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Far-left Progressivism

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posted on May, 9 2017 @ 05:34 AM
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The left loves to brand anyone they disagree with as far-right, yet they never question their own beliefs and whether they lean into a political extreme, what I will refer to as the far-left. Before I go any further I should make it clear that I lean to the right; I'm for small decentralized government, I'm for personal freedom and liberty without excessive government interference in our lives, I'm for free market capitalism because I believe it achieves the highest average standard of living and the fastest rate of technological progress. However I would not really refer to myself as a conservative because I place logic and liberty above emotions, so I tend to refer to myself as a libertarian. I'm pro-choice assuming the baby is young enough and doesn't have brain activity happening, I'm a futurist and believe man will eventually merge with machines, I don't give a crap what people want to do in the privacy of their own homes, I don't give a crap if gay people want to get married, I have no desire to inhibit the freedom and liberty of other human beings.

However I am still against ideas like globalism, which is an extension of socialist ideologies taken to the extreme at the expense of separate nations and their cultures, akin to the way socialism tears down individualism to promote a more communal view of the world. There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve ones culture and have pride in ones heritage, nationalism is fine when not taken to extremes. The antithesis to collectivism is individualism and decentralization, it's why the founding fathers created the United States in a way which decentralized power among the states and they opposed a purely federalist approach. Socialism, and it's more extreme form communism, implicitly demands the centralization of power and authority so that the collective can be properly managed. A government simply cannot control many aspects of the economy without centralizing production. This can be readily seen in proposals such as the Venus Project, which propose highly centralized manufacturers controlled by the government to create everything we need.

Being progressive should not automatically mean you're a globalist who promotes a one world government, that is in fact far-left extremism as far as I'm concerned. It's taking a political ideology to the extreme, and even more insidious is that they push this under the guise of progressivism and open mindedness, claiming their opponents to be "old fashioned" and closed minded. It's an almost perfect example of how the path to hell is paved with good intentions. I am not conservative on issues of immigration because I'm an old man who doesn't want to live in a multicultural society, being against illegal immigration and in favor of strong borders is a logical stance for anyone to hold if they care about the safety and well being of their nation and it doesn't automatically make one "far right", it's not like we're saying stop anyone from coming in. However to say "just get rid of all borders and let anyone in" is in fact an extreme position that appeals to our ego and desire to feel more righteous than thou, when in fact it's nothing but stupidity.

Leftists like to claim their side is the side of freedom and liberty, and that everything on the right is about oppression and fascism. They talk about a utopia where we have achieved perfect equality, there are no societal classes or borders to separate us from each other, the government strictly manages all resources to ensure the health of the planet, etc. When that type of progressive socialism is taken to the extreme you get communism, and the fact is no communist nations exists, nor has one ever existed, that has achieved a classless society with a high level of equality. Only about half a dozen communist nations exist on Earth, and if we look at communist nations like North Korea it's very apparent they live under a dictatorship with a government that tries to control all aspects of their lives. These governments are usually a hierarchical pyramid of power with a few people at the top wielding immense power, rather than a democratic system which gives power to the people. Ironically, nations like NK are some of the of the most nationalistic nations on Earth.

They worship their leaders in communist nations, in NK they have pictures of their all glorious supreme leader everywhere. These nations have military displays of power to bolster national pride, the leaders are very heavy handed and crack down hard on any dissent what so ever, etc, etc. Communism is the ultimate form of collectivism from my perspective. Everything is controlled and managed by the state, all the buildings look the same, there's no variation or human spirit in those types of systems. Capitalism emphasizes individualism and competition allows variation to exist and allows us to truly express ourself and take control of our own path, rather than have our path chosen for us. Governments which utilize extreme socialist policies will not only control all aspects of the economy, they will control all aspects of peoples lives and may even choose their career for them based on the needs of the community and the aptitudes of the person, regardless of what the person wants, because that's what's best for society, it's for the "greater good".

