Far-left Progressivism

originally posted by: DBCowboy
And your idea of freedom is granting government authority over everyone.

How did you come to that conclusion from "All I want government to do is break up the cartels and monopolies by not having laws giving them advantages. You idea of "freedom" is let the CEOs create cartels and monopolies and eff the worker."

There's no point in discussing this any further. You are RIGHT. I am wrong. I see that now.

btw, the government DOES have authority over everyone by the Constitution.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Actually, the Constitution grants the individual rights over the government.

a reply to: DBCowboy

You are right about "rights" too. Wow, you're amazing.

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

Barring redefining words, what is reversed?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You mean like the government telling you what recreational drugs you can and cannot take?
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Why do conservatives want to tell women how to control their reproductive rights?

These things come down to religion, a person can be conservative without being religious. Obama did make good progress on MJ legalization but you have to remember he did smoke in his youth. In my experience the left are just as much against drug legalization as religious conservatives, because the socialist in them sees it as a degradation of society and harmful to the youth.

We are a Republic. North Korea is a dictatorship. That is an apples to oranges comparison. PLUS it is currently the Republican President who seems more infatuated with himself than actually implementing real policy change.

First of all I don't recall doing any comparison, I was pointing out how the extreme form of socialism, which is communism, almost always leads to authoritarian dictatorships. Also I'm not a fan of Trump and don't like him as a person, but I would argue that Trump has actually got quite a bit done in a small frame of time compared to my other presidents, especially considering he is still surrounded by people who oppose him. I hate to reference Infowars but they released a good video on this earlier:

a reply to: dfnj2015

Thanks. Marxism, Leninism and Maoism are pretty much dead in the world. Modern Marxists reject the transitional state.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: dfnj2015

Thanks. Marxism, Leninism and Maoism are pretty much dead in the world. Modern Marxists reject the transitional state.

I don't think communism is dead. I think we may see again in this country in our lifetimes. Marx said laissez faire capitialism is always followed by communism because unfettered greed would result in a government's currency collapse. Once the currency collapses, people in bread lines will DEMAND more government not less. See you in the breadlines comrades!

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
These things come down to religion, a person can be conservative without being religious. Obama did make good progress on MJ legalization but you have to remember he did smoke in his youth. In my experience the left are just as much against drug legalization as religious conservatives, because the socialist in them sees it as a degradation of society and harmful to the youth.

In your experience? How about actual data? Like the actual fact that marijuana legalization is being led by the liberal left and conservatives are largely lagging behind in the movement? ALL states that have legalized it are liberal leaning and the movement started in California.

Support for legalizing marijuana is at it's highest with U.S. voters across the political spectrum—whether Democrats, Republicans or independents, according to a new poll by the General Social Survey. Although a higher percentage of Democratic voters agreed marijuana should be legal in the U.S. compared to Republican voters, overall, nearly 60 percent of Americans thought “the use of marijuana should be legal.” in 2017.

You are just making # up about Socialism now. or at least Socialists in this country.

First of all I don't recall doing any comparison, I was pointing out how the extreme form of socialism, which is communism, almost always leads to authoritarian dictatorships.

Whether you recall making the comparison or not is irrelevant because you certainly did by bringing NK up. Either that or you made a TERRIBLE slippery slope fallacy.

Also I'm not a fan of Trump and don't like him as a person, but I would argue that Trump has actually got quite a bit done in a small frame of time compared to my other presidents, especially considering he is still surrounded by people who oppose him.

Like what? List accomplishments. Not things he's attempted and either failed or been blocked on.

I hate to reference Infowars but they released a good video on this earlier:

Don't worry. I'm not going to watch anything that website puts out. Alex Jones is a proven liar and has now admitted to his entire personality being an act. That website has zero credibility in my eyes. Whatever you are trying to sell me here (yes sell is the right word because all Infowars does is sell you #) I'm not buying. Get a better source.

a reply to: dfnj2015

You simply are not paying attention to history. The Soviets Union after WWII went from nothing to competing with the United States in an insanely short amount of time. One Tsar Bomba will ruin you day. I'm not advocating communism. But you would have to be complete moron not to acknowledge and respect what Russia did after WWII.

I'm not saying communism cannot work or must always work badly, with enough effort it clearly can work but I would say it's quite rare, and even when it does work, I still wouldn't want to live in a place like China or Russia... surely you must be aware of some the insanely authoritarian laws which are practiced in both these nations? I'm a bit of a fan of Putin I must admit because he has the balls to challenge lies from the western world, but I'm not going to lie to myself about the type of person he is and forget all the stuff I don't like about him.

