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Gay Genes, Religous implications ?

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posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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No, Paul, you could get down on your knees and pray for understanding. There is still hope for you. Being gay is a choice. You are not a victim of life. Poor widdle you, you've CHOSEN to be gay and the rest of the world hates it. Do you honestly believe that the rest of the world is wrong and that you and your lover are right?
I find it hard to believe that you've always been attracted to the same sex. If you have then something has been missing from your life. Be it a father, or something else. I have never talked to one homosexual EVER that explained that they had a healthy stable family with good Christian morals as they grew up. There is always something there that went astray. I don't think that being gay makes anyone a bad person, but it does condemn their soul unless they repent. Our parts don't fit. Every homosexual couple has to emulate heterosexual sex when they have sex. There is no other way to do it. Women take penis shaped things and insert them into their bodies, men insert their penises into orifices as they would a woman. It is not right.




posted on Nov, 5 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by deesw
You are not a victim of life. Poor widdle you, you've CHOSEN to be gay and the rest of the world hates it. Do you honestly believe that the rest of the world is wrong and that you and your lover are right?


I think that is more than a little biased in phrasing.
It's not two people against the rest of the world.
The world doesn't hate homosexuals. Several major religions do, and they do because they take the instruction of stonage shepherds, Jewish rebels against Rome, and 6th Century Arab raiders, etc. on faith.

A large number of people in this world who are not homosexuals still believe that they have no right to cast judgement upon homosexuals. This group consists of athiests, agnostics, and many smaller religions which concern themselves more with service to their concept of God than they do with complex codes of doctrine and religious law. This group is so large that in the United States a major political party has been able to remain viable and control nearly half of the senate even though they have advocated the rights of homosexuals.

It also bears mentioning that a Christian really has no leg to stand on for singling out homosexuals for any shame whatsoever. Homosexuality is no worse than taking the lords name in vain, failing to honor your father and mother, or even eating pork for that matter.
I've got some really disturbing news for you. Every single Christian on this planet is guilty of sodomy. There is not even one Christian anywhere who if he were to stand before God, would not be asked to account for his transgression of God's law against Sodomy. Do you know why? Because the bible tells us two things:
1. That all have sinned. 2. That to offend one commandment is to offend them all.

There is even room to argue that homosexuality is not a sin if you were born homosexual. When did it become wrong for humans to run around naked? When Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why was the law given, according to the bible? "So that sin might become exceedingly sinful". What did Paul teach about dealing with other Christians who had different concepts of right and wrong: why is it OK for some Christians to eat pork, even though Moses clearly forbade it?
If a person honestly does not know that homosexuality is "wrong" (which it isn't but since I used to be a Christian I'm trying to speak your language) then it's not a sin for him.



I find it hard to believe that you've always been attracted to the same sex.


Funny that you ask the gay guy that, because when you point your finger at him you leave 4 pointing back at yourself and every straight person. I remember the exact moment when I first took a real interest in having sex with women. I was 11. It's probably a little later for some people- I grew up fast.
Guess what- it didn't just pop into my head as a matter of instinct. I made a choice to be straight. Between TV, magazines and stuff that my friends had, etc etc, I was introduced to heterosexuality and had to choose to embrace it.
So what if it's a choice: who is to decide who made the right choice- or for that matter if there is any such thing as a wrong choice? A med student gets into school and chooses to be a proctologist or chooses to be an OB/GYN: is their a right or a wrong choice there, or should he pursue the career where he will be happiest and do the most good?

As far as sexual orientation is concerned, I sometimes wonder if I made the right choice- maybe I should have chosen not to be interested in sex at all. Afterall, dating is expensive and has a rather unpredictable return on investment. Women can be really moody and even vicious sometimes: they make me miserable more often than they make me happy. Of course for me, personally, being gay wouldn't help because i don't relate to men any better than I relate to women- but if I did, who is to say that there is such a thing as a wrong choice there? As for me, I'm beginning to realize that I relate very well to my computer- unforunately the disk drive just isn't big enough to accomodate me, so I guess celibacy is the only option. J/K



I have never talked to one homosexual EVER that explained that they had a healthy stable family with good Christian morals as they grew up.


His name is Kenny. He's my ex-fiance's best friend's little brother. There was nothing wrong with his upbringing. He's a skinny, feminine person. Girls were mean to him. The only people he could relate to were a handful of guy friends. What do you know, he fell in love with a man. I grant that it's unnerving, I don't really like being around Kenny, and I don't like the way he flaunts his sexuality anymore than I like straight men who do (and well, the opportunistic side of me likes women who do, but for a different reason- I don't like or respect them- I just find it agreeable.) That being said, i don't hate the guy for being gay. He made the choice that made since to him and I hope that it makes him happy, just as long as it doesn't make him happy within my field of vision.


Our parts don't fit. Every homosexual couple has to emulate heterosexual sex when they have sex. There is no other way to do it. Women take penis shaped things and insert them into their bodies, men insert their penises into orifices as they would a woman. It is not right.


