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Mandela Effect - A Civil Conversation Between Skeptics And Effected

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posted on May, 10 2017 @ 03:15 PM
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originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
What interesting tidbit have you learnt from your Mandela research?



Well this thread is the result of much of my research into memory:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There's a few other threads that detail research done. ..It may not be where you're headed though.

I have a feeling you're asking what I've learned so you can glean if I've done my homework - not because you're interested in what I've learned.

Therefore I'm not going to put effort into typing it out (sorry if I misunderstand your intent). Check out the threads I've made, and my posts therein, and that'll be your answer.


Edit to add: I do like a lot of your posts though - the humor comes through.


edit on 10-5-2017 by Pearj because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 10 2017 @ 03:36 PM
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OccamsRazor04 - where did you go?

I'm relying on you to bump this thread.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: Pearj

I appreciate it and I thank you in kind for the response

now let's get to the subject matter at hand...the civil conversation.

When I initially saw this OP I thought about hitting each numbered point you made but I suddenly turned a few degrees. I wanted to try something else. I wanted to play a bit with my mind and challenge myself. So see what you think.

I had a theory that unfortunately could potentially describe either the existence or lack of existence of ME. Which frankly makes me REALLY excited because it opens conversation up a lot more.

My warning is that to play along with this possibility, you have to temporarily accept a brief explanation of psychology. I only say that because it is the support and foundation of the whole idea I am thinking about and temporarily accepting the structure makes it so I don't have to keep saying "if we accept this as true."

The other reason I say this is for outside members who want to further this discussion…if you DO NOT believe in the collective unconscious, that is quite fine, but do us a favor and ignore this post. I am not interested in “well the CU doesn’t exist so this whole post is pointless.

So let’s play a bit with the unconscious.

As an analytically trained therapist, I follow the depth psychology of Jung and his theories. One of the more mind blowing theories is of the collective unconscious which is dually and separately explained like this.

1. The collective unconscious is the innate and born pool of knowledge, wisdom, and depth. By accepting this, you find awe-inspiring possibilities. First, on the more tangible plane of existence, we have a relative explanation for why something like arachnophobia exists. As our ancient ancestors learned to fear certain species of spider, so too are we born to fear. Now obviously, many people are not arachnophobic and thus that individual, while still sharing the wisdom and knowledge of a dangerous spider, has either not connected with the fear, or conquered the fear.

Second, and more interesting, is the depth-based ethereal plane of existence. This theory concerns the spiritual (see: not religious or based on a deity) sharing we all have. This says that you, I, and everyone else that has or will exist shares the same starting pool of cosmic knowledge. We all have the ability to play the same archetypes and psychic energies. In this case, psychic means the more cognitive and psychological basis as opposed to mystical. What’s amazing is that if we accept the collective unconscious, this does not mean that there is no room for individuality on the existential plane. In fact, it means the opposite. Through nature, nurture, pain, pleasure, etc, we all use those collective and cosmic energies in our own way. Some people advance and are in touch with some energies and others advance and are in touch with different energies. In fact I see that as a glorious and beautiful thing because instead of anyone “rising above others” or being awoke in “better” ways, we are instead awoke in different aspects. Essentially it becomes equality through inequality.

2. The collective unconscious is the evolving and shared pool of experience. THIS is where the relation to ME comes tumbling in. The collective as shared experience does not mean that if you are in Australia and see a ghost, I too see a ghost because we are all linked. Instead, it’s more a concept of like a universal cloud-based drive where we all upload our deeper experiences and can unwittingly or unknowingly download the deeper experiences of others. Because it is indeed unconscious, we don’t take an active role in the process. It just IS.
Now….the last time I will repeat so that I am not annoying. Pretending for a moment you accept the above theory, here is what I come up with. And it is a bit mind bending to me but I LOVE mind-bending.

I don’t profess to be a physicist, spiritualist or physical theorist so I won’t pretend that this makes sense from any calculation. This is merely an idea that struck me while thinking about a response.

Unconscious collective, the second theory of the pool of shared experience, could potentially explain ME in this manner. If we all have our individual and depth-based experiences (data) uploading all the time, what is to say that some quantum, or alien, or natural and unknown phenomenon did not indeed alter the so called timeline. But instead of necessarily altering a timeline, instead it altered our knowledge of the timeline. So in a way it could have been an alteration of either the shared timeline or our understanding and shared knowledge of the timeline.

