what does freedom mean to you

originally posted by: chiefsmom
a reply to: DarkvsLight29

I could do it where I am too, but even if I did there, in the middle of nowhere, if the wrong person caught wind of it, I would be in trouble.

So that is not freedom.

True.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: TinySickTears

freedom is being able to do anything that does not infringe upon the rights of others.

ill buy that to a point.
lets go back to the plant thing.

i cant grow it and enjoy it even though it does not infringe on others rights....you know

but depending on how you look at it i can do it i will just be jailed for it.

i know that is your definition and i appreciate it.
i would like to amend it though.

freedom is being able to do anything that does not infringe on the rights of others and in doing those things you will not be imprisoned for them.

a reply to: TinySickTears

freedom is "the right to be wrong if I choose" to quote Gilbert O'Sullivan.

Well there is certainly no such thing as 'complete freedom' and there never will be... unless you buy an island and live there alone (because even having just one other person means you have to take them into account when making decisions/actions).

For me, I accept these constraints, as someone who lives within a society.

So then we are into an area that is more like "what makes you feel free?".

For me, playing music is the closest feeling I can have to being totally free.

Liberty

1.
the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's behaviour or political views.
"compulsory retirement would interfere with individual liberty"
synonyms: independence, freedom, autonomy, sovereignty, self government, self rule, self determination, home rule; More
2.
a right or privilege, especially a statutory one.
"the Bill of Rights was intended to secure basic civil liberties"
synonyms: right, birthright, opportunity, facility, prerogative, entitlement, privilege, permission, sanction, leave, consent, authorization, authority, licence, clearance, blessing, dispensation, exemption, faculty; carte blanche
"no man who was born free would be contented to be penned up and denied the liberty to go where he pleases"


eg , he doesn't have freedom to enjoy a plant due to the oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on his liberties .

Liberty then perhaps more important to understand , we're all learning

originally posted by: TinySickTears i would like to amend it though.

freedom is being able to do anything that does not infringe on the rights of others and in doing those things you will not be imprisoned for them.

BS laws. Is why I disagree with many of them.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: TinySickTears i would like to amend it though.

freedom is being able to do anything that does not infringe on the rights of others and in doing those things you will not be imprisoned for them.

BS laws. Is why I disagree with many of them.

as do i
i was not consulted about them when they were written and did not agree to them
yet if i break them i lose my freedom

originally posted by: TinySickTears
might as well post the definition

the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

imprisoning me after i do something is a hindrance or restraint.

curious to all of your opinions on what it means to be free or have freedom.

That's where we are differing in views.

Imprisonment after the fact didn't hinder or restrain you from said actions.

You're free to break the laws, social or legal.
The threat of punishment doesn't actually physically stop you. It's SUPPOSED to deter you, but it doesn't stop you.

True unadulterated freedom across all boards looks like anarchy. But even in an anarchic society, there are still consequences.

originally posted by: ZIPMATT

Liberty

1.
the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's behaviour or political views.
"compulsory retirement would interfere with individual liberty"
synonyms: independence, freedom, autonomy, sovereignty, self government, self rule, self determination, home rule; More
2.
a right or privilege, especially a statutory one.
"the Bill of Rights was intended to secure basic civil liberties"
synonyms: right, birthright, opportunity, facility, prerogative, entitlement, privilege, permission, sanction, leave, consent, authorization, authority, licence, clearance, blessing, dispensation, exemption, faculty; carte blanche
"no man who was born free would be contented to be penned up and denied the liberty to go where he pleases"


eg , he doesn't have freedom to enjoy a plant due to the oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on his liberties .

Liberty then perhaps more important to understand , we're all learning

Yes, I agree. I learned something new from your post. Thanks!

@OP: Thanks for the thread - some thoughtful responses and will attempt to provide some of my takes on "freedom" and "liberty".

Given the constraints of living in a society I think the nearest we can come to freedom is not to be answerable to anyone else in our personal lives.

I like being alone and responsible for my own actions. To decide for myself how I'm going to spend my day. How I'm going to spend my money.

To not have to ask anyone's permission or include them in the process of decision making.