Everyone has a tongue. Everyone has genitals. There's more than one way to skin a cat.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 05:17 AM
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I believe you're either born straight or you're not. But I have a theory about gay bashers who are so adamant about homosexuality being a personal choice. Could it be they fear and despise gays because they themselves are not strong enough to embrace their true nature and the resulting condemnation? Do they figure if they can repress their own homosexual inclinations, then others should also. Is this contempt really misunderstood jealously?

I'm not even considering the religious angle here. Many of these people particularly "holier then thou" Christians, don't accept anyone who doesn't embrace their values. Intolerant, arrogant and judgmental is what they are!

And just look at how many "men of the cloth" sexually abuse children in particular. Had these pedophiles not repressed their sexuality, be it straight or gay, maybe they wouldn't have victimized children? I wonder, could these men believe their sexual acts are less sinful somehow with an innocent child as opposed to a willing lustful partner? Or is it strictly the intimidation factor that compels these sickos?

My own thirteen year old niece was raped and murdered by a minister.

Nevertheless, I don't mean to imply I believe most followers of organized religions are shameful. Quite the contrary. If religion makes you a better person than it's a wonderful thing!



posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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It also bears mentioning that a Christian really has no leg to stand on for singling out homosexuals for any shame whatsoever. Homosexuality is no worse than taking the lords name in vain, failing to honor your father and mother, or even eating pork for that matter


You are absolutely right about one thing, homoness is no worse than those things, but the topic of this thread is homoness, not taking the Lord's name in vain. The Bible does not say that God told us that eating pork is wrong. That is a Jewish custom, not a Christian one. The Apostle Peter was fasting on his roof one day and Jesus passed him and asked him why he wasn't eating. Peter said he had nothing "clean" to eat. Jesus replied " If I made it, it's clean to eat". The Jewish law also said that you can't eat anything with no backbone. That rules out shrimp, crab, snails,lobster, and crawfish. As for the whole tongue and genitals thing, it is still emulating heterosexual sex. No matter how you slice it.
If you wish to be homosexual, it's your choice. I say just don't fool yourself by trying to convince yourself and those around you that it is normal and right, and keep it private. If I don't know about it I can't complain about it.

Make no mistakes about it, I fear no homosexual, and I sure as heck do not fight back any feelings about homosexuality. This is not "gay bashing" this is informing.
As for the finger pointing, yes I admit it ever since puberty I have been attracted to women. It is natural. Show me an animal in the wild that has an attraction to the same sex. It doesn't happen. We are animals as well, it is instinct to be attracted to the opposite sex.

As for your fiance's relative, did he attend Church regularly with his family? I doubt it. There was something missing somewhere. I have three homosexual men at my office that sat down with me and a few others and finally admitted that they all either lacked a father figure, or had an overbearing mother figure. A man is tought how to be a man by his father. If that relationship is torn or disrupted then the boy makes his own mind up on what it means to be a man. Get past the anger and frustration and break things down and homosexuality just doesn't make sense and it is wrong.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 12:44 AM
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OK Deesw - I'd be more than glad to answer any questions you may have, and anyone else's - of course, I cannot speak for all homosexuals because we are not all alike - we're just as diverse as all you 'normal' straight people.

I'm gonna tell you a few things first - so you will have a little understanding before you ask any questions, mmmmmkay? good.

I was raised by my mommy and a daddy - I had an older brother, he was all into sports, cars, music and especially girls. I have a BIG family - Ma's side was Grandma, Pop, 12 Aunts & Uncles, their respective spouses, 42 cousins, God knows how many 'once removed' cousins I have now - I quit keeping count. Pa's side, a little smaller, just Granny and Granddaddy, one Aunt and her hubby, 2 cousins, - We all went to church, together. Southern Baptist is how I was raised. Sang in the choir, was "Joseph" in every Christmas play, participated in all the youth "activities" including canvassing peoples' windshields with those little 'tracts' to tell them how to get into heaven.

I got Saved when I was 12 - by being frightened into it - hearing the preacher spout all the 'hellfire and brimstone' sermons when you're 12 can be a little unnerving, so one day after the last hymn, I went down and got saved - I did everything the preacher told me to - got Baptized at homecoming - got a Bible with my name stamped in gold letters and everything! All this, not because I felt the calling or a longing, but because I was so afraid of the hellfire and brimstone. I always did what I was told, and was there every Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night.




quote: I find it hard to believe that you've always been attracted to the same sex.


Why? - haven't you always been attracted to the same sex? - I have NEVER been attracted to a female, and seriously doubt I ever could be - The thoughts that would go through your head if you were FORCED to have sex with someone of the same gender, are the same thoughts I'd have if I were forced to have sex with someone of the opposite gender. Why is that so hard to believe? - Just because you 'feel' one way about something does not mean everyone else does, or has to. I have no desire on this earth to make you want to change your sexual orientation - just see that other people that have a different one are not as bad as you think they are. There are some people that have mostly homosexual feeling, and then develop mostly heterosexual feeling, and vice versa - and there are people equally attracted to both sexes - there is no "one and only" correct way to be when it comes to sexual orientation. I do know that I'm 100% gay - simply because if you're a guy, attracted to other guys as long as you can remember, and you've never been turned on my a girl, and you're 31 years old, YOU'RE GAY! Simple as that.

