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that's one hefty ruse what could be more high tech than a flying disc from another world?
originally posted by: skunkape23
It could have been a ruse to divert Soviet spies.
They were developing some high tech at the time.
Throw out the red herring.
Most on the base such as Jesse Marcel had never seen the type of radar reflector used in the project mogul balloon trains which were many times larger than ordinary weather balloons and had more targets and equipment than any balloons they were familiar with. So yes they were familiar with small balloons, but not the huge balloon trains with the new style targets so they didn't recognize the new targets with the exception of Warrant Officer Newton who did recognize the target so it's inaccurate to say US Military couldn't have identified it because Newton did, but he might have been the only one on the base who was familiar with it.
originally posted by: schuyler
Claiming this was a balloon is like claiming this was swamp gas. To believe it was a balloon you have to believe that the US Military couldn't have identified it. The fact is, during that time, the military used balloons every single day for meteorology on airfields. The men there new what balloons were. They knew what balsa wood was. They knew what balloons were made of.
While many UFO proponents claim the wreckage shown in General Ramey’s office was just a weather balloon switched for the “real debris,” Moore pointed out that the radar targets used by NYU were unlike anything flown in New Mexico before and that “they were not available in Fort Worth to be substituted for the debris in General Ramey’s office.” Warrant Officer Newton was able to recognize the debris in General Ramey’s office because he happened to have used an early version of the same targets while serving as a weatherman in Okinawa....
What is the bottom line on the Roswell Incident, NYU, and Project Mogul? In Moore’s words, “When the wind information is coupled with the similarities in the debris described by the eyewitnesses—the balsa sticks, the ‘tinfoil,’ the tape with pastel, pinkish-purple flowers, the smoky gray balloon rubber with a burnt odor, the eyelets, the tough paper, the four-inch-diameter aluminum pieces and the black box—to the materials used in our balloon flight trains, it appears to me that it would be difficult to exclude NYU Flight 4 as a likely source of the debris that W. W. Brazel found on the Foster ranch in 1947.”
Of course websites that want you to think roswell wasn't a balloon train aren't going to publicize documents saying it was a balloon like that.
originally posted by: MrParanoid
a reply to: shawmanfromny
That's an interesting document. I've never seen it or recall it being referenced before.
As noted above "Warrant Officer Newton was able to recognize the debris in General Ramey’s office because he happened to have used an early version of the same targets" but maybe no other person on the base was familiar with this new type of target so that's probably why they couldn't confirm it was a radar reflector...it was a type most people on the base hadn't seen before. That's also why claims they should have been able to recognize it but didn't are bogus...Newton did recognize it but apparently nobody else on the base was familiar with it because they were never used there before.
It's also interesting that the teletype confirms that the disc part (at least) was an unknown entity. It "resembled" a radar reflector, but apparently wasn't actually one. Plus, the FBI hadn't (and wouldn't) actually see the artifact and was basing its information on a telephone call.
What about it?
originally posted by: Wrapscalllionn
a reply to: Arbitrageur
But what about the memo in that picture of Ramey and Marcel that the air force says we can't read any words on?
Abstract—Previous analyses of a photograph showing a document held by General Ramey from the Roswell UFO case reportedly revealed content that supported a crashed extraterrestrial craft scenario. Other investigators of this document suggested, however, that it was ambiguous stimuli being interpreted by pro-Roswell investigators in accordance with their expectations. To assess the possible extent of bias in these interpretations, we had three randomly assigned groups of participants attempt to decipher the document under different suggestion conditions: one condition in which we told participants (N = 59) they were looking at a document pertaining to the famous Roswell UFO case, a second condition in which we told participants (N = 58) that they were looking at a document pertaining to secret testing of the atomic bomb, and a final condition in which participants (N = 59) were told nothing about the possible content of the document. Many participants indeed claimed to be able to read the document, although their subsequent solutions appeared to follow directly from the experimental suggestions. Moreover, the number of words deciphered was related to participants’ ages, tolerance of ambiguity, and relative exposure to the UFO field and especially the Roswell case. However, a few words in the same locations in the document were consistently perceived across the three suggestion conditions and these matched the words identified in previous investigations. We conclude therefore that future research of Ramey memo might be potentially informative if certain methodological criteria are established. Such protocols are outlined.
originally posted by: IsaacKoi
Other UFO researchers have suggested it may simply be the wire service article which prompted the relevant photographer (J Bond Johnson) to be sent to the base. J Bond Johnson had said in one article written in 1998 (entitled [url=http://www.abduct.com/features/f25.php]“that:
“I was given the wire service "flash" announcement of this rapidly developing story by my city editor and I headed for the air base.