That's freedom for me.

Freedom is actually having ownership; over yourself, your purchases, and your children.

You can say I own that house or this car or that land, but you don't. Nobody owns anything as all assests are subject to repossession under the bankruptcy of the United States in 1933, should the nation default on its loans. The debt coupons you earn and spend do not grant you ownership over ANYTHING. You can never be free as a debtor. Even if you claim to be debt free, everything you think you own was purchased with debt and therefore subject to repossession for the reason(s) stated previously.

Permits, licences, taxes, PRIVILEGES! are all used to further ensnare one into the bankruptcy itself. We are given excuses that they are needed for roads, schools, municipal expenditures, etc. Are any of these doing better? No. It is merely another excise tax to cover the interest on municipal and state loans which will never be paid back.

Freedom may have existed at one point, in its purest form, but then human nature came along and imprisoned us all.

a reply to: DarkvsLight29

Freedom is going to sleep at night and waking up in the morning knowing your safe.

I could do that in jail??
Changes the way you look at freedom doesn't it??

Freedom

Political and religious - Freedom to criticise, satirise, blaspheme, question and vote.
Personal - Freedom to be straight, gay or anything you like. Go to the pub and laugh.

Freedom should mean the freedom to say and do what you want as long as that doesn't interfere with anothers freedom.

One mans freedom, liberty, equality end where the next mans begin.

But instead of that we have burdensome, bureaucratic, regulatory gubment that limits our freedoms for us so that what we do and say has to be applied for in advance. There are forms, licensing, permits, fees and heavy fines if you don't follow freedom's regulations.

originally posted by: TinySickTears
im not looking for a legal definition or anything like that.
looking for what it means to each of you personally.

im asking because i have been struggling with this the past few days after participating in some of the threads.

i keep seeing people post things like

"you are free to do _____ but you will have to deal with the consequences"

that does not make sense to me.

for me, if i am free to do something it means i will continue to be free after i do it.
is that not what it means to you

someone posted to me saying you are free to murder your neighbor but you will have to face the consequences.
of course if you do that you should be in jail. obviously. fact is though you are not free to do that cause you will be imprisoned for it.

another post about a lady with a dui said "she was free to refuse a sobriety test but if she did things would have been worse"

how is that free to do it then?

of course i am not saying i want to do the things i mentioned.
we live in a free country. we are free to do as we please. of course that means within the laws of our society.

the opposite of freedom is imprisonment or enslavement.

if something you do causes you to be imprisoned or enslaved then you are not free to do it.
if you are free to do it then you would not be imprisoned for doing it.

thats how it works in my head. maybe i am way off so i figure i would ask.

so what is being free mean to you?

Human equality/egalitarianism. (In regards to the social contract)

Freedom from your dread/peace of mind (in regards to your personal freedom)

Can you be more free in prison with a clear mind than a person outside of prison but a prisoner of their own thoughts?

It's hard to say but I think those two things at the same time freedom of your own demons, and equality in society.

originally posted by: essentialtremors


That's where we are differing in views.

Imprisonment after the fact didn't hinder or restrain you from said actions.

i get what you are saying and yeah, we disagree here.

the possibility of being imprisoned after the fact hinders and restrains me from doing all sorts of things.
lots of things i dont do because i dont want to be imprisoned for doing them.

originally posted by: berenike
Given the constraints of living in a society I think the nearest we can come to freedom is not to be answerable to anyone else in our personal lives.

I like being alone and responsible for my own actions. To decide for myself how I'm going to spend my day. How I'm going to spend my money.

To not have to ask anyone's permission or include them in the process of decision making.