I will not say "I was born gay" - Who knows what they're sexually attracted to when they are born? when they're little kids? don't most kids think of the other sex as "icky" until at least puberty kicks in? If not, then why the hell did I get all those damn "Cootie shots" when I was a kid? (maybe that's what 'turned' me gay?, hmmmmm) Nobody can say they were "born" gay, but we can say that our natural, inborn, sexual orientation starts to express itself sometime in puberty.

I don't know how it happens with most folks, but I did know from early on that I was more into being around the guys than the girls, didn't think of it as a 'sexual' thing, more of a 'best friends' kinda thing - even when I saw all the other guys start chasing the girls, going on dates, sneaking off to make out behind the gym - I didn't think about that stuff, I didn't look the girls and think about their shape, or hair, or boobs or butts - I didn't get what my friends were seeing in these girls or why girls all of the sudden were ALL they could talk or think about. I wasn't anticipating a first kiss, I had no interest in making out or getting to any of the bases - it just wasn't on my mind. Then when I was about 16-17-18 - Junior/Senior in High School, I started noticing the shape of the boy's faces, their body frames, the arms and legs, their muscles, the way they moved, afternoon stubble, even the way they smelled after gym - I didn't know what was going on, I just knew I wanted to look at them, sneak a peek when I could - and that FREAKED ME THE HELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!! I knew what I was feeling wasn't "normal" (as in "not what's supposed to happen") I'd try looking at the girls to see if I felt the same way about them - - - NOTHING! - I didn't want to look at the girls, I wanted to watch the boys. I'd NEVER wanted anything to do with a girl, and ever since I started to feel any kind of attraction to other people, it has ALWAYS been another boy.

I didn't know much, but I knew I had to HIDE it! - I knew it was not what was expected, and I really believed that If I told anyone that I'd probably get the living tar beat out of me - I felt like I was doing something that was going to hurt my parents so bad that they'd kick me out of the house - I felt that If I told ANYBODY, that within 5 minutes, EVERYONE would know and I'd be a laughing stock, get teased, harassed verbally and physically and NEVER be included in anything - So I kept it to myself. I never went on a date, never got asked to go on a date. When asked why I didn't have a girlfriend, I'd just say "those hormones haven't kicked in yet" - and I believed it too! I thought If I just wanted it bad enough and waited long enough, that I'd eventually grow out of it and someday be attracted to girls. Knowing full well the whole time that I was attracted to boys but could never let anyone know - besides, it wouldn't have done any good, there were no other "out" guys in my class, or anywhere near my age in my town. And for those older than me that had come out - their lives were a living hell - always teased, always feared, treated like they had the black plaque or something. Most moved away because this is a small-minded, intolerant little town where you have to hunt and drive a pick-up truck and chew tobacco and wear at least 10 confederate flags to even fit in. I thought when I graduated, and moved to college things would change - maybe being around all those college girls would make my hormones "kick in"

During my first year of college I tried my best to find something attractive about the ladies - I'd watch baywatch with my roommates, I'd sit on the porch with my buddies and listen to them talk about the "hotties" that were walking by, and I'd agree, just to fit in, but never felt anything. I'd feel stuff for my roommates and the guys that were "hotties" walking by, but could never act on or say anything about it. It would mean social suicide (and possibly literal suicide) if I were to ever let anyone know.

Every night, for YEARS, I'd pray to God to take it away from me or go on and kill me if he wouldn't - I wished for just one day, hour, minute or even a tiny fraction of a second that I could feel attraction to girls, to know what that felt like - to feel 'normal' if for just a nanosecond - I begged that of God every night for 4 or 5 years - I never slept anymore, I couldn't think, couldn't concentrate - dropped out of college and started working full time. I never came out of my room - My roommates, whom I'd known since kindergarten, knew something was wrong but I had to keep lying and saying I was sick or just tired from work - I moved back home because I just couldn't take anymore pretending that nothing was wrong and thought that I could just put it all behind me by going back to work for my family's business and becoming a hermit. When I was 26 the stress finally got to me and I was hospitalized basically because my intestines had turned to Swiss cheese. My Doctor kept pressuring me to tell him what was causing so much stress but I was still to afraid to admit to anyone (even my doctor) that I was gay because I just knew it meant I'd have to hide for the rest of my life.

After 2 years of on again/off again hospitalization, deep depression, stress reduction therapy, Xanax, Prozac, Paxil, and all the other anti-anxiety drugs - I finally cracked - I told my best friend, and even before I got a reaction from him - I felt this enormous weight being lifted from my shoulders, my stomach quit hurting for the first time in years - It was the closest thing to a religious experience I'd ever had - Then I waited - I was expecting my best friend to get up and show me the door, or punch me in the face, or go get a gun and fire at me - Seriously! that's what I thought he was going to do! But he just looked at me and said "It's OK, I already knew" - He'd known if for years - everyone had! even before I had started to suspect it myself, others had known it - but NOBODY ever asked me if THAT'S what was bothering me - he told me that back in college he and my other roommate had a conversation that went pretty much like "hey, if Paul brings a guy home, you gonna be OK with that? - Yeah, I ain't got no problem with it" - I got kinda mad at first, I wanted to ask WHY they'd never let me know that?!?!?! - but I realized that would have been just as hard for them to come to me about it as it was for me to go to them.