This is really wild to me because then, if you look back at explanation 1, it’s possible that those who WERE connected already to the appropriate timeline were advanced in that way, and the effected are catching up or noticing. On the other hand, it could also be that the effected are advanced in a realm that noticed the differences. For example the Bernstein Bears could have been said alteration of either the knowledge of, or the direct timeline. In which case the effected are either just now realizing it or the effected have noticed it while others did not.

Now…the reason I caution that I am not a physical theorist is this. I don’t know if this really qualifies as a paradox but for the lack of better word, there is a paradox here.

The theory of the collective unconscious could simultaneously or separately DISPROVE ME! (I need a drink)

Think about this then. If the collective knowledge (theory 2) is true, then the effected could by all right be a collective misreading or mistake in a piece of universal knowledge. So in this alternate explanation, the effected could have easily thought that the Bears were spelled the wrong way due to a universal mistake (maybe a better example if Darth Vader’s quote) and the so-called upload of the experience was a blip that spread like wild fire in an exponential fashion. Said shared experience (data) may have been sent up to the pool incorrectly after several misremembering and THAT explains the mistaken identities.

So again…none of the above is by any means an accurate means of perfectly explaining towards or away from the concept of ME. Instead, I decided to play with a possibility given that the theory of collective unconscious is accepted as true for our discussion.

Thanks…looking forward to response…my brain has both fizzled and lit up at the same time!



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 04:22 PM
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a reply to: Pearj

A few points i have:



Why would such seemingly insignificant things like a book with a different spelled name or a movie with a character wihout braces indicate dimensional shifting? There are numerous possible explanations including editing/publishing sources wanting different spelling, misprints, multiple takes of a scene with slight variations, and of course, memory issues.

I can think of plenty of instances like this, like my sister remembering my 15th birthday cake being cookie dough, my mom too, but my dad and i remember distinctly that it was simply chocolate.

I can think of countless instances where the memory of some doesnt match the memory of mine and others. You see it in court all the time, where event details are totally different from multiple witnesses, especially when the issues were quick, traumatic, or menial.

I mean, did people really look at "Bearenstain" and obssessively focus on the spelling until one day it was -stein or whatever?

Doubtful.


The most compelling dimensional shift story ive heard was on another forum about a guy that lived through a nuclear war in 1994.

The weirdest part was the date he gave for when it started and the p.m. of Russia. The p.m. was different than ours, and the date was the same date that Finland launched a research ICBM, and Russia almost nuked the U.S. because it looked like a trident missile heading for them.

Spooky.
edit on 10-5-2017 by CreationBro because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 04:32 PM
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originally posted by: Pearj
a reply to: Perfectenemy

That's one of my biggest questions - why do the un-Effected agonize over the topic? I've never seen anything like that.


First, I assure you I'm not being paid and whilst I have experienced most of the Mandela Effects. I probably fall into the category of un-Effected as I do agonise over the topic.

I have atheistic motives. I see huge similarities between religion and the idea of ME's.

There will eventually be Mandela Effect churches and an extremist Mandela Effect believer will try to correct a "mistake" by killing some 70's celeb we all thought was dead but wasn't. A belief system based on the idea that dimensions can change around us is dangerous and leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

It won't end well, and all because of a silly and demonstrably wrong belief that falls apart under any real scrutiny.

That's why I agonise over it.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

I think he was talking about OccamsRazor. He seems to be invested in it so much when he wasn't "effected" or experienced it.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 04:53 PM
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originally posted by: Brian4real

originally posted by: SaturnFX
A lot to respond to without going into pages that will remain unread.

So, one thing that jumped out was Admiral Byrd. I have found his (alleged) accounts fascinating..one of the many things that brought me to ATS and absolutely know it was in the south pole (antarctica). even checked google maps for the things discussed (bad resolution and such). The rest of the artic stuff..the artic is never just a ocean..there is a giant ice sheet there that expands and contracts throughout the year..that is why there is no ice breaking routes through there..chipping away a thousand miles of ice as it freezes behind you. nonsense. we get stuck today skimming the south pole in expeditions

South America: I used to date a girl who lived in Brazil (Florida here) and her timezone is 1 hour ahead. you would get that only if she was more east than I was. if the "mandela" map was accurate, she would be roughly on the same region, therefore same time.