That's freedom for me.

i like that. good personal definition.

as someone else said they feel you should be free to do things as long as they dont infringe on anothers rights. i agree with that.
there are all sorts of things in the states that we will go to jail for doing even though they do not infringe on anothers rights.

the plant thing
the high fence thing
couple examples.

hell gay marriage....

freedom huh?

this free country blocks us from doing all sorts of things that do not infringe on others rights or freedoms.

i am not allowed legally to enjoy that plant...does not infringe on anyone.
many states do not allow gay marriage. how does two people getting married infringe on others.

i appreciate all the responses. it is something i have been thinking about a lot lately.

and drumsrfun, nice on.....
it does change ones perspective


the whole imprisonment after the fact is what i am stuck on.
in my apparently warped mind if something i do will land me in jail then i am not free to do it.

everyone on the planet has free will. i guess if we exercise it in many aspects we lose our actual freedom.
not really a choice when it is 'forced'...


as i said there things i would like to do(and many i actually do) but i do not because i do not want to be imprisoned.
making the choice not to do something for fear of going to jail does not really seem like a choice...

for me

Riding my lawnmower with muh shotgun in one hand and a cold beer(who am i kidding, whiskey ) in the other listening to patriotic music like the casualties or something.
'Murica!

For me freedom means lack of fear.

That said, I have found two schools of thought about freedom:

1) Those that want freedom to do whatever they want

and those that,

2) Want to be free from the dominance of outside influences.

I believe these are both, ultimately, the same desire, the same fundamental need expressed in different ways.

But the 'devil', it is said, is in the details and this is where a more nuanced use of the word is required.

Questions:

Where is the border between your freedom and the freedom of another?
Who gets to decide?
What is the ultimate objective - personal freedom or group freedom?

And now to address your, rather disturbing, example in the OP:

someone posted to me saying you are free to murder your neighbor but you will have to face the consequences.
of course if you do that you should be in jail. obviously. fact is though you are not free to do that cause you will be imprisoned for it.

another post about a lady with a dui said "she was free to refuse a sobriety test but if she did things would have been worse"

how is that free to do it then?

If is a fact of our universe (and I include both the physical and spiritual) that any action (physical, verbal and mental/emotional) has consequences. Some of which are readily apparent and some of which are not.

You may 'get away' with murder and thereby be 'free' on a physical level but you still have impacted the freedom of others. Even more over you will never be free from the mental and other consequences of that act.

Now to be fair, that sort of absolute freedom, is what is meant by transcendence, enlightenment, or ascension (to use just a few possible terms).

We live a relative world and have to find our way here - it is not productive to imagine life in an absolute reality except as a distraction from the real.

originally posted by: TinySickTears
im not looking for a legal definition or anything like that.
looking for what it means to each of you personally.

im asking because i have been struggling with this the past few days after participating in some of the threads.

i keep seeing people post things like

"you are free to do _____ but you will have to deal with the consequences"

that does not make sense to me.

for me, if i am free to do something it means i will continue to be free after i do it.
is that not what it means to you

someone posted to me saying you are free to murder your neighbor but you will have to face the consequences.
of course if you do that you should be in jail. obviously. fact is though you are not free to do that cause you will be imprisoned for it.

another post about a lady with a dui said "she was free to refuse a sobriety test but if she did things would have been worse"

how is that free to do it then?

of course i am not saying i want to do the things i mentioned.
we live in a free country. we are free to do as we please. of course that means within the laws of our society.

the opposite of freedom is imprisonment or enslavement.

if something you do causes you to be imprisoned or enslaved then you are not free to do it.
if you are free to do it then you would not be imprisoned for doing it.

thats how it works in my head. maybe i am way off so i figure i would ask.

so what is being free mean to you?

freedom is when I can quit my job and start another.

freedom is when I can start my own business. or close it and work for someone else.

freedom is when I can go to the church of my choosing. or stay home.

freedom is when I can listen to whatever music and troll whatever web site as long as I don't disturb someone else.

freedom is when I can celebrate a religious (or not) holiday.

freedom is when I can pack up and move to another street/city/county/state. or stay where I am.

freedom is when I can slow cook some ribs without the food police hassling me. or be a vegatarian.

freedom is when I can hop in my vehicle and go cruising. I'll agree to obey the traffic laws and no drinking.

freedom is when I can keep a firearm in my house. just in case. (23 years and never had to use it, but its there)

freedom is when I can choose my friends.

freedom is when I can choose my mate. or fly solo.

summary; freedom is when I can do what I want, as long as it doesn't disturb someone else, or interfere with their freedom.
good thread OP