Get past the anger and frustration and break things down and homosexuality just doesn't make sense and it is wrong.


My anger and frustration is no longer because I'm gay, It's from having to listen to people tell me how 'unnatural' I am, how I'm going to hell, simply for being me - How I'm evil and trying to spread it - That simply because I'm gay I’m supposed to be treated like I MUST have aids and that I'm just trying to spread it to everyone. Hearing things like “gay sex creates AIDS out of thin air” and having to hear people say things like "homosexuality just doesn't make sense and it is wrong"

Saying that being gay "doesn't make sense" or is "wrong" is the same thing as telling someone that they can't choose blue as their favorite color. How did you pick your favorite color? Were you equally attracted to every color in the box and forced to choose one? No, you were somehow drawn to one particular color - Where's the science or religion that happened there? Maybe it was nature, maybe it was nurture, maybe God himself started everything, put evolution in motion and just sat back and waited for you to be born, simply to let that color be seen by you so you could have a favorite - Who knows? I don't, nether do you.

If people could be more open and honest about things that really shouldn't matter anyway - and more accepting (or at least tolerant) of things that may not be normal for them, but are normal to other people, we'll all start to get along better -


Poor widdle you, you've CHOSEN to be gay and the rest of the world hates it. Do you honestly believe that the rest of the world is wrong and that you and your lover are right?


I don't think "the rest of the world" is wrong - I don't think I am either - It doesn't have to be one way or the other - it's not just black and white, it's all shades of gray in between and every color you can possibly imagine If you think it's "right" of the "rest of the world" to hate me, then you have some serious, serious issues.

I don't want to change a straight person into a gay person - I know that straight is "normal" for most people - I also know gay is "normal" for me. I have no agenda, no sinister motives, no desire to "recruit" anyone to "my side", there's no voice in my head telling me to do any of the things most people think all the "evil" gays do - I don't want to change anyone else - but I want them to stop trying to change me. I want to be treated just as “normal” as you get to be treated - I know social stigmas can’t be changed overnight in the minds and attitudes of people, but no matter what your personal opinion is, you can’t deny that gays deserve equal treatment under the law – especially in America where we’re ALL supposed to be free and EQUAL.

This is NOT something that I 'chose' to do to myself - If I'd had a choice in the matter, I'd be sexually attracted to females, if for nothing more than to fit in with what you deem "normal" - But it's just not there. I also cannot deny that there IS an attraction to males, and I imagine it's just as strong as the attraction you have to members of the opposite sex.

I guess there is one other option I could have "chosen" - I could find some girl stupid enough to believe I'm straight, 'pretend' to fall in love with her, 'pretend' I want to get married, 'pretend' that it doesn't make me nauseas to make love to her, make her pop out a few babies so I can prove to the world how straight I am "hey, look at me, I made a baby - I'm SOOOOOO straight!" And then go completely insane from the quilt of hiding that all those years - How's that? THAT WOULD BE A BIG LIE - A BIG SERIES OF LIES - LIES UPON LIES UPON LIES!!!!!!!! Is that what I'm 'supposed' to do?

So - Ask questions if you want - I'll be 100% truthful - get personal if you want - I've got nothing to hide anymore, and nothing I've ever done is going to burn your eyes to read about it.

And if you can ask me in a nice tone, and respectfully like you're actually talking to another human being (us gays have feelings too, you know) - I'll reply in kind and you won't see anything else like this next sentence.

If you EVER say "poor widdle you" to me again, I will make it my life's mission to develop the technology to reach into my monitor, throught cyberspace, out of your monitor, and BITCH SLAP you up-side your head for being such a condescending little twerp. Instead of all that homophobia, someone should have taught you some compassion and consideration for others.

[edit on 11/11/05 by paulthefourth]



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 01:55 PM
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I hope I didn't give you the false impression that I was letting you get away with that. I'm back.


Originally posted by deesw
You are absolutely right about one thing, homoness is no worse than those things, but the topic of this thread is homoness, not taking the Lord's name in vain.


I beg to differ. This thread is not about "homoness". It is about what the religious implications would be if "homoness" was discovered to be genetic. This thread therefore is 50% about religion, is it not? You have conceded that homosexuality is no worse than any other sin. From this agreed upon premise, we should be able to deduce that under the Christian doctrine of original sin, the implications are zilch, nada, roughly equivalent to the functional value of the average televangelists' brain-housing unit, or however else you may care to say the word "zero".



The Bible does not say that God told us that eating pork is wrong.
That is a Jewish custom,

A jewish custom which Moses wrote into the Book of Genesis, which is in the bible, which Christians believe to be the infallible word of God, who according to the Bible has no turning, as is celebrated at some length by several popular hymns.

This is very relevant to the religious implications of a possible "gay gene", because if one is not inclined to recognize the utter absurdity of the new testament in relation to the old, he must find a way to reconcile the pork discrepency between the new and old testaments without conceding that God has changed his mind, contradicted himself, or lied- none of which God is supposed to do as far as I can remember from my church days.
You'd have to make one of two cases:
1. That it's an anachronistic health tip which God gave for the preservation of mankind, but became irrelevant when men started practicing better hygiene and food preparation.
2. That like all of the law, the pork rule was given strictly to illustrate man's shortcomings and force us to acknowledge our need for atonement, and that we aren't particularly meant to follow it. You'll probably take exception to my phrasing of that, but let's face it, Christians do use Jesus as a license to sin and deep down they know it. Been there, done that, seen everyone else do it too.

