EYE-OPENER..Universal HealthCare In America Would Be Surprisingly Inexpensive.!

originally posted by: ketsuko
Places in Canada have 6 month wait times for things like an MRI. You better hope you aren't needing that test because you might have an aggressive cancer.

I had an aggressive cancer. Got my MRI quick-fast. Got cured for $32 out of pocket. You need an MRI fast, you get an MRI fast. You can wait to accommodate those in urgent need, you will likely wait. Payday? Flash one of these. (racially ambiguous female not included).
Deductible? We don' need no steenkin' deductible!
I cannot find a Canadian who would swap systems with you. If the rest of the world can figure it out, I'm sure you guys can too.
Oh...fun fact? After America broke Iraq and put it back together again? The Iraqis got their universal health care back. On your dime.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: ketsuko
Places in Canada have 6 month wait times for things like an MRI. You better hope you aren't needing that test because you might have an aggressive cancer.

I had an aggressive cancer. Got my MRI quick-fast. Got cured for $32 out of pocket. You need an MRI fast, you get an MRI fast. You can wait to accommodate those in urgent need, you will likely wait. Payday? Flash one of these. (racially ambiguous female not included).

Deductible? We don' need no steenkin' deductible!
I cannot find a Canadian who would swap systems with you. If the rest of the world can figure it out, I'm sure you guys can too.
Oh...fun fact? After America broke Iraq and put it back together again? The Iraqis got their universal health care back. On your dime.

I'm so very glad you are a member here. Thank you for talking common sense.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: jefwane


The bottom line reason why drugs, medical tests, hospitals, and medical treatments cost so much in America, is simply because these charges get paid.

If every American was put on a Government-run health plan tomorrow that paid medical providers 30%-50% less than what they receive now, the costs would be less. But there would be unfortunate consequences that most Americans would not be willing to put up with for long.

At a glance that sounds good, most respond favorably to ideas like that without much thought, that's a problem.

Replacement of many smaller monopolies with one huge monopoly is not a solution.

It's a disaster.

Single payer has estimates of 45% higher taxes, if not then eventual rationing. If the government dictated costs in such a way then few if any would perform the service leading to creation of a huge beauracracy to manage and perform healthcare.

People on economic margins will figure out how to avoid massive tax load by not working or working less in order to receive benefits for free or at reduced cost.

A sharp long-term recession will result as markets respond. Instead of a correction occurring the malaise will remain as government vacuums up resources to run Heathcare monopolies. None of the savings will make it to mainstreet, even as mainstreet pays the costs via taxation. There will be no redeployment of money to more productive use.

If laws we have now were applied as they should be (two SCOTUS cases say they apply) to medical industry we'd have same recession but money would quickly redeploy to productive endeavors that will employ those displaced from healthcare administration, insurance and other non care givers back on mainstreet resulting in booming economy.

Medical would be brought back to traditional 3+% of GDP.

You'd not have need for insurance to cover normal medical care nor would you need it for minor surgical procedures.

You'd only need it for chronic or catastrophic care.

Pre-existing conditions would go away as those policies would not be conditional on employment, they'd stay with you.

Then government (taxpayers) could well afford safety net costs of the poor, disabled or otherwise compromised people's treatment.

All that with no new legislation, no mandatory taxes, no growing beauracracy.

Only reason this not done is it leaves money in your pocket instead of lining the greedy corporate and politicians pockets.

Single payer continues that pocket lining on much more massive scale, just because you spread cost further doesn't fix the problems.

a reply to: Phoenix

That's my biggest fear of any single payer system. I don't know if we can get it all the way down to the 3-4% of GDP, but we could definitely beat the OECD average of 9.5% which would free up massive amounts of capital for other productive endeavors. Imagine a country where that $10,000 premium becomes $9000 or more in yearly savings to start a business, save for kids college, retire on before 70, or things we can't even imagine due to how much is currently spent on healthcare.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Do you live in a city?

a reply to: jefwane

Imagine a country where teh government tells you is pays for treatment y because that treatment works for around 70% of the people who have your condition and it's the most cost effective. Too bad you are in the 30% who derive no benefit from it. Then you know there are other treatments out there that could be tried for you, some of them maybe even more effective than treatment y and with less side effects, but the government won't allow them because they cost more.

