategy of trying to appease the population and fight a limited war has so far resulted in very little success while costing (in lives and resources) way too much.

originally posted by: Byrd

As Worldstarcountry said, you appear to have some misconceptions about the area. The towns were quite cosmopolitan (until various wars and bombs destroyed them) with tvs, good electric service, and so forth. Even now, cell phones are common (as is access to the Internet) -- unless you're in an area overrun by DAESH (think of them as an invading army) where they've destroyed power plants and anything that smacks of Western culture.

And the society was changing (and in some areas it is changing. Saudi Arabia is now permitting women to drive and is opening up other freedoms to women. This is not because someone bombed them or attacked them. It's because of the influence of Western culture (which has some clerics up in arms, but as women driving and working becomes normalized, the clerics lose their power.)

Please see my post to Worldstarcountry.

Pence's view of what should be done won't achieve that. He doesn't know who or where (they're not all hiding in tunnels) ... he "just knows" that if we kill them all that there's no possibility (ever) that someone will decide to take up the cause again and start the recruiting and fighting all over again. Or that some of the non-DAESH groups will step into the power vacuum.

Simplistic answers ("kill them" - as Pence proposes) simply don't work in a complex society and in a situation where there's a lot of background problems (such as other groups that are now fighting DAESH but who have similar ideas about society) that aren't addressed. It's like running up to a huge fire with a bucket of water and saying "I got this!" (if the fire is in a refinery, that bucket of water is going to cause a world of hurt instead of putting out the fire.)

He may not, but one would hope the military and any intelligence agencies would have a good idea of locations.

- LockNLoad- I am personally in favor of pulling all our personnel out and letting the Middle Eastern countries handle their own problems, but it's not my decision to make.

- Byrd- We broadly agree on this.

I am not and have never said that we need to level the whole Middle East but there are locations that we can 'make examples of' -- Terrible wording but couldn't think of another way to put it.

Not all the information I was hoping to find, but it appears (so far) that dropping the MOAB in Afghanistan has had basically the effect (in that region) I was talking about.

Link to story

a reply to: allsee4eye

Islamic State warriors

Hmm... Freudian slip much? Yes, those 'brave warriors' of IS. Seems like you are a Islamic terrorist fanboy.

Because nobody with any sort of sanity would describe those #ing #s as 'warriors'. The term 'warrior' is a positive attribution of humble reverence for the spirit of courage, measured aggression & self-sacrifice for the protection & wellbeing of those who are in need of defence, in the face of an existential threat. So it seems you have it ass-backwards, because the only existential threat is to everyone IS comes into contact with - not to some 'glorious terrorism motherland' which your 'brave IS warriors' are claiming to defend.

I'm just really surprised to see that anyone who uses ATS is actually stupid enough to show their hand in 'covert' support of terrorism.

Taxi for AllSee4Eye..!

* slow clap... *

a reply to: Byrd

I thought the crusades were there to protect the pilgrims and Jerusalem. I say lets place Christians, arabs, jews all at Megiddo at last and get it over with.

a reply to: LockNLoad

I would guess virtually no effect..other than destroyed some CIA tunnels, their resolve is unchanged I would bet.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Byrd

I thought the crusades were there to protect the pilgrims and Jerusalem. I say lets place Christians, arabs, jews all at Megiddo at last and get it over with.

No. Originally the Christians and Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in Jerusalem (with legal protection and rights under Muslim law) until a nutcase became ruler. One area of the ex-Roman empire sent a letter asking for help from Europe (they'd started a brawl and it was getting worse.) Europe ignored it for the most part until a lay cleric decided to get up a Peasant Crusade that was a real disaster... his logic was that the nobles weren't going to do anything and that the Bible talked about how powerful the meek would be.

So he stared the Peasant Crusade, which was a real disaster. Later the Pope called for a Crusade and at a tournament one of the kings fell to his knees and shouted that he was called to liberate Jerusalem. Not to be outdone, the other nobles followed suit.

Most of the Crusades were a disaster - from bad logistics to attacking European towns and looting them, to putting their own people on thrones to internal squabbling to being used as pawns for the Doges of Venice. After awhile when the Outremer kingdoms were falling, they decided to Crusade closer to home and began attacking Jews and fellow Christians (Albegensians.) It was 500 years of drama, ala "Game of Thrones" when you look deeply into the history.

And the battle of Megiddo was actually fought by Ramesses II, wayyyyyy before the Crusades.

Fascinating stuff.

a reply to: allsee4eye

Why don't we just send over Mike Pence to sort out this ISIS mob?

Since he seems to be so hellbent on there destruction, and thinks its so easy to accomplish, might be a better idea to deploy him over seas rather than our husbands, wife's and children.

He can even take Trump for some handers in case he can quite manage the job himself.

a reply to: LockNLoad

a reply to: Byrd

Thanks for that history. History can be tedious trying to unravel it. You know what I find interesting, we keep doing the same war over and over in the ME for a thousand years.

a reply to: LockNLoad
We have to understand the real objectives though to see why our forces are currently in Syria and Iraq. I don't really need to explain Iraq I think, its been covered extensively for 14 years now. Syria had two objectives, split off the northern part into an independent state that will host military facilities for NATO capabilities for future campaigns, and the energy corridor from SA to Turkey and then Europe. The energy corridor is pretty much a distant dream now. But the independent state has become a success.

Rojava already using existing air fields for coalition members, of which 27 of 28 NATO members are a part of, as logistical support and to provide reinforcements with weapons and deployments. The only thing left is the fight for Raqqa, which I have suspected for awhile may fall under a partition similar to Cold War Berlin or modern day Jerusalem/AL-Quds .

The fanaticism and radical Islamic groups are simply a means to an end to the larger powers, and their history of action between the larger powers has pretty much demonstrated as much.