Either way you go, you have to turn around and apply one of those two arguments to homosexuality as well, or else you've got a clearcut case of God contradicting himself.

Final answer: There are no religious implications to homosexuality even as a choice, but if it is inborn then even less so.



As for the whole tongue and genitals thing, it is still emulating heterosexual sex. No matter how you slice it.

How so? The mouth is not a gender specific organ. There is nothing inherently homosexual, heterosexual, or sexual at all for that matter about the mouth. Oral sex doesn't lean one way or the other.

If you equate the mouth to female genitals then fine, homosexual men can only emulate straight sex, but then what about Lesbian oral sex??? What is pseudo-straight about using an analog to female genitals on actual female genitals? So you've got to argue that in that case you're penetrating the tongue and using it as a phallus.
Uhoh, look at that, the mouth is pinch hitting both for both pieces of equipment- that doesn't sound straight to me. That sounds bisexual.

Go buy a porn movie, you'll like it. If you think that sex is strictly limited to "insert Tab A into Slot A" you're in for a big surprise. There are at least 7 human apendages (12 if you count right and left handed fingers as different) and 3 orifices in common use, and sometimes either one or both of those two categories pretty much gets left out of the act. You can go aphendage to apentage for example (and then you don't even need a partner, as any single guy can probably tell you).


If you wish to be homosexual, it's your choice. I say just don't fool yourself by trying to convince yourself and those around you that it is normal and right, and keep it private. If I don't know about it I can't complain about it. Make no mistakes about it, I fear no homosexual


1. I appreciate that you're trying to be inclusive, but I'm not homosexual, so you can just say "they".

2. Of course you do, on some level. Why are two women kissing more alluring to most ment than just one woman by herself? Because men somehow have this ridiculous hope of being included. And why are two gay men kissing or otherwise being gay together seem so much more intimidating to a straight guy than just one gay guy walking around being quiet? Because men somehow ahve this ridiculous fear of being included. It's not really conscious, but on a basic level you personalize the things that you see and that's you either enjoy or fear experiencing those things vicariously. That's why you'd probably get sick to your stomach if you saw a human being get run through a meat grinder; sometimes if you look at a particularly painful injury on someone else, you may even get a twitch in the corresponding part of your body.

You, like most people, personalize objective data too much, harbor too many irrational fears, and consequently have the urge to project your values on the outside world because the outside world is having an effect on you; but that's not yours to do, your only right is to fix the problem with yourself and find a way to stop letting it get to you.


Show me an animal in the wild that has an attraction to the same sex. It doesn't happen. We are animals as well, it is instinct to be attracted to the opposite sex.


That's called evolution (in case you're not familiar with the term, that's what explains the development of mankind for people who don't believe in the Invisible Man). Mankind is well past the struggle to survive as a species, and even past the point where children are an asset. Mankind has developed a strong sense of self- dog's don't sing, dog's don't scratch art into the dirt, dogs don't kill their children for the sake of convenience (i suppose that at least is one aspect in which I consider dogs superior). All of this is because dogs are still driven by the instinct inherent to the race and by the concerns and customs of the pack, whereas humans are far more individualized and make more of their own judgements to get the most out of their own lives. Sex, for human beings, is no longer just procreation- or an impulsive pleasure; it is an emotional need. In the sense, sex is isn't fulfilling with just anyone; you've got to have a person who suits you. If the people who usually suit you are packing the same hardware that you are- oh well, that's no barrier to the newest purpose which evolution has brought to human sexuality.



As for your fiance's relative, did he attend Church regularly with his family?

That's a good point, if he'd gone to church he might have just been a closet homosexual instead of an open one. There's nothing like having your family take you to cult meetins at a young age where a stranger who you are expected to treat with the utmost respect incessantly threatens you with eternal damnation and torture at the hands of your loving father-figure of a God unless you seek tirelessly for the meaning of life in a 2000 year old book about revolutionary politics in the Roman province of Judea. I'd think that having your father metaphorically castrated by a religion which teaches people to be deeply ashamed of sex would be an excellent way to get yourself molded into a homosexual.


I have three homosexual men at my office that sat down with me and a few others and finally admitted that they all either lacked a father figure, or had an overbearing mother figure.


Well, if you've seen one, you've seen 'em all, right? You've got a nice little anecdote going there, but I've got one to the contrary which demonstrates that these anecdotes can not yield us anything solid. If a system of inquiry yields contradictory facts, the system is flawed. Your system for figuring out what makes a homosexual is flawed.

[edit on 13-11-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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What if someone has both male and female genetals? Does the Bible say its a choice? Why do lesbians look and sound like men and men who are really camp sound like a woman? Do they have a choice. I do not believe God is going to hate you for what you are but for what you believe is rightous. He will be more disappointed for a straight man to go Gay for the sake of gaining extra pleasure where a woman may not give.