The government may even decide what you can and cannot eat to keep people healthy, hell we already see that happening now. In fact there's a thread right now about sugar taxes aimed at reducing obesity, and of course they are always implemented by liberal politicians. One should ask themselves, if the left is so in favor of freedom and liberty and letting people do what they want, why are they so attracted to nanny state policies? You think it's progressive to tax unhealthy living choices, using taxes as a form of social engineering to force people into living the way you want is perfectly ok? This is why I'm a libertarian, and why most libertarians lean to the right. We don't pretend to stand for freedom and liberty, then cave into emotions the moment someone says "think about the children", we uphold the principles the way they deserve to be upheld, we aren't willing to trade liberty for safety at a moments notice and then act like we have the high moral ground, calling anyone who disagrees as "backwards". Progress doesn't always come by moving only one direction.
edit on 9/5/2017 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 9 2017 @ 05:40 AM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Exactly.

The left are impossible to get along with. And if you present an idea that they disagree with they dont reflect upon it at all, they just instinctivly rip into those proposing the idea that they disagree with.

I had a lefty friend once.

Once.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 05:42 AM
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a reply to: FuggleHop

Again lashing out on us lefties, you just wait, the left shall rule the world!




posted on May, 9 2017 @ 05:47 AM
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originally posted by: solve
a reply to: FuggleHop

Again lashing out on us lefties, you just wait, the left shall rule the world!

I assume you're joking, but I'm not lashing out by any means, I've been wanting to write a thread like this for quite a long time and a recent debate I had in another thread inspired the creation of this thread.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 05:51 AM
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originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
The left loves to brand anyone they disagree with as far-right, yet they never question their own beliefs and whether they lean into a political extreme, what I will refer to as the far-left.

Funny.
Here you do the exact same with other people. Because to me, this sounds like everyone to the left of your perceived ideal is far-left.
Anyway.


Before I go any further I should make it clear that I lean to the right; I'm for small decentralized government,
left in my country

I'm for personal freedom and liberty without excessive government interference in our lives
definitely left in my country

, I'm for free market capitalism because I believe it achieves the highest average standard of living and the fastest rate of technological progress. (etc)
Yeah, that is a mixture of left/right in my view.

In my social environment, the devision is between "progressive" (left) and "conservative" (right).
Wanting to change the government is a progressive step, as it does not mean to conserve the status quo.
Freedom and liberty? Well, that would be a change, too. Progressive, therefore left.
Capitalism.. Well, that is tricky. But usually it is seen as "running by the old way", conservative.
But for advancement, that is definitely conservative.

See, the world has many ways.. Not everything you or I assume to be "left" or "right" is the same elsewhere.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 05:52 AM
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a reply to: solve

No, left handed people are okay (if somewhat awkward). But people who have left political leanings tend to be ALOT of trouble. Unfortunately.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:00 AM
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How can an American be anti "globuuuulist" at all ?!
Your currency is used over all in the world.
You have military bases all over the world.
You spy on everyone.
Your presidential​ elections are followed all over the world , because whichever idiot you put in office affects everyone else (hey 1 world government !!)
If America was anti globalist you would be like North Korea.
No American can claim to be anti globalist because you all enjoy the fruits of globalisation one way or another
You can't be pro capitalism​ and be against its core principles of free movement of labour.
edit on 9-5-2017 by ErrorErrorError because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:00 AM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Thank you for taking the time to present a thoughtful and well written look at your views. Well done!



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:04 AM
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a reply to: ManFromEurope


Because to me, this sounds like everyone to the left of your perceived ideal is far-left.

I'm not saying that at all, we need to embrace socialist policies to some extent to have a functioning society.


Capitalism.. Well, that is tricky. But usually it is seen as "running by the old way", conservative.
But for advancement, that is definitely conservative.