Also I would say when it comes to economic growth that China is the exception to the rule of communism producing economic stagnation. Although I'm not really sure I would call China a true communist nation, but I'll still accept your point. However I will point out that places like Hong Kong, which consistently ranks as the world's most competitive and freest economic entity, has a very simple tax system with low corporate rates, and also has one of the highest per capita incomes in the world. How do you think the U.S. become so powerful and prosperous in the first place, it certainly wasn't on the back of communism, I'll tell you that much.

originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: dfnj2015

It is funny the far-left always label me "Right" and the far-Right think I'm "Left", that is how I know I'm pretty much somewhere in the Center. Lol. The futurist in me always believe that in the future we will most likely get rid of "Money" all together. When technology are advanced enough that we can use nanobots and robots to break down and build anything we desire, perhaps our pursuit of happiness and freedom will not involve "money". But until then Capitalism is a stop gap, I just wish "TPTB", "Corporations" and "Special interests" did not have so much sway on our politicians and government.

I believe in technology. I read a really interesting book that has haunted me though. It was called Power and Technology by David Kipnis. It argued the promise of technology is not what is actually delivered. It's a very haunting argument.

Nanotechnology is really cool. I read at some point a virus might be created that could program your DNA age sequence in every cell in your body. So after 4 months when all your cells divide you will just grow back to being 20 years old again. That's pretty cool stuff.

I think 3D printers will also have a huge impact on changing society.

I wish this country wasn't so anti-government. The German's have done an amazing job with their Wendelstein 7-X. They will probably completely fossil fuel free in the near future. That's what the world needs. Good old fashion socialism solving the worlds problems.

The profit motive just doesn't always work. People prefer not to work at all by creating a cartel or monopoly. CEOs are just people after all.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

As I read thru your thread, it seems that the hatred for others comes from the right wing spectrum. Good job in fanning the flames of partisanship. Americas is divided and will fail economically and socially if it continues; I'll tell you that much!

Alex Jones....really? Not the best way to support an argument or establish credibility.

a reply to: dfnj2015

"I wish this country wasn't so anti-government"

Here is where you and I disagree. I believe the more control we hand over to the government the more problems we will have (the less freedom we will have also). Government will usually turn authoritarian the more power we give to them and the process usually accelerate when they feel that they are threatened . I say less government and more self reliance. Technology should be use to free us and make us more self sufficient, not to enslave us (especially free us from an overbearing government).

a reply to: ErrorErrorError

The very definition of Socialism is that it is a Political Theory....so not exactly sure how you arrive at you description of it as a financial systems as it is not.

so·cial·ism [ˈsōSHəˌlizəm] NOUN a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

It is essentially a transitional state between Capitalism and Communism...a period to blur the lines before class warfare and total control by the state.

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError
No American can claim to be anti globalist because you all enjoy the fruits of globalisation one way or another

Globalization and Globalism are two different things. I suspect you also think the "Global Village" is the same thing as well.

If you care to grasp the distinction between them see here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

In your experience? How about actual data? Like the actual fact that marijuana legalization is being led by the liberal left and conservatives are largely lagging behind in the movement?

What do you want, a survey of politicians for and against legalization? I predict you would be correct and the left would be more in favor, but I think you'd also be surprised about how many so called liberals would be against it. Maybe my perspective on this issue is a bit skewed because there's no strong right wing party where I live so most of the opinions I hear against legalization come from people who are leftist in one way other another... you know like those ladies on morning talk shows who are clearly liberal but use a bunch of dumb arguments against anyone who tries to present them with facts and logic, acting like they're a crazy person for wanting drugs to be so easily accessible. Once again this is why I'm a libertarian, we are quite consistent on the drug issue, and the top proponents of legalization tend to be right leaning libertarians like Ron Paul.

Like what? List accomplishments.

Well for a start the economy hasn't collapsed yet as I thought it might, he's essentially revitalized the coal industry and put many people back to work, he has encouraged several large manufacturers to come back the U.S. and reduced outsourcing levels, he has worked against globalist crap like the TPP, he has implemented stricter rules against lobbying, he is taking actions to reduce the size of government, not to mention his crapping on the MSM and exposing them for what they are while they flailed around like fish out of water, and the list goes on if you care to take a glance, although I doubt you will.