So your choices are to figure out how to leave the government system entirely for everything, which may or may not be legal in your country, or to figure out how to emigrate from your country to one that has that treatment available ... or to suffer, maybe die depending on what your condition is because that's how it is.

I know ... I know ... but that's what I have now, you say, sure, but at least now, I can seek a different company or policy (assuming Obamacare hasn't killed all the choices in your area through cost or over-regulation) or I could always opt to purchase that other treatment outside my plan (remember, it might not be legal with government run) and the company sometimes will have drug assistance plans to help me with it.

But, hey! I'm sure none of that will ever happen to any of you, so why not?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Do you live in a city?

Nope, but I have and I have friends and family that currently do. You know, you can twist yourself into all kinds of knots to represent our system as inferior in some manner...but it works. (And I know of Americans coming here for cutting-edge treatments simply not available in the US).
All I'm saying is that y'all can achieve a better system but it will call for your politicians to stop selling your bests interests off to the highest bidder. So...it all comes back to you. Doesn't matter how jigged your system is, these clowns need to be elected or they're back selling cars (or whatever). They will respond to an angry electorate.

I wouldn't have a problem with universal healthcare if EVERYONE paid their FAIR share. The problem is We have idiots that want the tax payer to pay for everything when the tax payer more than likely gets no social spending whatsoever. You might not think 9k a year per family is a lot but I can assure You that would put the majority of middle class families out of their homes and living on the street. You also seem to forget when the government is due their money they don't give a flying crap if You are undergoing a family emergency and they are more than happy to force You to pay 30% APR interest until they get their money. Oh and unless You are confused that loan is held by a private bank which means the IRS is a fascist organization but then again You liberals can care less as long as someone is being raped by the IRS.

a reply to: ketsuko

I think you need to reread the posts in my thread. I could live with a single payer, but prefer a market driven approach . The only criteria I have for either is that cost must be addressed. Treat healthcare like every other business, enforce consumer protections, binding quotes and pricing, break the Cartels and Mini-Monopolies, enforce laws already on the books to address such against the healthcare industries. Routine care becomes affordable out of pocket, insurance for catastrophic and chronic ailments becomes a fraction of the current cost of insurance. The government is able to afford care for the truly indigent at prices a fraction of what they are now via treasury payments and a tax lien against future tax returns and windfalls that might actually be repaid. Medicare becomes something that actually has value for those enrolled. Medicaid disappears and is replaced by the government picking up the reasonable cost of services and attaching a tax lien agains future returns and windfalls exempting most of ones Social Security.An 80/20 government patient split (what medicare was always promised to be) becomes affordable to most even without a supplemental which would still exist though at a fraction of current cost to the citizen enrolled.

My biggest fear with any government plan is we get exactly what you describe with the taxpayer on the hook for outrageously priced care that is rife with fraud, graft, coersion, extortion, and monopolist practices.

I'll say it again NO PLAN, MARKET BASED, GOVERNMENT BASED, OR HYBRID THAT DOES NOT ADDRESS THE WAY HEALTHCARE IN THE US iIS PRICED HAS A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL OF WORKING.

a reply to: jefwane

The True Face of Healthcare Reform


Link details what I've oft repeated in many threads.

Great read!

a reply to: Phoenix

Read it earlier, Denninger's work has really influenced my thoughts on healthcare reform. Most everything else I see is easily proven BS and obsfucation of how the status quo continue.

a reply to: jefwane

Seems people have had media and politicians ingrain insurance / government as solution to point of pavlovian brain washing where when a true permanent solution is presented they immediately shut down or repeat same falsehoods over and over and over.

originally posted by: Phoenix
a reply to: jefwane

Seems people have had media and politicians ingrain insurance / government as solution to point of pavlovian brain washing where when a true permanent solution is presented they immediately shut down or repeat same falsehoods over and over and over.

My reluctance is that our government has proven that it will take our money, misappropriate the funds, and then end up in bigger and bigger deficits. I don't trust our government to take our money and fund healthcare properly based on its track record.

originally posted by: jefwane
a reply to: Phoenix

Read it earlier, Denninger's work has really influenced my thoughts on healthcare reform. Most everything else I see is easily proven BS and obsfucation of how the status quo continue.

The graph showing 3000+% in hospital administration vs a doubling of physicians since 1970 should be enough to prove cost is problem just on that statistic alone.