When the General entered the room I handed him the "flash" announcement printed from the news wires. He read it with interest.
I then took a couple of shots him, still wearing his hat in his office, examining the debris with the "flash" announcement held in his hand”.
Still other researchers think that the text is, and is likely to remain, illegible and is akin to a Rorschach test.
originally posted by: MrParanoid
Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc until such time as he was able to contact the sheriff’s office[...]
Who but a complete idiot would say that he found a debris field of small fragments of "indestructible" material? Marcel was a complete idiot to say that, and anybody who can't recognize that must be as much of an idiot as he was.
originally posted by: Battlestation
No offense but this sort of portrays the people involved as pretty ignorant especially brazel and marcel. Which means the 509th was pretty inept I suppose Newton should have been the chief intelligence officer.
So what did he have, a "disk"? No, he had a small fragment, which is what Marcel also found, a debris field of fragments.
"I don't remember just exactly what day it was but it was just before the Fourth of July and Mac Brazel came by our house and he had a small fragment of this material he showed us. He wanted us to go down and look at what he had found. Back then, it was just after the war and you didn't have tires and you didn't have very good vehicles or gasoline and there was no roads out there. We didn't try to go.
"We told him it was possibly a UFO. Back then, people were seeing a lot of things and reporting them. There were a lot of things up in the air. We called them flying saucers back then. We heard there was possibly rewards out for a UFO if anybody found one, so he went to Roswell and reported it.
The reason her dad didn't buy that was he had found a couple of weather observation balloons and what he found this time wasn't anything like those, and he was right, it wasn't. There was way more debris for one thing, and rawin targets had never been used in the area so that was completely new to him, and he wondered can he really collect enough money to buy two cars for turning in this junk? What rancher scratching out a living wouldn't be motivated by the possibility of collecting enough money to buy two cars for turning in some junk they found? But to collect the reward he had to claim it was remnants of a flying disk, so, that's what he did. That doesn't sound dumb to me.
Brazel's daughter, Betty, said that: "The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst."
originally posted by: grayfox87
Maybe it was plain old incompetence or maybe there wasn't yet a concrete protocol for dealing with UFOs. Perhaps a "wiser" superior officer got wind of the official release and made them change their story. I can also see the advantages of letting other countries believe our military obtained an alien craft and is now in possession of advanced tech. Although in that case I'm not sure why they'd recant it.
In all likelihood the commanding officer of the 509th, Colonel William "Butch" Blanchard, who authorized the release of the "disc crash" story by July 8th did not initially realize the implications of the event.
When his intelligence officer Major Jesse Marcel told him they had found the scattered debris of a flying disc, Blanchard probably first thought of a balloon crash or some such explainable event. The Arnold story was only eight days old and still being talked about.
On the evening of July 2nd, local retailer Dan Wilmot even had a saucer sighting. In 1947, however, flying discs or saucers had not yet assumed the image of extraterrestrial visitors that they have taken on today. Almost everyone then took it for granted that flying saucers were research balloons or military experiments of some sort. Colonel Blanchard probably innocently thought their recovered disc would be just one more story added to the many already being reported in the news media.
If the debris did come from something terrestrial, but secret, it would make sense that General Roger M. Ramey, commander of the 8th, would have then retracted Blanchard's disc story with a weather balloon explanation. It would make all the more sense if it was not just a low-level research experiment as Blanchard probably assumed, but a highly classified project, or a nuclear accident, or perhaps even something of Soviet origin.
This would conceal the indication of any such event and thus prevent public embarrassment at a time of mounting Cold War tensions. It would also conveniently and completely defuse the situation—which it immediately did.
Source : Link
originally posted by: schuyler
originally posted by: Drunkenparrot
I have seen the project mogul logs, they were definitely launching the radiosonde balloon trains in the months prior to Mack Brazeal's discovery.
originally posted by: schuyler
The Wiki article assumes Roswell was a balloon. The article states: "This article needs additional citations for verification." and uses only sources that agree with it. In other words, it is hardly definitive. If you look in the "talk" portion of the article you will find a great deal of controversy as various authors keep changing the article to their own point of view. Just one exchange out of many:
I'm afraid it was YOU who took a short NPOV article, decided to make it very pro-Mogul POV for the Roswell Incident by cherrypicking a few quotes and leaving everything contradictory out. All I did was put it back into context, e.g., pointing out that a few carefully picked quotes in isolation don't tell the full story.
In other words, use Wiki with the utmost care.
Great! Why not post them