But I think unlike Jesus todays religious people who behave like the Jewish people who stoned the woman and Jesus wrote their sins on the ground, I think Jesus could forgive a man or woman for being the way there are. its a shame man can not do the same. But unlike the curruption of the angels and daughters of men that in Genesis 6 he will not say a Homosexuals can not get into heaven and are not part of his plan.

Instead of treating Gays as outcastes understand that their sins are just the same as a Lie or lustful thought, and people should not be superior complexed and feel a right to bash them. Its like saying become gay if you are straight or do not sin if you are a Christian. Your sins are Genetic because of the orginal sin so why can not Gays have a Gay gene, oh its a choice as people put it? Yes Gay people still have a choice in the act it self as much as you have as being celebate to being straight.

All this does not mean though a Gay person is not loved by God, people should be more tollerant because they behave as if they can jugde as if they were as sinless as God. Only in their sexuality they can find sinlessness what about the rest of their charater, no one passes the test there.

Im a Christian but I believe we are all sinners and God can forgive through Christ, learn to love not to hate.


[edit on 13-11-2005 by The time lord]



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 04:09 PM
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The human body is geared for reproduction.
Our psychology is geared for reproduction.
Homosexuality is a 'problem' for evolution.
How can you pass down genes and traits if you
are homosexual and you don't reproduce?
It's a mystery to evolution.
We have not discovered any 'set' answers.

Interesting reading for anyone interested -
Evolutionary Psychology - the new science of the mind.
ISBN - 0-205-37071-3



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
The human body is geared for reproduction.
Our psychology is geared for reproduction.


The human body has plenty of evolutionary vestiges. Our body hair isn't long enough or thick enough to be of warming value anylonger, but we still get goose bumps.
Human beings have taken many strides away from the basic existance of organisms as complex chemical machines whose primary purpose is to proliferate themselves throughout their environment. We've developed uncommon intelligence and with that has come more highly developed emotions. Human beings are evolving not only in physique now but in consciousness. We spend far less time satisifying primal needs such as eating and reproduction and spend considerably more time on experiential pursuits- acquiring luxuries, asking questions, seeking answers, seeing things, interacting, etc etc etc.

Christianity is an excellent example of this. In evolutionary terms, religion is a horrible idea. It all revolves around what happens when you die, while evolution is all about life. Relgious values restrict survival-driven activities and reporduction- the human race could expand far faster if so many of us were not monogamists. The value of religion (which certainly has nothing to do with it being rooted in truth, in my opinion) is in the way it can enhance the thinking and experiences of certain people (it's not bad for everyone- people like me weren't mean for it, but it does enhance some people's lives).

Homosexuals are a byproduct of evolution in consciousness, and perhaps even one-off from a higher state of evolution. Consider bi-sexuals. They can reproduce- in fact they can reproduce more rapidly because by its very nature it weakens the insistence on monogamy. In a natural environment they would probably function as more cohesive groups because people will generally do more for somebody they want to get naked with than for someone they don't, so it could be speculated that bisexual males might make better teams than straight males on average because sexual competition/insecurity is probably less of an issue.
I'm not trying to glorify it really; frankly I'm pretty dang happy with the fact that my sexual orientation allows me to appreciate Pamela Anderson and completely ignore Tommy Lee. I'm just saying that if you want to make an evolution argument you run into certain problems unless you resolve to blindly adhere to empty dogma, building an argument around a foregone conclusion rather than building a conclusion on sound rational consideration.




Homosexuality is a 'problem' for evolution.

Religion is too, and although religion is not genetic, we do of course get it in many cases from our parents. Then of course there are assorted sexual shortcomings which may be genetic in origin which for some reason seem to perpetuate themselves.


How can you pass down genes and traits if you
are homosexual and you don't reproduce?
It's a mystery to evolution.
We have not discovered any 'set' answers.

Recessive traits. My younger brother is blond- our parents are both brunettes. Both of my parents are fairly skinny, but my grandpa on my mom's side was heavyset, and so am I.
So, if this is strictly genetic, it's not a problem because a person can carry the genes for a trait and not possess that trait, but if he reproduces with someone who is in the same situation, and they each contribute the relevant genes, then the child definately will have the trait.

On top of that, you've got to consider the possibility that it's only partially genetic. A male who has feminine features and who does not produce so much testosterone because of some genetic quirk might theoretically be able to go either way, and the way he is treated and the kinds of people he meets may be second half of the equation: it could be simply a matter of which gender recieves him better at that point.

[edit on 13-11-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by mattison0922
I don't think they've got anything against homosexuals personally, (WBC excluded) but they believe that the act of homosexuality is sinful....


Homosexuals are sort of the people that practice homosexuality. So you have nothing against homosexuals, but just.. who they are.

Well, why not be just as outspoken about liars? Like, lying politicians? Or those who worship graven images? Or those who do not honor their mother and father? Those are all against the 10 commandments aren't they? Pretty big rules to be broken there, and not just things that are passingly referenced in the Old Testament. So why not as outspoken against these things?

Or what about people that are of other faiths than yourself; that believe differently? That's worthy of going to Hell for, right? Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans. Why not as outspoken against them? Not against them, but against how they live and worship, which is sinful?