Did you figure in the fact that there is no daylight savings time in Brazil?

Yeah, that was odd I found. I figured it was a global thing



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 04:58 PM
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a reply to: KyoZero

Siddhartha Gautama described the duality as "two sides of the same coin" which I thought was very easy to understand.

I do (timidly) subscribe to a Universal Consciousness. In fact, in my personal "thought experiments" it's where I've determined instinct to come from - which at a acute physical level is a mystery. Instinct looks to much like programming to me and it would need a place to be drawn from.

As a scientific-faith-based person (I'm gonna catch flack for that) - it's how I resolve the concept of Heaven.

Odd that you and I arrived at the same possibility for the same mystery (though you lay it out differently). I've never considered the ME relation to UC the way you've laid out - but I see it's possible relation now. Interesting.

If I understand you correctly; we may not be traversing different universes - rather one group had a blip in the stream and the physical effect is the Effect - a kind of GIGO affect.

There is an actual theory saying consciousness may be laid across the fabric of space as a single dimensional layer we aren't able to see. For me, it's very difficult to picture these dimensions - but they are none the less there.

I'm going to get a little far out on you..

I'm an 'explorer' by nature; always attempting to expand. Some say the Pineal gland may hold the key to breaking through the dimensional barrier offering a way to experience or know what's past our own existence. To that end we (in our home) intentionally lead a fluoride-free life.

But that may not be enough.. A tool known to the ancients and resurfacing recently is DMT (I hope I don't get in trouble for saying that - I'm not advocating). This tool excites the gland and opens the 'third eye' enabling a brief stay on the other side. It's not even remotely in the same category as "other tools". This 'place' is very similar to what we've described, a dimension beyond our normal reach and appears to contain living beings able to communicate.

Tiny dots that can expand into something resembling a person - in a plane that is hard to describe. These beings may be ourselves (past or present) as pure consciousness.. They seem very comfortable there; at peace, and able to be communicated with.

The fabric they live in is interesting to say the least. You definitely are able to see the geometry of the universe - it's astounding and perfect.

I've always been kept in the waiting room (except once that was too brief) - but it may happen for me someday. I have a lot of anger due to a series of events in my past which may be why I'm kept out. I'm working hard on getting rid of that.

Often I'm given frequencies that seem like they should be in tune but aren't. Have you heard two strings that should be in tune but are slightly off? It sounds like a wave - that's what this is like only the frequency noise is some how electronic sounding for lack of a better term. It's as though I'm being given a clue as to what's wrong with humanity today - or what's wrong with my self.

When the day comes (when I'm 'let out' of the waiting room). I intend to ask the beings what the ME is. Either way, all report the experience as enlightening and life changing - and it is.

It may also be the key to a level of awareness for humanity that is unparalleled, and may advance us beyond our wildest dreams.

Sorry for the rant, but when I say I'm an explorer, I mean it. I need to know.

Mods please don't fry me.. Give me a warning instead (please) - I'm not 100% on the T&C (what I can say or cannot say) and I'm wanting to be respectful of it (only wanting to relate in most nondescript way I can), and gladly won't speak of it again if what I said went to far.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: CreationBro
a reply to: Pearj

A few points i have:



Why would such seemingly insignificant things like a book with a different spelled name or a movie with a character wihout braces indicate dimensional shifting? There are numerous possible explanations including editing/publishing sources wanting different spelling, misprints, multiple takes of a scene with slight variations, and of course, memory issues.

I can think of plenty of instances like this, like my sister remembering my 15th birthday cake being cookie dough, my mom too, but my dad and i remember distinctly that it was simply chocolate.

I can think of countless instances where the memory of some doesnt match the memory of mine and others. You see it in court all the time, where event details are totally different from multiple witnesses, especially when the issues were quick, traumatic, or menial.



That's a valid question.

For me, I've never obsessed over the Berenstein books. The memory isn't strong enough to call knowledge for me at least (though stein looks more correct to me).

For me it's South America and the North Pole (Arctic). I'm a map guy, and yes I know the globe distorts shapes and all the other reasons it can't be true. It just doesn't change how I feel. I know it's different now, the globe on my desk changed! It's right above my monitor (on a shelf) so it's right in my line of sight for 9 hours a day.