Get a better source.

Well that was the wrong video anyway, I was thinking about this video where they actually look at official positions held in the Trump administration and how many of them are against Trump. I actually created a thread about this not too long ago which has solid sources: Never Trump Movement Leader Now Trump's Director For Media Relations. However what I didn't realize is that the problem is much more widespread than I assumed at the time of writing that thread, many of the positions are filled with Never Trump people, people left over from the Obama admin, and people who just don't like Trump.

originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: dfnj2015

"I wish this country wasn't so anti-government"

Here is where you and I disagree. I believe the more control we hand over to the government the more problems we will have (the less freedom we will have also). Government will usually turn authoritarian the more power we give to them and the process usually accelerate when they feel that they are threatened . I say less government and more self reliance. Technology should be use to free us and make us more self sufficient, not to enslave us (especially free us from an overbearing government).

I disagree with you way of thinking. The problem is not having too much government. The problem is having too much corrupt government.

The average worker making the median worker's wage cannot compete with laissez faire capitalist forces passing legislation creating cartels and monopolies. What we have in this country is COMPLETE control of the government by corporations through lobbyists. I think this quote summarizes it best.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Benito Mussolini

RE: I say less government and more self reliance.

JUST NOT POSSIBLE. We do not have free markets in this country. The corporations are price fixing wages and the cost of goods and services. ALL PRICES ARE FIXED by deep data mining.

It doesn't matter what you pay in taxes. What does matter is the purchasing power of your take home pay. And right now the cartels and monopolies are forcing us all to shop at the company store. The worker making the median wage is a poverty wage. Freedom is great if you are CEO allowed to put everyone into economic slavery.

After the great depression I think this speech summarizes the left very well:

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government."

Against economic tyranny such as this! Only by the power of government will the worker making the median wage be able to address grievances of government controlled by the corporations. People on the left don't care which political ideology you use. I'm so sick of being called a liberal and communist. The purchasing power of your take home pay is everything. All I want to do is get government to enforce free markets by getting rid of laws that give corporations cartels and monopoly privileges at the expense of the average worker. This is why I'm a leftist.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

Barring redefining words, what is reversed?

To be fair, I think that single grey bubble deserves to be on the left side as well.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
What do you want, a survey of politicians for and against legalization? I predict you would be correct and the left would be more in favor, but I think you'd also be surprised about how many so called liberals would be against it.

Looks like it would be around 35% of liberals. Which is 100% - 65%. Basic math there. It isn't surprising at all.

Just because you know liberals who are anti-pot doesn't mean that is a staple belief of liberals. Stop with the some to all fallacies please.

Well for a start the economy hasn't collapsed yet as I thought it might, he's essentially revitalized the coal industry and put many people back to work,

No he hasn't.

not to mention his crapping on the MSM and exposing them for what they are while they flailed around like fish out of water,

Attacking the press like he is doing is an assault on the 1st Amendment's protections of free press you know? Interesting to see a declared Libertarian celebrating an attack on the free press.

and the list goes on if you care to take a glance, although I doubt you will.

I glanced at your list. It isn't what I asked for. Achievements that weren't blocked by the courts. Furthermore you told me that he got a lot done in comparison to other Presidents yet give me this list minus any context. It looks like you didn't really have a answer to this question and just quickly googled that list without taking the time to construct an argument around it.

Well that was the wrong video anyway, I was thinking about this video where they actually look at official positions held in the Trump administration and how many of them are against Trump. I actually created a thread about this not too long ago which has solid sources: Never Trump Movement Leader Now Trump's Director For Media Relations. However what I didn't realize is that the problem is much more widespread and than many of the positions are filled with Never Trump people and people who don't like trump.

Lol. That is just a cheap video to blame Obama for Trump's failures. You guys need to stop trying to blame Obama for everything Trump fails at.

I believe the one aspect that nobody participating in this thread is mentioning is this: we absolutely NEED extremists on both far ends of the political spectrum. They forever remind the rest of us- the majority- that to allow total control by EITHER political extreme is to doom ourselves as a society. Any time either of the most extreme ends comes into political power the end result is totalitarianism. Extremists remind us that somehow we must meet in the middle and make compromises lest we fall into tyranny.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Attacking the press like he is doing is an assault on the 1st Amendment's protections of free press you know? Interesting to see a declared Libertarian celebrating an attack on the free press.

It's called criticism. It's not like he's censoring them or throwing molotovs throught their windows. Laughable point.