Personally, I think there are too many "sinners" for you Christians to worry about. Maybe you should just get off everybody's back.


Edit: I was reading off the first page, when this thread is apparently much longer.. Oopsies.


[edit on 13-11-2005 by bsbray11]



posted on Dec, 11 2005 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by mattison0922
I don't think they've got anything against homosexuals personally, (WBC excluded) but they believe that the act of homosexuality is sinful....


Homosexuals are sort of the people that practice homosexuality. So you have nothing against homosexuals, but just.. who they are.

Well, why not be just as outspoken about liars? Like, lying politicians? Or those who worship graven images? Or those who do not honor their mother and father? Those are all against the 10 commandments aren't they? Pretty big rules to be broken there, and not just things that are passingly referenced in the Old Testament. So why not as outspoken against these things?

Or what about people that are of other faiths than yourself; that believe differently? That's worthy of going to Hell for, right? Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans. Why not as outspoken against them? Not against them, but against how they live and worship, which is sinful?

Personally, I think there are too many "sinners" for you Christians to worry about. Maybe you should just get off everybody's back.


Edit: I was reading off the first page, when this thread is apparently much longer.. Oopsies.


[edit on 13-11-2005 by bsbray11]


You need to chill out. Why are you completely quoting me out of context nearly 10 months after I posted something?

Firstly, I didn't say I have a problem with homosexuals, or who they are as people. Perhaps you should actually comprehend what someone is saying before you make yourself look like a fool. I am not outspoken about homosexuality. If you'll note: my contribution to this thread amounted to stating my professional opinion on the ludricrous concept of a 'gay gene,' and trying to answer a question about Christian beliefs.

If you'd bother'd to read even half a sentence further, you'd see where I'd written

... Although I am not religious and probably not the best qualified here to answer this question.


Is this how you handle everything... completely flying off the handle and embarking on a irrelevant rant that appears to be completey removed reality?

Lighten up....


[edit on 11-12-2005 by mattison0922]



posted on Dec, 11 2005 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by mattison0922
You need to chill out. … Is this how you handle everything... completely flying off the handle and embarking on a irrelevant rant that appears to be completey removed reality?

Lighten up....


I actually was pretty 'chilled out'. Just didn't come across that way, apparently.


Why are you completely quoting me out of context nearly 10 months after I posted something?


I quoted about half your whole post, only excluding the part about you saying you were not religious, etc., but from your other posts I picked up the impression that you were a little homophobic/whatever nonetheless. Apologies for making assumptions based upon that.


But, as to why the reply came so late (heh),


Edit: I was reading off the first page, when this thread is apparently much longer.. Oopsies.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
but from your other posts I picked up the impression that you were a little homophobic/whatever nonetheless. Apologies for making assumptions based upon that.

Apology accepted, though now you've opened another can of worms. Which posts of mine specifically leave you with the impression that I am 'homophobic?' Thanks in advance for the clarification.



posted on Jan, 9 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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Show me an animal in the wild that has an attraction to the same sex. It doesn't happen. We are animals as well, it is instinct to be attracted to the opposite sex.



As a matter of fact the rate of homosexuality in animals is aobout the same percentage as in man.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

so sorry to shoot a big hole in your ideas of choise..

My question is.... as far as people who are so viamently against homosexuality. What business is it of yours who somone else is screwing?



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 08:23 AM
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My question is.... as far as people who are so viamently against homosexuality. What business is it of yours who somone else is screwing?

It is none of my business until some homo makes it by whining his widdle head off at wanting the same rights as normal people and wanting to change marriage laws to suit their perversions. I've said it before I can't get upset about it if I don't know about it.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by paulthefourth
If you think it's "right" of the "rest of the world" to hate me, then you have some serious, serious issues.


Great post, Paul! I think you hit the nail on the head right there. deesw does not speak for the rest of the world and he does not speak for me, regardless of his fantasies to the contrary. Not even close!

Thought some of you might enjoy this:

10 Reasons Gay Marriage is Wrong



1. Being gay is not natural. And as you know Americans have always rejected unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
...
5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed. The sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
...
7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
...
10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 04:07 PM
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Deesw... I have a question. If I send you a few dollars, will you go buy a keyboard with the letter "L" on it?

And I have another question- is your membername actually TeesL by any chance? The whole "widdle" thing opens up a lot of tough questions for me.



Originally posted by deesw
at wanting the same rights as normal people


Well, you know, that really is an incredible affront to all decency. The same rights as normal people? They can't really mean that. I mean come on, everyone knows that you can't express yourself in public here in America- especially not by a display of affection! Next you'll tell me that they want equal access to veterans benefits if they've earned them- these people must be stopped!

If we don't immediately ostricize these animals, or better yet, just plain kill them all, they may even want the right to offer a safe home to an orphan (afterall, a "gay home" lacks one gender figure, but is still on an equal or better footing than a single-parent home).


and wanting to change marriage laws to suit their perversions.

I knew this would happen! Dangit, I warned you all! The minute we started letting interracial couples marry, it was just a matter of time till inter-gender and inter-species couples start demanding the same thing! Come on bro, are you listening to yourself? You can't prove that it's a perversion in any objective manner, you can't justify the present laws, and therefore you have no more footing than opponents of miscegenation.