I think a lot of Effected don't get all hard-core about stuff they only slightly remember - or about stuff that's to easy to dismiss for themselves internally.

But that's me - I don't know about other folks. Trust that for me it's not insignificant things.. not "excuse me while I kiss this guy" (misheard lyric) kind of stuff.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar

First, I assure you I'm not being paid and whilst I have experienced most of the Mandela Effects. I probably fall into the category of un-Effected as I do agonise over the topic.

I have atheistic motives. I see huge similarities between religion and the idea of ME's.

There will eventually be Mandela Effect churches and an extremist Mandela Effect believer will try to correct a "mistake" by killing some 70's celeb we all thought was dead but wasn't. A belief system based on the idea that dimensions can change around us is dangerous and leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

It won't end well, and all because of a silly and demonstrably wrong belief that falls apart under any real scrutiny.

That's why I agonise over it.



Can you understand why it looks odd though?

To your point..

I've never seen or thought of ME stuff as related to religion. In fact I see it as far from religion. When I asked at my church (member for 17 years, been through discipleship etc) the pastor remembered Lion and the Lamb but had no explanation for why it wasn't in the Bible any more. I follow my faith based on faith (non-visual stimuli, a "matter of the heart"). I see the ME as a tangible thing occurring.

Most people I know don't talk about the ME in religious terms. Neither do I. We don't blindly follow, we're drawing off what we know.

Why does it seem religious to you? Does it seem as though we "blindly follow"?



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 05:58 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04
Trying to prove people wrong will not work. Just as trying to prove it won't work. Your memory is either up to par or isn't. And that phrase could go for either side. ME people might have great memory, and vice versa. Just depends If the theory is correct. Bashing people for something they believe makes me think you just want a fight on anything.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 06:16 PM
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originally posted by: Crumbles
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
Trying to prove people wrong will not work. Just as trying to prove it won't work. Your memory is either up to par or isn't. And that phrase could go for either side. ME people might have great memory, and vice versa. Just depends If the theory is correct. Bashing people for something they believe makes me think you just want a fight on anything.

Star.


I am beyond words right now (a little emotional).. Effected or not - where were all you level-headed people 6 months ago (jokes).

I am just astounded - and grateful. Thank you.

My love for ATS might just be returning...



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 06:41 PM
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originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Keep working on your argument.
Hope it will get better at convincing people it's faulty memories.

His argument is sound, you need to work on yours.

After all, the vast majority of people don't believe in ME. Even I remember Jiffy peanut butter, but i don't for one minute think it more likely that the universe somehow changed/flipped than my memory is faulty or influenced.

Really, think about it. Do you REALLY think it more likely some universe changing happened or people simply mis-remember things?



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 06:43 PM
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a reply to: nightbringr

I never said I am a believer in M.E. I was pointing out the minor flaw in his argument about the Australians knowing if Australia has been moved.


edit on 5/10/2017 by Deaf Alien because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 07:28 PM
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originally posted by: Pearj
Sorry it took me a bit to get back to you.

I understand your position on faulty memory.

I wanted to tell you you're not alone - there are several people I can think of that have been directly Effected yet their spouse contradicts them (or won't touch the topic). I'm probably one of the lucky ones.

There may come a day when she's Effected on something, though you may not share the same knowledge on the same subject, at least you'll be able to remark together on the topic in general.

Your story was pretty interesting though. Can I ask why - if you know you remember Miranda's name (and even remember why you remember it the way you do, plus having seen it most days on FB) - do you land on the side of faulty memory for that instance?



That's the thing, all other evidence anyone has offered for the effect I have to go with the principle of Occam's razor; that it is in fact just faulty memory. Let's face it, saying you've somehow traded places with yourself in another dimension with only slight differences from your own... that's a bit of a far-fetched theory and very hard to swallow.

For example, I'll use what is probably one of the most popular evidences of the Mandela effect, which is the Berenstein/Berenstain issue.

It's almost always those two spellings that are used, where 'stain' is correct and 'stein' is what everyone (mis)remembers. What I and everyone I grew up with remembers is "Bernstein". The first time I heard about the Mandela effect was in a thread here on ATS (of course) and that was the only time I ever saw someone mention that particular spelling that we all remember. Ever since then it's always been Berenstein or Berenstain. The trouble is, I'm from a small town in North Carolina, and I can't say anybody around here is that skilled in the field of linguistics. So, a simple mispronunciation that all our parents and teachers always told us is forever etched in our brains as how it should be spelled. Another thing people say around here (not everyone, but a lot of people) is MAC Donald's instead of McDonalds. I've even seen people try to use that as evidence of the Mandela effect, but I would have to go with no on that one as well.