Everything he said about non profits is true, my deceased spouse was a program director and I got lots of sausage making data told to me.

If our government wasn't corrupt and there were checks and balances to assure that...I would have no problem with this. But that simply isn't the case. Just looking at the Obama administration, they decided to do whatever they pleased and lied to the people daily. They utilized the IRS to attack republican groups and businesses. The IRS then lied under oath to hide it. Louis Lerner then pleaded the 5th because she couldn't tell the truth with incriminating herself. Clinton and Obama schemed and got Americans killed in Benghazi and then Rice when on TV, under orders to continue to spread the lie. And I could go on for hours.

Here is the problem. You don't give control of something as personally important to someone you don't trust. You don't give loads of money to people who have been proven to waste it, pocket it or direct it toward others who will in turn, owe them favors.

Government is NOT the place for healthcare and insurance. Our government CAN NOT BE TRUSTED! Why trust them with our money and our lives?

It is simply stupidity.

originally posted by: Throes

originally posted by: Phoenix
a reply to: jefwane

Seems people have had media and politicians ingrain insurance / government as solution to point of pavlovian brain washing where when a true permanent solution is presented they immediately shut down or repeat same falsehoods over and over and over.

My reluctance is that our government has proven that it will take our money, misappropriate the funds, and then end up in bigger and bigger deficits. I don't trust our government to take our money and fund healthcare properly based on its track record.

The U.S. Government does a good job with Medicare. People in their early 60's count the months until they can kiss private insurance good-bye. Their older friends on Medicare often tease them (in fun of course) about how little they paid for their treatment, surgery, therapy, medication, etc..

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Throes

originally posted by: Phoenix
a reply to: jefwane

Seems people have had media and politicians ingrain insurance / government as solution to point of pavlovian brain washing where when a true permanent solution is presented they immediately shut down or repeat same falsehoods over and over and over.

My reluctance is that our government has proven that it will take our money, misappropriate the funds, and then end up in bigger and bigger deficits. I don't trust our government to take our money and fund healthcare properly based on its track record.

The U.S. Government does a good job with Medicare. People in their early 60's count the months until they can kiss private insurance good-bye. Their older friends on Medicare often tease them (in fun of course) about how little they paid for their treatment, surgery, therapy, medication, etc..

How have they done with Social Security and Defense Spending? The Military lost what, $6.5 Trillion dollars? Social security has been raped and pillaged. No thanks.

Medicare better give the best return, it's another US Government Ponzi.

originally posted by: Throes

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Throes

originally posted by: Phoenix
a reply to: jefwane

Seems people have had media and politicians ingrain insurance / government as solution to point of pavlovian brain washing where when a true permanent solution is presented they immediately shut down or repeat same falsehoods over and over and over.

My reluctance is that our government has proven that it will take our money, misappropriate the funds, and then end up in bigger and bigger deficits. I don't trust our government to take our money and fund healthcare properly based on its track record.

The U.S. Government does a good job with Medicare. People in their early 60's count the months until they can kiss private insurance good-bye. Their older friends on Medicare often tease them (in fun of course) about how little they paid for their treatment, surgery, therapy, medication, etc..

How have they done with Social Security and Defense Spending? The Military lost what, $6.5 Trillion dollars? Social security has been raped and pillaged. No thanks.

Medicare better give the best return, it's another US Government Ponzi.

Label Medicare however you like. In the real-world, Medicare beneficiaries are happy with it, and the Government-Private Medicare Advantage program too.

Since Americans are so polarized on this subject, the best solution for those under age 65 in America, is a 2 track system. 1.) Government Coverage for those who want it. 2.) Private Coverage for those who want it. This would make the majority of citizens happy, if implemented properly for our diverse populations.

Here's a list of countries that have a "two-tier" insurance/healthcare system for all citizens.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: carewemust

The government obviously could do 10X better on medicare if it would uphold legitimate law.

If government upheld law then medicare wouldn't look so attractive after all.

a reply to: FuggleHop

lol at people that use this argument still.

There's other countries that have higher and better levels of everything over America.

We are like number one in obesity. That's it.

Better education, schools, less pollution, less crime, even more millionaires and entrepreneurs and such exist in many European and Nordic countries. They have their faults... Faults that honestly the biggest economy in the world could likely tackle and fix.

But keep it up with the communistic boogeyman... You're sure to never allow us to progress at all. Good job.