I agree capitalism is progressive in some sense and I was going to point that out as another reason why I consider myself progressive. However we typically see socialism as a leftist thing because it's a preference for the community over the individual, whereas capitalism is some what the opposite of that, it takes more of a individualistic dog-eat-dog, so that is mainly why I would say capitalism is a right wing thing.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:06 AM
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a reply to: ErrorErrorError

Well I'm not American but what you say isn't wrong and I do find it very hypocritical, but you have to understand people don't have much control over what the puppet master choose to do.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:09 AM
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originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
that, it takes more of a individualistic dog-eat-dog, so that is mainly why I would say capitalism is a right wing thing.


Capitalism also advocates free movement of labour and "right wing" wants more controlled borders. Contradiction.
Btw, capitalism and socialism are financial systems and hardly political. Most of Europe is capitalist with a mixture of socialism. How would you call that ?



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:12 AM
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originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: ErrorErrorError

Well I'm not American but what you say isn't wrong and I do find it very hypocritical, but you have to understand people don't have much control over what the puppet master choose to do.


I understand that people don't have much choice but I find it laughable that so many whine about "globalism" yet they have so many financial benefits of it .



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:14 AM
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originally posted by: FuggleHop
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Exactly.

The left are impossible to get along with. And if you present an idea that they disagree with they dont reflect upon it at all, they just instinctivly rip into those proposing the idea that they disagree with.

I had a lefty friend once.

Once.



I suppose you are going to claim that the right never does this.

Whenever I mention gun restrictions, this is what I hear from some on the right:

"NO! NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!!"



You've got extremes on both sides who can be narrow-minded a-holes. You've also got reasonable people on both sides who can have decent discussions, although it is very rare that either side will change their mind much as a result of those discussions. That's just the way it goes.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:41 AM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

On what do you base this stark assessment?

What experience or knowledge or resources do you have to back up your "always" and "never" proclamations?



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:43 AM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Couldnt of expressed it better myself. Agree fully.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 06:50 AM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Hi, far Leftist here.



The left loves to brand


Do you have an example of who you think the far Left is and how/who they brand?



I'm for small decentralized government


Me too and ideally, leading to no government at all.

You seem to be putting authority and liberty on a left-right scale but authority and liberty exist in both the Right and the Left. Ideologies exist on an X, Y axis not a Left-Right spectrum.





I'm for personal freedom and liberty without excessive government interference in our lives


Me too.



I'm for free market capitalism


I'm for free market Socialism. Like Capitalism, the state can be involved or not. I go for progressing towards no state involvement as we evolve.


"Market Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are owned either by the state or by the workers in each company (meaning in general that "profits" in each company are distributed between them: profit sharing) and the production is not centrally planned but mediated through the market . Its central idea is that the market is not a mechanism exclusive to capitalism and that it is fully compatible with collective worker ownership over the means of production — which is one of the fundamental principles of socialism.

Proponents of market socialism argue that it combines the advantages of a market economy with those of socialist economics. The theory is fundamentally contradictory to orthodox Marxism.

Proponents of market socialism include economist John Roemer and philosopher David Schweickart, whose version of market socialism is called "Economic Democracy". P2P Foundation




However I am still against ideas like globalism, which is an extension of socialist ideologies taken to the extreme


Globalism is a world market, not erasing borders and it has come about through Capitalism. It's also pretty much inevitable so it's a matter of deciding whether it stays Capitalistic or turns Socialistic. My belief is that in the Capitalist version, it's just running around the world exploiting poverty with cheap or slave labor and reaping massive profits for little effort. Whereas the Socialist version rewards the labor and lifts the workers out of poverty. Either one can be authoritarian or libertarian, it's a matter of what we as global citizens in our own little nations decide.

I have to cut it off there for now.



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 07:05 AM
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a reply to: Kali74

I think you are moderate left actually.

I moved to the other side of that when I saw the far left as being KKK, Hate mongers etc. Where I lived at the time which is STILL D Nashville TN, the leftist D's called me an N lover for speaking nicely of blacks and given them a chance to live as they see fit as long as it doesn't hurt others, unlike what those same name callers where doing. I don't support double standards. I noticed the Christ like Christians were not doing that, they were R's (which i despised R's at the time I do believe due to so many being D around me).