But this instance with this girls name is much different. It's something, like I said before, I have seen on an almost daily basis for the past several years and have a very vivid memory of misspelling her name and being corrected back when I was still in high school. Now all of the sudden it seems her name is spelled slightly different and it is just driving me nuts, and I hate to think that my memory has gone faulty literally overnight about her name.



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 09:23 PM
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a reply to: Pearj

Glad to help



posted on May, 10 2017 @ 11:49 PM
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I wish we named it something else- this state of unease with official reality- because calling it the Mandela Effect is limiting.

Maybe Parallel Universe Dissonance would be more descriptive and allow more measured discussion. Instead, we break into camps based on which events we think may be different and expend too much time on 'proving' it.

I think it's clear we will not develop much further in understanding unless we find a way to discuss the phenomenon together. What makes it more challenging is posting in anonymous forum- people may forget their manners.

I can do my part and share my experience with this oddness and theories about it.

My first event was in the early 1990s. I was out with my brother and boyfriend (who I dated for 4 years at this point). A woman approached me, said my name happily and hugged me fiercely. She proceeded to update me on the latest events since high school.

She greeted my brother and boyfriend as well- my boyfriend knew her. After a few minutes, we said our goodbyes.

I had never seen her in my life before. My brother and I were confused, we wondered who she was. My boyfriend was shocked- he claimed we were BEST friends all during high school. I only had two friends in high school. Not only did I not know her, but I had no memory of ever seeing her before. Neither did my brother.

She was beautiful, really friendly and it seemed clear she was exactly the kind of person I would have been friends with. My boyfriend freaked out- he said she was at my house like every day and we went on the senior trip together. I didn't go on the trip. My parent's also did not know of her.

Yet...when i got home, there she was in my yearbook, in pictures with me, and a long handwritten farewell inside the cover.

This is the kind of effect I am referring to- like in this thread where we discuss knowing for sure something is terribly wrong as opposed to possibly misremembering.

Other 'events' for me: Tank man being shot and murdered after trying to block the tanks sent to stop the protestors in Tianamen Square (I do not know the proper spelling) in China. China had been loosening up and with the Internet starting to spread, they were losing control, especially with university students as they had the most access to the net.

There were still foreign media there, and they captured this moment live and we witnessed it. We watched him die, and the result was a loud outcry from around the world. Upping US trade and awarding them 'most favored nation' status was a slap to the face of freedom.

The only names/ phrases that cause me disquiet are the Berenstein Bears and the imagery of the lion and the lamb in the Bible.

Geography and anatomy are as I remember, except Ebola killed you quickly, spread in the air (the incident with the monkeys in McLean, VA) as well as blood and there was no cure.

I can't prove any of this, and as a rational, functioning and somewhat educated adult I must be open to the idea that all of these events/ issues have alternate explanations.

I did, for a time, major in Physics. The explanation that a small number of us have somehow jumped to the next universe over is comforting to me- as I do not have to crazy for reality as I experience it to be true. The people who don't have these events do not need to be of ill intent, just uneffected. But comfort is not necessarily what I want.

Understanding this odd dissonance would be amazing. I don't know if it's possible for us to know- maybe only to document. My only fear is that some hubristic as@@@@es took their adventures in physics experiments too far, and this has caused a tear in our observable reality.

Tears often grow into holes, until all is ruined. This is what concerns me about this. I do hesitate to discuss this in real life as it is kind of embarrassing. I can still be happy and not know for sure and exploring possibilities here could help.



posted on May, 11 2017 @ 12:18 AM
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a reply to: mclarenmp4

This is explained by whats called Argumentum ad populum



posted on May, 11 2017 @ 12:36 AM
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originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: mclarenmp4

This is explained by whats called Argumentum ad populum


In other words ignore them because of the fallacy.
Let's ignore the UFO abductees' experiencrs as well.



posted on May, 11 2017 @ 12:41 AM
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a reply to: Deaf Alien

Ignore them because they're on par with flat earthers



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