The fact is that marriage is simply an implied set of contracts that people of the same sex can legally engage in piecemeal. It is legal for a homosexual couple to assign eachother power of attorney in the event that one becomes disabled. It is legal for a homosexual couple to make eachother sole heirs. It is legal to intermix your finances. It is legal to share ownership of property. It is legal for people other than natural parents to become legal guardians (step parents especially) etc etc etc. In short, gay marriage is perfectly legal in practice, it's just not legal in the letter of the law. This illustrates that the law is not intended to serve a protective function, but simply bans the name of something against which many people are prejudiced.

The upshot of this is that a homosexual couple would have to spend a considerable sum of money on a paralegal to enter into a network of marital contracts, cannot be common-law spouses, cannot file taxes together (which in some cases has caused veterans to be be denied thousands of dollars in benefits to which they were entitled. Story)

Now I can agree with you that those benefits afforded by the government to qualified individuals for the expressed purpose of procuring benefits which can only be yeilded by the formation of traditional nuclear families (most obviously greater population growth) should be restricted to couples which can and do produce children of their own, which of course will usually be heterosexual couples (keep in mind that you can't give those benefits to infertile heterosexuals unless you give them to lesbians who opt for artificial methods). I do not believe that government subsidies are a right, I don't even believe that they are generally a good idea unless there is some clear object of investment upon which a return is likely. I also believe that these handouts are all too often used as an excuse to interfere with the liberties of the American people, and that is precisely what is happening on the subject of gay marriage.

Buying people's liberty from them at rock bottom prices- not just for Democrats anymore.




I've said it before I can't get upset about it if I don't know about it.


Suppose that I was very upset by the fact that you are alive. Could I use the above statement from you to demand that you never come on ATS again? I thought not. Thanks for playing. Obviously in that situation my sorry, hateful butt would just have to grow up and learn to respect other human beings.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by deesw
It is none of my business until some homo


slur



makes it by whining his widdle head off


cry baby imagery



at wanting the same rights as normal people


dehumanization



and wanting to change marriage laws to suit their perversions.


and demonization



I've said it before I can't get upset about it if I don't know about it.


are you implying that these people don't deserve rights because they don't fit into your religious worldview?



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 10:31 AM
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No madness, I am implying that they don't deserve rights because they can't get married. You are asking to change all the laws of family and marriage so some homosexuals can get someone's pinsion or other monies? That is freakin rediculous. If they want to be gay, fine, but why make it public and whine and cry to get benefits and monies? It sounds to me like the homosexual community wants the rest of the world to accept them as right so they can accept themselves.



I knew this would happen! Dangit, I warned you all! The minute we started letting interracial couples marry, it was just a matter of time till inter-gender and inter-species couples start demanding the same thing!


The Bible says nowhere that inter racial marriage is wrong. Why do you think there are men and women on this planet? If we had been intended to be homosexual there would be only men or women. If the family laws are broken, then what next? I read a news article the other day about a woman that wants to marry her dog. With the traditional family destroyed according to the law, should she be allowed to marry him? Please don't argrue that it is not the same thing. It most certainly is. SEX was intended for a man and a woman. That is why we have parts that go together. When two men have sex with each other, they just emulate heterosexual sex. When two women have sex, the just emulate heterosexual sex. Think about it, they use a plastic or rubber PENIS!!!!! A man puts his penis into an opening and moves back and forth imitating copulation.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by deesw
No madness, I am implying that they don't deserve rights because they can't get married. You are asking to change all the laws of family and marriage so some homosexuals can get someone's pinsion or other monies?


not all the laws, just 1 clause inside of 1 law



That is freakin rediculous. If they want to be gay, fine, but why make it public and whine and cry to get benefits and monies?


whine and cry?
with all the discrimination they've gone through in this nation's history, i think they have every right to do so
they want to make it public because everyone has a right to be themselves in public
they deserve the benefits and money because they aren't CHOOSING to be gay, as there is no evidence to prove this is true, and they love each other



It sounds to me like the homosexual community wants the rest of the world to accept them as right so they can accept themselves.


or maybe they just want to be treated like people instead of like perverted freaks




The Bible says nowhere that inter racial marriage is wrong.


so?
the bible has no say in american politics
it's called a seperation of church and state



Why do you think there are men and women on this planet?


the evolution of the Y chromosome



If we had been intended to be homosexual there would be only men or women.


then what about the homosexual animals in the world?



If the family laws are broken, then what next? I read a news article the other day about a woman that wants to marry her dog.


are you actually comparing homoesexuality to BESTIALITY?



With the traditional family destroyed according to the law, should she be allowed to marry him? Please don't argrue that it is not the same thing. It most certainly is.


wow, that is horribly bigoted
interspecies relations are most definately not the same thing as intragender relations



SEX was intended for a man and a woman. That is why we have parts that go together. When two men have sex with each other, they just emulate heterosexual sex. When two women have sex, the just emulate heterosexual sex. Think about it, they use a plastic or rubber PENIS!!!!! A man puts his penis into an opening and moves back and forth imitating copulation.


i just want to ask you, what about all the instances of homosexuality in the animal kingdom?
does it not prove that homosexuality is natural?



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