Not to say the crazy right wing nut jobs don't exist, we all know they do. But what is really going on here is we are attaching too much emphasis on the extremes instead of coming together in the middle. We can all agree that people need to have some basic rights. Labor moving from one country to another is fine but we do have to consider that nefarious groups gladly take advantage of the easy ways into a country. I have always had reason to believe the people who lost "their serf's" never gave up getting us back under total control, through hook or crook as we say here...
edit on 9-5-2017 by Justoneman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 07:10 AM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I pretty much stand near where you are in term of Left vs Right and I'm sure many people are also. I consider myself somewhere near the center, if not at times a tiny bit left of center. I am pro freedom, pro guns, pro choice, pro gay, and could care less if they legalize pot. I believe before any laws or deals are made by the government we should ask ourselves, is it giving me more/protect my freedom or is it taking freedom away. I believe that the government should be small inwardly toward their citizen but strong enough externally to deter external influence and bullying. I too feel that some people and some friends who stood a bit left of me now considers me far-right just because I do not agree with all their beliefs. I feel my position did not change much over the years but it seems the left have moved much further left.
edit on 9-5-2017 by joemoe because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 07:20 AM
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They need to update this chart because some things are now reversed.

As for the OP. I feel the same way and agree with almost everything you said.

One simple word can summarize your entire premise.

Partisanship.

And because of partisan, they all ascribe themselves to some sort of groupthink which compells them to defend and disagree whenever they hear the word liberal or left.

I'm a liberal, and far from a conservative, but somehow I'm only arguing against liberals and the left.

I don't feel any type of way when somebody attacks liberals or calls them libtards, because I don't associate myself with any side and I only represent myself. It's easy when you aren't so emotionally invested (which imo is one of the main reasons for the partisan).

I think at the core of most of us, we all pretty much look the same, want the same and feel the same. It's just unfortunate partisan has taken over and ultimately it has led us to where we are.

It's not too late people.

Drop the emotions and start thinking for yourselves.

Stop defending things when your heart tells you it's wrong.

It's OK to be wrong. (Which leads to growth)

It's OK to defend your opposition. (Which leads to fairness)

And it's OK to agree with one another. (Which leads to less partisan)


Isn't that what it's all about?



posted on May, 9 2017 @ 07:20 AM
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a reply to: Kali74

Great post. I am surprised they haven't demonized you yet. I agree with a lot of what you have said. I think the right is so busy labeling people on the left they really have no idea what the left is trying to achieve. They claim we are all want communism. But I have never heard anyone on the left in the United States say they believe state ownership of enterprise is the solution to ALL our problems. I think there are many people on the left who have no problem with free-market capitalism when it "works" according to what is important to people on the left. I don't think we have free-market capitalism in this country. I think our government is run by the lobbyists and people are the right claim government is too BIG when it's actually the lobbyists driving everything.

I think the people on the left are more interested in addressing wealth inequality in this country than they are promoting a particular type of government. If laissez faire capitalism were able to address wealth inequality in this country many on the left would embrace it. The problem is the people are the right are so argumentative and quick to call people on the left "liberals" and "communists" the real issues are never talked about.

If the federal government did not exist at all, the corporations will still continue to drive wealth inequality further into all-time highs. Doing nothing preserves the status quo. Doing anything at all and you get labeled a communist. So NOTHING is going to change for very long time. The lobbyists RULE this country. The problems with our country are not rocket science. The lobbyists force the politicians to pass laws creating cartels and monopolies in exchange for campaign financing. And the smart people are the right know if anyone tries to get rid of the legislative advantaged they are labeled a "liberal communist" by the propaganda machine.

So the workers of this country will continue to suffer and take it up the butt.


edit on 9-5-2017 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



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